I like the Adepts and Geasa optional rule from Street Magic, and after reading it - and the base geasa rules - I was left wondering if it would be reasonable to take multiple Geasa on any particular adept power with the breaking of any one of them shutting down the power. Here is the wording of the optional rule:

Adepts and Geasa
For a more adept-driven game, gamemasters may allow adepts to voluntarily take a geas for a specific adept power; in return, the Power Point cost for that power is reduced by 25 percent (round normally). In this case, breaking the geasa only affects that power; the adepts remaining geasa-limited powers are unaffected.

My question is whether or not it would be damaging to the game to allow multiple applications of this on a given power. Using the typical adding of "-xx%" that we've seen in SR4, this would mean that two geasa on a power would reduce its Power Point cost by 50% and three Geasa on a power would reduce its Power Point cost by 75%. No more than three geasa can apply to any given power -nothing is free. As usual, the GM would have to decide if the geas is appropriate and meaningful and can disallow any combination deemed abusive.

Does this seem reasonable?

Disclaimer: My players do have a particular fondness for Adepts and would like more options in varying them and fine-tuning the details.

You could get some very broken builds with people taking the same 3 geasa for most of their powers.

Just be careful what they take as a Geas, that's all. Like, if they say ''Increased Reflexes 3, and I have, uhh...3 talisman geas...or 2 talisman geas and I can only use it at night''...then I'd tell them to come up with something else. (Now, if they took Increased 3 and ONE of them, that's totally cool.) I would say as long as the multiple geasa per power were all different(I mean, if someone wants to take 3 talisman geasa for 3 DIFFERENT powers its fine, but make sure that each power can't stack the same geasa).

That way, I think it could work, your adept-liking players could possibly get a few more toys to play with, but at the same time, it indeed has a drawback(break 1 geas and they all go.)

If someone wanted Increased Reflex 3 and they had it on Talisman, Night, AND a third one(fasting, for example); I think it'd be ok. The fasting geas might prove to be fun(do you not eat for 24 hours, be hungry as hell but have your superspeed? or...)

I played a Troll phys ad with Killing Hands (D) and a geas on it that he could only do stun damage. He also had the pacifist flaw. Over-damage to physical made him practically sick, think severe allergy. He was fun. And yes, there was a back-story reason for both.

You want something like that if he is taking more than one geas to a power. It should make sense for the character and not be unballancing in your game.

That's actually really cool. So he could do hella stun damage...but hated to even brush the light physical. Nice touch.

I wouldn't let it fly, just because it's way too easy to get around a geas. Even selecting three different geasa, while it might seem balanced in theory, can break very quickly. Also, you'll be running around with adepts who have about three times as many effective power points as everyone else, with the attendant dicepools. Adepts can have disgusting dicepools to begin with, so this can be a serious problem.

One thing I do like is to put geasa on levels of a power. So, you buy Improved Ability 1 and 2 as normal, but geas the cost on level 3. That allows "powerups" when the right conditions are met. So, you're nasty with a pistol; but you're downright deadly with your grandfather's Warhawk in your hand.

Thats were the GM aproval of the geas comes in.

GMs can still be outsmarted. It wouldn't be the first time someone brought a seemingly-innocuous combination into a game, only to find out how horrifyingly game-breaking it can be. You can't expect every GM to be able to catch every little trick a player can come up with. And then, since the character has been approved, removing the problem becomes even more difficult, since you already said yes to it once.

Just make sure that the condition of the geasa comes into play when it should and if that isn't enough, bring it up more often without looking like your picking on the PC. That tends to piss off the player.

Just apply strict geas rules, as in mythology.

Yeah, I generally dislike geas, unless there is a very good reason for the person to have it. A reason for having three would be tough for me to accept and would have to limit the power to such an extent that it was only useful outside of combat and negotiations.

It also depends on the power. No way am I allowing it on the big ones, generally I'll allow one geas if the player has a reason, but I can't see anyone convincing me that three geas on improved reflexes is playable. I could see something like a tracker character having traceless walk with three geas. One for surface (snow only), one for time (day or night, not winter in this case), and one for location (his home range). That is something I would let a character play, assuming the home range was not the prime location the group played in. As a GM I'd love something like that, because the plot hook is so juicy it begs to be used at some point.

The one thing something like this absolutely requires is a good player. If the downsides are not roleplayed the upsides are overpowered. When I played the Troll for instance - if he did physical damage I would play him as distracted and muttering under his breath for the rest of the run. He actually got sent home once, because he was becoming too big a distraction. The funny thing is, the whole group loved it, including me. Even though the run was made a bit harder and I wasn't actively playing for a good chunk of the session, it just played right.

True enough. I mean, doing Deadly Stun damage and having a big punch behind it is, well, powerful. Stun damage takes someone out of a fight just as easily. That little quirk you added balanced him, in that sometimes he might roll too well and cross over to physical...and then, bang. I could have seen that taking some careful balancing of ''Success Pulling.'' (ie, pulling dice to hold back.)

I could see Reflexes with geasa like that if it was really character-centric. It would actually be kind of neat to see an adept with his Wired 3, BUT...

-Only usable at night, with the moon visible. It could be any moon(but the new moon). BTW...cloudy nights count against this. (This can be tied into something.) I would say being indoors is ok, as long as the moon is unobstructed in the sky. (You could maybe do something with windows here, if you wanted to tighten the leash a bit more.)
-Must be uninjured. One stun box filled and they shut off.
-Adept goes under the Combat Monster flaw while they are on. Sort of tied into the moon thing, they could have some sort of weird berserky thing going. BUT...they begin to fight sort of out there, and then a box of damage makes it shut off...yeah.

I dunno, something like that might actually balance out the massive reflexes.

Example of two geasa for a vampire adept's Improved Reflexes:

Condition Geasa (Berserk)
Ritual Geasa (Essence Drain)

Within 24 hours of using Essence Drain, the character can utilize the Improved Reflexes while also using his Berserk power.

Reasonable or broken?

I'd like it better with combat monster. The geas should not have an upside, otherwise you'd have Wired 3 (must be in combat). I can hear the munchkin cries of anguish "What? It's a conditional modifier."

If your player is getting pissed off because you're applying the rules fairly, then you've got a problem player. And a problem player shouldn't be allowed to have access to powerful house rules like that, because of the disruption potential. And then, you get into player-vs-player-vs-GM conflicts, because one player is allowed to use special house rules and another isn't. It's better to just avoid making powerful house rules in the first place.

I agree, something as potentially unballancing as a steep discount in an adept power should only be given to players that will actually accept the cost of the discount. If you are letting somethign like this in your game for the first time make it clear to the player that if you find it unballancing you will adjust it as you see fit. Make sure you both understand how the power and the geas should be played. If he complains ... well you are the GM and the magic loss rules are strict. Oh, I am so going to steal that. I'd have much less problem with this, as it only affects one level and the effect is much less unballancing.

[Edit: Oops. quoted the wrong text. ]
Heh, I've tried it in SR3, and it worked fine. Created some very cool moments, too.

Another option is to allow different geasa on different levels of a power. So, your Increase reflexes 1 works normally, level 2 requires a talisman, and level 3 requires a condition geas. This gets a bit complicated at times, but it can also be very cool to see in play.

Cain, think you quoted the wrong text there, guy.

I don't see why not. Astral perception costs a full power point for adepts (this is hard on mystics, I find). Just perception! Wall running too! 1/6th of your whole power points, and that's if you hard max. It's tough. Not to mention how much Wired 3 costs an adept.

Sams get graded ware, why not give adepts a similar boon?

I always thought wall running was reasonably priced. After all it's not something you can replicate with technology (and you can't count Gecko tape as it doesn't compare pace wise).

It really doesn't have that much utility, though. If you want to use it to get up a wall, then great leap and an athletics test would get you up there just as fast. Same with vertical wall running. It's just not that practical.

Traceless walk is quite similar. It's good, but 1 whole point? For that 1 point, you could get 50,000:nuyen:. It's good, but how often are you walking on sand? Sure, being silent is good, but for that 1 point you could buy four levels of improved ability infiltration.

It's not a game balance cost, it's a "cool" cost.

Hmm I see your point.

To be honest I've never worked out jumping details in enough detail to know if a character can actually go further than wall running allows. Which is probably somewhat silly of me as great leap is considerably cheaper and if three ranks are as effective then it saves points to buy something else with.

Traceless walk I would mainly say has it's cost from the ability to get past pressure pads and a few other electronic sensors. Which no matter how good your infiltration score is are going to be a problem for a sneaky character.

I'd say Traceless Walk is well-priced.

Wall Running, though...yeah, overpriced.

Smashing Blow is fair; it is a nice ability and lets you defeat barriers easier. Some may argue this is overpriced, but I think 1 point is about right.

Improved Attributes-horribly overpriced. IMO, it should be .5/level, period. I could even do away with the escalating cost of .5 up to natural max/1 afterware. .5 a level at least makes it SOMEWHAT worthwhile to get(but even then, picking up 1 point of bioware is STILL more cost effective). However, .25 for these are just too cheap. .5 seems to be the only real cost for it.

Improved Skills. Here's another spot with some discrepancy. They make the combat skills a bit more expensive, at .5 each. Physical, Social, Tech skills are cheaper. Now, I can kind of understand this...but oftentimes, it's the Social skills that have the most abuse here(and with Kinesics, they are VERY easy to stack). I could say that Tech/Physical can stay .25, while Combat AND Social are .5 each, it might be a better cost.

Astral Perception I'm torn on. While 1 point does seem a lot for something(it hurts Mystic Adepts worse than Adepts), it IS good. However, I don't see making it .5 something that would unbalance the game. The adept still(should) be careful poking into the astral, as their defenses aren't as good unless they buy some stuff like Mystic Armor and Astral Combat/Killing Hands/a Weapon Focus.

Blind fighting is nice(.5 points for a -2 in full darkness), but I kind of would like to change it to .25/level, and each .25 takes off a -1. So if you want to spend the full 1.5 points, you could get no penalty in the dark....but maybe it's better capped at level 4(so in full dark, you get -2). Might be kind of nice, I could see a great concept for a blind adept. 1.5 points is a fair amount to spend on this ability(but then again, it would take away the disadvantage for the Blind quality...then again, this wouldn't count for things like Ranged Dodge and the like, IMO. Im not sure how to handle that.)

Distance Strike is worth the 2 points, IMO. With the crazy unarmed DVs you can get with Critical Strike/Martial Arts, the fact you can treat it as ranged it a big ouch.

The rest of the powers I think are also well-priced, but it's just a handful of them, IMO, that are a bit overcost(and a couple undercost, but not many.)

We have considered doing this along with my other houserule on Improved Physical Attribute. If we do, then we may also adjest Improved Reflexes down to 1 point per level but it only grants IPs - you'll need to buy levels of Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) to get the Reaction bonuses, and your level of Improved Reflexes could not exceed your level of Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) - think of it as a prerequisite for Improved Reflexes. This would still make the combined levels cost 1.5/3/4.5 which isn't too far from where they are now, and it provides some reason for purchasing Improved Pysical Attribute (Reaction) which the current rules don't do.


The big kicker to Improved Ability in Social skills is the language limit. When using a non-native language, you'll be unable to employ a social skill above your language skill, so a 6 (9) is almost useless unless you have some languages at 9 (highly doubtful). Much better to go with Kinesics which just provides bonus dice and thus works around this barrier. I'd like to see Improved Ability be dropped to .25 for all applicable skills, Combat included, since a skill level should be cheaper than an Attribute (like Agility).

You know, I had forgotten about the Language thing. You're right; 2.5 would indeed be better, there.

I like the idea with Improved Reflexes. The full cost, you're right, isn't *that* much cheaper, but it still somehow sounds more enticing. I mean, 1.5 points instead of 2 isn't a massive change, but I dunno, I'd be much more willing to play a ''pure'' adept. I don't mind that adepts come out of the gate perhaps a BIT below the sam(if they stay pure, no ware), but right now, with the costs, they are substantially behind, and unless you play a long-ass campaign, enough to get a bunch of Karma for initating and upping the Magic skill(which means they can't spend it on much else)they are going to stay behind. With this method they won't be overpowering the sams at the start(and I'd still think the Sams still might have a bit of an extra edge in some ways).

Keep in mind, these are the 'Physical Adepts'. Social and Tech adepts do wonderfully at the start and continue to do so. It's just the physads have fallen a bit behind, IMO, unless they want to pick up some ware.

While hard rules don't provide a reason for doing so, it's conceivable that there could be an adept whose path would permit them to purchase Improved Reaction, but not Improved Reflexes.

Under the current rules, that would be the path of 'I want to intentionally gimp my character."

Consider two human adepts with Reaction 5 and Magic 5. One purchases Improved Reflexes 3 for 5 Power Points. He now has Reaction 5 (8) and 4 IPs. The other guy purchases Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) 3 for 5 Power Points. He has Reaction 5 (8) and 1 IP. That's pretty crappy balance to me.

Under my modifications, you can do it for much less cost compared to the Reflexes guy (1.5 Power Points vs. 4.5 Power Points), which is appropriate since you're getting much less.

It's not really gimping your character, so much as simply not improving as much. Of course, I've made plenty of adepts without Improved Reflexes, and never gotten Improved Reaction on any of them. I have thought about it though, and not at all in the context of gimping. Reaction has applications other than combat, whereas initiative passes don't. If your adept isn't oriented towards combat, you can do just as well getting Improved Reaction, and your GM would be well within his rights to penalize you as he sees fit if you took it.

Edit:

I think that my solution would be to just take the reaction boost away from Improved Reflexes, like it was in third edition, and just leave the cost. I'm not terribly opposed to having Improved Physical Attribute cost .5, either, and double if it's over the max.