I was just wondering if anyone knew what happened to the Kingdom of Hawai'i in SR4 setting. A nice vibrant community in earlier versions, with its own magic shamanistic traditions and such.

Fast forward to SR4. A good chunk of California falls into the ocean. I think the general 'real life' belief is that if something like that ever happened, Hawaii just sorta...well..dies. A tsunami generated from that magnitude of change would pretty much scrape the landscape off the islands.

Now I suppose in SR4, you could say that via magic, somehow Hawaii managed to avoid getting erased from the planet. But is there any info one way or the other on what happens to Hawaii? Or did the devs kill us?

No, California did not fall into the ocean. Yes, Hawai'i is still there, a reference to it was was in Corporate Enclaves.

Obviously Ancient is the go-to person here.

As I recall, the earthquake has some pretty weird stuff going with it, which reduced the overall effect of the quake (like the buildings still standing in water). Hawaii would not have todisappear when the other half of LA still exists.

I also liked the old version of Hawaii, and was reading up on the old adventure set there after someone asked for a translation of some slang from the module. I reckon it's one worth dusting off when the runners are fairly competent (they go there without any of their contacts or equipment and get very little from their contact there).

What about Guam? Can we just say it's a giant Bug Nest? Please?

From what I recall the local Admiral and troops decided not to go back when the UCAS sent out the recall notice to their troops all over the world and turned the place into a massice free port that anyone can use. Although I think it also said something about there being some sort of connection with the CAS and their being a bit anti-Aztlan/Aztechnology, but I can't be a hundred percent sure about that.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Guam is now a glorified Free City, run by the renegade UCAS garrison commander who refused to abandon the island when he and his command were recalled to the mainland.

In Paradise Lost Nigel Findely wrote a nice development of Hawaii, it was 3rd ed but since it's back ground no reason to think it can't keep the details.

The Kingdom of Hawaai broke away, with corporate help, from the USA and after a burst of Thorbolts and a massive mana activity "something fragging huge surtfaced near the Arizona" The USA had more important things to do. Hawaai exists happily with corporate activity well balance, no one trusts anyone else enough to let them get a big hold.

Surprisingly Hawaii was not gobbled up by Japanese expansion-the RL jump by the US in the 19th Century was to prevent it falling to the Japanese expansion before WW1. I know it's popular to say it was White agression but truth be told if the US hadn't done it, the Japanese would have.

So you have a lovely, tropical setting wit lots of corp intrigue. The other outstanding element was that population wise Hawaii had a particulaly large level of goblinization. I think something like 30% of the population are orks. This creates a very accepting environment.

Spoken like a Non Native(derogatory word), ranks right up there with:
If we had not bought the Slaves from Africa someone else would have.
We are civilizing these Native Americans by taking their land and moving them to the least desirable land, taking away their language, culture, and beliefs.

On your statement I disagree strongly with.

WMS

It was a bug nest when I lived there. Until I read otherwise it still is

Well yes, a bug nest..just not the type that come from anotehr meta plain, though some of the bugs there might put up a damn good fight if the bigger ones ever showed up, for the other two in the posting above flat here I shall now produce my Worlds smallest violin, I do take requests though since I work in the service ind. Cry me a river is something of a talent of mine,




Long live the republic. <more evil laughing> <becouse I like it,> < oh and lolcats are eating your pizza,>

P.S. Ok now you may return to sniping I've inject your silly for the day into this thread.

So pretty much nothing's changed. Gotcha.
(was stationed there for 2 and a half years)

I'm not saying the attempted obliteration of native culture was correct. I agree the destruction of culture and language was wrong, and that is stating it mildly.

What I am saying is that Hawaii's days as an independant nation were limited and it wouldhave been gobbled up by Japan if not the US. If you look at what they did to Korea, the Japanese were just as brutal in destroying indegiouns culture 'for the greater good."

Check your history books. The US forced open the doors to a exceedingly isolationist Japan. Ie Commodore in July 8, 1853. So if the US had not forced the Isolationist Japan, would Japan been a threat to the Hawaiian Islands.?

Also it was the British that more than likely would have been the threat to the Hawaiian Islands, since the British had already overthrown the government in February 10, 1843.

In January 16, 1893, is when the US overthrew the government to "Protect American Lives". The major purpose of said overthrow was to allow American Business interests free reign to do what they willed. Sugar being one of the larger ones.

So to say later that such actions protected them from being taken over by the Japanese, is to say the least very ludicrous.

And to think that the US was a kinder gentler Cultural Rapist than Japan was...... The end result is the same no matter who does the Cultural Raping.

WMS

it wasn't to protect the Hawaians from Japanese expansion, it was to protect american interests in the islands from Japanese expansion.

Yes the US forced Japan to open to the west but having done so, they more than made up for lost centuries in modernizing. Having a mind set better than the chinese, once defeated by the 'barbarians' the Japanese thought 'we can learn from them" and did.

If you are gonig to be insulting enough to say check the history books, I'd recommnend you do likewise but look at Japanese expansion in the late 19th early 20th century. The way in which the US forced the civilian government to Hawaii to surrender is an almost text book example of white imperialism towards a non-industrialized power, but Japan's growing power and influence in the region and her plans were similarly 'white.'

The US was pumping up the Russians in the area to blanace the growing Japanese power. Japan's anilation of the Russian navy in the 1905 war-later than this period I know-was a disaster for American forigen policy since it left Japan with no balancing power in the region, that was why Roosevelt so carefully worked on a peace treaty. Trying to salvage something of russia's power.

Just look at the large Japanese population in the islands predating the mid-20th century. it was a place many Japanese went for cheap land to try and build up capital to bring home. The United States may have had the upper class, but Japan had a growing 'colony' for lack of a better term there and it would have been right in line with the policies of industrial powers to fabricate some incident with indigenous population and send in armed troops to 'protect japanese interests' and then forget to go home.

Again which nation set of the trigger point which led up to all of this history.....The US did.

Since you are stating basically a What IF situation ie if we did not the Japanese would have,,,,Again what if the US had not opened up Japan.

Also you have not yet seen me be insulting. This is The DumpShock Forums that speaks for itself.

WMS

well despite the disputes over RL history getting on the rock seems like it'd be a monetarily wise decision for a shadowrunner. I'd imagine the islands would be great grounds for smuggling runs seeing as it would serve as a perfect refueling and dumping ground. it's a shame Hawaii wasn't included in smuggler's havens. between the corporate presence and it's vital military/shipping location it seems like there should be a little more sexy given to that great vacation spot cannon-wise.

Haoles don't surf, chummer.

In the SR4 world and its technologies Hawaii should be a center for Aqua farming and Aqua mining.

As for heavy manufacturing and industry unless the Aqua mining is very successful, I do not see much being there.

But it is a novel position for shipments crossing the Pacific.

So Runners would be able to locate various types of work there.

WMS

Maybe you should try reading things
1) Japanese history and see how much love there is the Koreans have for the japanese after what the Japanese did to them
2) If you are going to start playing games going further bacvk in time, like 'it's the US's fault because they opened up modern Japan, then just go back half a century further- blame FRANCE- Napoleon sold the Louisiana purchase to the US. if he hadn't done that, the US would never have had an interest in the western ocean to open up Japan,. so using your pathetic logic to shuffle back in time to reach a convenient point , then blame France or Blame Britain for settling north america and laying the gorund work for what would become the unbited States.

just because the US opened up Japan does not follow that the US gets the blame for the expansionist policies of Japan.

lastly, and most importantly

3) try reading the cannonical material on Hawaii before suggesting what might happen when it is documented what does happen.

Recycle arguements/discussions 1, 3, and 6.

WMS

There were other nations interested in opening Japan, like Russia for example. Also, Japan was not as isolated as people believe.

And blame Spain for the European discovery of the New World.

And France for settling Canada.

And blame Canada because they're just too damn polite! They're obviously up to something!

No blame the Vikings and Chinese they were here before the Spanish.

WMS

True 'nuff. But the First Nations People were able to scare off the Vikings.

The natives of Newfoundland (and possibly New England) did push back the first viking attempts to settle Vinland, but one should not discount the little ice age for keeping them away.

Wow. This thread sure moved past my intent Thanks AH for answering my question. I've still got the Paradise Lost module, used it for a long time for some of my character backgrounds.

Japan had and has a talent for self deception. After the founding of the Tokugawa shogunate, about 1605, they virtually did away with fire arms. There was a lot of firepower used to put the Tokugawa in power but they were horrified how easily noble samurai were shot down by commoners. Unlike the Europeans who faced with nobles being killed by commoners adapted their tactics, the Japanese took a step back and tried to do away with guns. when the Americans opens Japan in the 1850's there were cannon defending the harbors but no one with the skill to use them.

To blame the US for opening Japan and so being the cause of Japanese expansion is just looking for a fight or plain dumb. It is the sort of self deception used by modern right wing japanese who say that their actions in WW2 were not their fault and they were defending themselves when they attacked the Chinese and the western powers. My daughter is half english and half japanese and while I will raise her with prisdde in her Japanese side(the english side will fall to her father) I will make sure she knows the truth about Japan, good and bad.

There was a significant Japanese precence in Hawaii. Japanese warships regularly stopped there for 'culture exchanges' so the American born children of Japanese parents could be exposed to Nippon. In WW2 while Japanese-Americans on the west coast were sent to concentration camps, in Hawaii they were not. They made up too much of the population to be removed.

In SR terms it is a lovely land where it's too warm for your usual street armor. So you need to be more subtle. Armored cloth Hawaiian pattern shirts anyone? The less said about bullet proof bikini's the better.

The small area of the islands and smaller urban areas means it's harder to run or hide and skills for water or flying will be needed more than in Seattle or London or New York.

I suspect that the large number of changed ones is what kept the Japanocorps out. Yes they want the resources and the beach is nice but a land with that many orks and trolls is just wrong!

"...they ARE armour!" - House of the Sun, Nigel Findley.

Orthoskin with the Smart Insulation anyone? I know I've declaired it a standard feature in Orthoskin installed in Winnipeg.

For some reason DLG's post makes me want to run a game set in Hawaii with stuff stolen from Burn Notice and some of the stuff people were talking about in the Runner's Companion thread.

"You SURGE'd gills and fins?"
"You said Hawaii."

The really big changes in Japan did not happen because of American Trade Mission, but that the Shogunate was starting to eat itself from the inside. The Americans (and other Europeans) were the just the spark to start the Civil War that led to the Meiji Restoration.

I personally believe that if the American influence was not as strong as it was in the 1800s, that the British Empire would of taken Hawaii in the long run. Look at Fiji to see how that would of turned out.

House of the Sun is a great novel, but I am trying to figure out some plot twists after reading the novel.

Isn't it funny that I say something like this and then later that night, I get asked if I want to run a Shadowrun game at the local cookout / Games Day next month. Sometimes coincidence is a funny thing.

So I'm thinking of going with this idea in Hawaii involving the "Atlantean Foundation" and underwater research. Can anyone give some good Hawaii related advice?

In a similar vein...
...Without any access to the Hawaii sourcebook...
...How accurate was Findlay's use of the place [novel vs sourcebook] - access to implanted armour, the "no mugging of tourists" behaviour, the shamen, etc ??

If Hawaii was made a protectorate of the British Empire, they got to keep domestic control whilst the British controlled their foreign policy and looked after defence, that would have certainly created an interesting outcome. Whether something like that could have come about is another matter. The British and French governments agreed in the Anglo-Franco Proclamation of 1843 to both recognise Hawaii's independence and to refrain from annexing them either directly or as a protectorate. Both sides were interested in them but since neither wanted a fight over the islands they agreed that neither side would have them. The historical knock ons and what ifs had that happened though would certainly be intriguing.

I looked through Paradise Lost last night and the thing that jumped out at me was that the area seems really SAFE. Not the human element but that the awakened land is not trying to eat people. I mean Greece has all sorts of nasty para's and Australia and Brittany are almost undersiege from their own space but a land you would expect to be full of parasharks and evil spirits and berserk parapigs does not have these.

It is like the place wants metahumanity to kick back and enjoy it all.

I have one word for you - lava.

Can't you just picture a running gun battle over the exposed lava flows? Lots of places to hide, or fall through. "How much does your Troll weigh?"

You know, back when Paradise Lost came out, I thought Hawai'i was kind of a goofy setting for Shadowrun. I was very much in the "Seattle Sprawl" mindset.

Now that I've picked up the game again, I'm finding Hawai'i to be an incredibly appealing setting.

-paws

I learn something new every day. I was not aware of the this agreement. It does answer my question I have always had on why the British never took Hawai'i, and how American influence was even allowed to get to the point it did.

Well, he wrote both so they agree well. That said, I love Findley's Hawai'i in Shadowrun.

Now that does sound appealing...

I've got a good idea sketched out involving the DMIR, Atlanteans, and a Great.

Should keep my players interested.

never mind breaking through, imagine shots blasting it open

PARAPIGS! It's been too long, but I remember them almost being paracritters as is.
...and the centipedes, and the jellyfish, the choking ghosts... (it took months for that stinger scar to fade...)

I don't have Paradise Lost, so I can only guess that the idea was to keep the Aloha shaka brah feel versus another threat packed Awakened setting. Now that I've been a Mainlander for so many years I can agree with the decision, but Hawaii deserves as much Awakening as anywhere else. It's definitely a special place with its own craziness (at least on par with Tir na nOg).

Madame Pele totem for shamantic fire or earth elementalists? I'd allow it.

I've got a couple requests now -

1. Can anyone give me a good run down on ALOHA? In my head I've been kind of treating them the same way that the Mormons were treated in Deadlands...sort of a secret tribal police that helps run Hawai'i from the shadows, protecting the nation's interests. Is this close, or am I way off of target?

2. Same sort of question - totems / magical traditions? Or a good run down on historical Hawaiian magic practices?

I really need to find a copy of Paradise Lost, but so far no luck

ALOHA is "officially" something like the Irish Republican Army was ten years ago, except they want a more NAN-oriented, native-rule, foreign-corps-don't-run-the government. Oh, and they have a kickass secret base worthy of Cobra. In reality, ALOHA is a shill run by the feathered serpent Naheka on behalf of Ryumyo to maintain the wyrm's interests on the islands; Ryumyo promised Naheka that after a century the Hawai'ian islands would be his own personal territory.


Essentially shamanism for the native kahunas - very similar to other Polynesian magical practices. Common totems before were animals like Lizard and Nene (Goose), but you could definitely do idols that represent the various Hawai'ian gods and heroes. Blood magic, natch, is the Hawai'ian kahunas' dirty little secret, and they have access to the Great Ghost Dance or something roughly equivalent, apparently.

Wow, this fits what I want perfectly. Because (again, in my head) I can see Hawaii as being just fine with corporate and government interests on the island, as long as they were confined to very specific areas (say, resorts or such, which brings money and supplies to the islands). The group I was thinking of was just there to make sure that the corps and other governments don't overstep their bounds. ALOHA sounds like they would be excellent scapegoats for my group's activities. Plus, Ryumyo / Naheka means Japanese interests clashing against native interests which is perfect for what I've got planned. And the Yakuza!


Yeah, I was reading up Hawaiian culture yesterday and stumbled across that blood magic thing. The kahuna's don't seem too keen on it.

Thank you AH.

grabbing details from Paradise Lost, the population is 4.1 million.
54% human
8% elf
4% dwarf
22% ork
11% trolls.

64% of the population has corp afifliation

culturally:
9.5% polnesians
30% caucasian
58.4% Asian (predominantly Japanese, remember what DLN said)
2.1% hispanic
That troll population is particularly large. Like serriously eye catchingly large.

organized crime is exclusively Yakuza.

to build on the totems the big local ones are:
Goose-adaptable tough loner combat oriented.

Turtle-at peace with the world, big on illusion

Gecko- curious -manipulation

Whale-protector of the world and keeper of words- combat spells but in 'tude more like eagle in north america.

Well, if you want lava while staying in Seattle, just head to the southern part of Puyallup. Lots of Lava there.

In fact, I had a Dragon pipe in some Lava for his own personal warehouse using some forgotten sewer tunnels.

And thank you Snowfox.

The Nene is a decendant of the Canada Goose, evovled to deal with the volcanic rock of the island.

And are some of the meanest buggers around!

I've seen a Canadian Goose try to establish dominance against motorcycles. Forget what one tried to do to me while walking home from work one day!

Mean buggers! And Nene Shamans are NOT people you mess with!