From SR page 62
"Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 189); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 238)."

From SR page 189
"A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it."

I just want to make sure I am not missing something in the math here.

Lets say we have a character Joe Schmuckatellie. And poor Joe has an Essence of 1 and Magic of 1, for whatever reason. (Formally having a Magic and Essence of 6 and then running into the vampire hooker, or being a cybermonkey with Latent Awakening, ect ect)

Now, Joe initiates to grade 1. His new Magic maximum is 2 (Essence 1 + initiation grade 1). Joe spends karma to raise his Magic to a 2.
Since his Magic is now a 2. He can now eligible to buy a grade 2 Initiation.

Joe initiates to grade 2. His new Magic maximum is 3 (Essence 1 + initiation grade 2). Joe spends karma to raise his Magic to a 3.
Since his Magic is now a 3. He can now eligible to buy a grade 3 Initiation.

Rinse, repeat.

Given these conditions, an Essence 1 character has no real limit on his Initiation Grade or Magic, as long as he has time and karma.
If he saves up his money along the way, he could even get that nasty essence loss fixed, to avoid said hooker coming back and using his one remaining essense like a Sip-Up.

Vampire JoyGrrls.

For those, you gotta pay extra.

Yes, as long as a magic characters essence remains at 1 or greater, they can always max out their magic and then initiate, and continue as long as they have the karma to do so. Once their essence drops below 1, they get stuck at where they're at.

As I understand it, Initiation maximum is based off your current magic rating, not including any initiations you have. Initiation acts as a bonus to magic equal to your magic rating.

Say you have magic 2 and initiate. You then want to raise your magic attribute. You pay for the increase from 2 to 3, not 3 to 4. Initiation raises your maximum magic rating, but I would restrict the levels of initiation based on the natural maximum, minus anything from essence loss. Otherwise you end up with cybertanks sporting high end magic ratings and initiatory abilities.

Well, it will cost the cybertank buko points though. He has to spend build points to max out his Magic at character creation, before he can start sacrificing it to the great god Cyber.

Unless he goes with Latent Awakening. Then he is spending lots of Karma. Not only to initiate and raise the Magic attribute, but also buying the magic skills he is gonna use to fuel said magic skill.

*nods* At the level of karma we are talking about, everyone else should be able to keep up.

Chris

Nope. Current Magic rating, period.


Nope. It increases your maximum magic rating, not your current.


You've got it right here, how did you come to your previous conclusions?


Your call, GM, but IMO that's pretty harsh given the amount karma being poured on. Initiating five times AND buying up Magic to match isn't cheap. Plus, since cybering away 5 points of Essence costs quite a bit of cash, this "cybertank initiate" isn't likely to be packing any of the stuff you expect a high-end mage to have. High-end foci aren't cheap (and cost yet more karma, slowing down the initiation cycle), and binding materials are consumed, not collected.

Zaranthan, don't forget that in previous editions Initiation added to your Magic rating. But you didn't have to pay to raise the Magic Rating.

In SR4, it only raises the max by +1. You still have to pay to raise Magic up.

Given the following example:

Mag: 3
Ess: 6
Init: 3

The mage would have to raise his Magic by +1 in order to initiate. Now keep in mind that since Essence is 6, his max Magic rating would be equal to Essence + Initiation Ranks.

So your functional caps are like so...

Magic Rating (max) = Essence (rounded down to nearest whole number) + Initiation ranks
Initiation Ranks (max) = Current Magic Rating

So like was said earlier, as long as you keep 1+ Essence on hand, you can still Initiate and continue to raise your Magical power. Let it drop below 1 Essence (but obviously greater than 0 Essence) and you lose ranks of Initiation & Metamagics until your Initiate Ranks = Current Magic Rating.

=========

Which leads me to the following question... if a mage were to be reduced to 0.5 Essence due to injury/disease/etc but had Initiated twice and raised their magic attribute twice (assuming max magic initially, this would leave Initiate 2 / Magic 2 / Essence 0.5)... Would the mage be able to take the Essence restoration treatments to get back above 1 Essence and therefore be able to continue Initiating or are they forever barred from Initiation after having crossed below 1 Essence?

I would be inclined to say no as once Max Magic is reduced, it doesn't go back up except by Initiation. With the above example, the mage could NOT initiate further as max Initiation = Magic Rating. In this example, Current Magic Rating is equal to Max Magic Rating. But as a nice guy, if the mage is spending that kind of money & karma, I'd be inclined to be a little nice.

Aha! That explains a lot of confusion I've seen here and there. Thanks for the tip!


Very elegant. This is why every chapter of the BBB needed a quick reference page. So many of the systems are extraordinarily simple, but each piece of the puzzle is in a different section. Learning SR4 is like playing The Secret of Monkey Island: nothing makes sense until you get through the entire game.


I'm with you on this one. The book states that once your Magic rating is reduced to zero, you lose touch with the spirit world forever. Your magical active skills become knowledge skills, and you become a mundane. Pretty harsh, but I guess one of the risks of being a metal mage is increased risk from Essence drain.

Sorry, double posted when I tried to fix a typo

SR4 page 62
"For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that
attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 189)"

SR4 page 164
"Anything that reduces a character’s Essence will also reduce Magic. For every point (or fraction thereof ) of Essence lost, the character’s Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one. A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5. Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character’s Magic again until Essence drops below 5.
If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer perform any kind of magic. The magician has “burned out,� losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills."

SR4 page 189
"A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it."

In previous editions it did clearly say that once a character's Essence drops below one they loose the connection to magic and are no longer magically active. But, in 4th edition that isnt explicitely said. It is all related to magic.

For instance. A character is a Magic 8, Essence 6 and Initiate Grade 4. If, for whatever reason, his essence was dropped down to 0.5 essence. By, the RAW of 4th edition rules, he would then have Magic 2 and Initiation Grade 2.