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6thDragon
For those of you out there wandering whatever happened to the good old US dollar here’s my best guess. In 2018 the dollar would have taken a tumble. Between the breakup of China (the Chinese central bank hoards US Treasury Bonds), and the Treaty of Denver (the break away of the Midwest) that would seriously erode confidence in the dollar. In 2029 the Crash of 29, the book even says it did a wonder on the world economy, and the following year US and Canada merge. With the US-Canada merger; basically the new UCAS just inherited the national debts of both countries. In 2034, the CAS broke away and in 2037 Cal Free broke away. Needless to say, California has a larger economy than Canada, and the combine states of CAS would be a large economy too. Unfortunately there is no historical precedent for what happens to the national debt in such a case. When the South split of the union last time, it just happened to be at the end of the 30 year period the US didn’t have a national debt (the only time in our history). I can see this destroying the dollar. In modern day, 60% of all US dollars in circulation are outside the country. The only thing I’m not sure about is when the nuyen replaced the US dollar as the worlds dominate currency. If that proportion exists by the time California and CAS succeed, no foreigner in his right mind would want to keep UCAS dollars; which would totally flood the market and cause inflation comparable to what Germany saw in 1923-4. That could be how the nuyen became the world’s dominant currency. However, if it took place gradually, the shock would not have been as bad for the US economy. Either way that would most likely cause the UCAS government to, at the very least, suspend payments for Treasury Bonds. If the savings rate for the average UCAS citizen is anywhere close to what it is for the average American today; that would put the UCAS government in a very bad spot. But then again, I think the large corperations of the time would gladly fund the US government's deficit, if only to give then an ecomonic equivelant to an atomic bomb to blackmail the government. Also, with the amount of race-riots and other catastrophes that could cause foreign investors to pull out of the American market; unless conditions are just as bad elsewhere. If any of you have any ideas please feel free to comment.
Matrix Monkey
Line breaks are your friend...
Ancient History
If I was merging what was left of the US and Canada, I'd declare old debts no longer applied, unless more money was coming in to the nation from interest on outstanding debts owed to the US and Canada than was going out to other countries (most of which appear to have folded).

I'd base the inflation of the dollar on the advent of the Nuyen as a superior currency, backed by nations and megacorps world-wide.
Frag-o Delux
The CAS session this time was also a deliberate act worked out by the UCAS and CAS to break the NAN block in the FRFZ Denver. So I could see the UCAS asking the CAS to take part of its debt with them or at least when the CAS is settled in to its new place give consessions back so the UCAS could recoup some of the loses from them splitting. Like Oil rights or agricultural products, were the Ucas could give Industrial products. That is of course to be gven to the Corps. but the terrifs on certain products and taxes from the corps wuld be help each other. I am sure the UCAS and the CAS are working together to an extent to make sure the Indians and the Azzies are not looking for a move east.
Nath
If you trust Target: Wastelands, page 37b, when the US became the UCAS, they nationalized the debt, ruining the Saudis among other.
6thDragon
I must admit, i'm unfamiliar with the concept of nationalizing a debt. I thought, by it's very nature, the national debt was already, in a sense, "nationalized". Also, Target: Wastelands is one of the few sourcebooks since first edition I don't have (I'll have to fix that soon). I personally think the UCAS and CAS would just default on the national debt lock stock and barrel. With the US dollar not the worlds dominate currency, the UCAS would be very vulnerable. However, if severe inflation did hit the US economy, the debt might be manageable after all.
FlakJacket
The country might owe someone so it's their debt. Nationalisation though is when the government owns something. So they basically said we no longer owe X amount to person Y, we now owe it to ourselves and are writing it off. Yay us. Least that's how I understood it. :/ Bit like Egypt did with the Suez Canal, except that they stumped up restitution in the end.

Not sure how legal that was since national debts supposedly carry over from government to government. Plus it must have put the UCAS dollar and treasury bills, or the equivalent, in the toilet for an age.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Ancient History)
If I was merging what was left of the US and Canada, I'd declare old debts no longer applied, unless more money was coming in to the nation from interest on outstanding debts owed to the US and Canada than was going out to other countries (most of which appear to have folded).

I'd base the inflation of the dollar on the advent of the Nuyen as a superior currency, backed by nations and megacorps world-wide.

Dude, countries that default on their debt, well... Look at the countries that have done so. Their credit ratings don't just get flushed down the toilet, they get sent out to sea. Countries, hell any government, that default will likely not see any foreign investment in their territory for years or decades if ever, and Forget about deficit spending. he way it works is that the governments have to issue bonds to cover the shortfall (this is why people have described the current level of deficit spending as handing the next generation a bill--because that's EXACTLY what happens with deficit spending in the long-term). Why the Hell would anyone invest in their country or in their public debt issuance ever again when they just told every investor in the world with a T-bill to piss off and die, leaving everyone who invested in them with their proverbial johnsons in hand.

Their bonds attain junk status, which would be great for a gamble, but in the meanwhile they have untold numbers of people (foreign and domestic citizens), corps and governments who lost their shirts, and in some cases those entities (corps and gov'ts) are going to make that country's existence a nightmare in retaliation.
mfb
those junk bonds might have paid off during the Nanosecond Buyout. i don't recall anything that says who was ruined and who made it big (besides Damien, Lucien, and Dunk) in that whole thing--the end result could easily have been a dollar that is strong by merit of lots of UCAS investors being filthy stinking rich. this would have created the 'Ares as UCAS mega' image that Ares perpetuates today.

the CAS may have also taken a share of the debt burden. as seen in SoNA, the CAS views itself as the 'true' America; taking on part of the debt would help validate this.
Neruda's Ghost
I think you may be looking at it too close to our current world perspective. The Crash of '29 did more than simply wipe out all computer systems, it wiped the global debt along with it not to mention destroying every countries' economic status. Where have all the credit companies gone? all the insurance and world banks?

I assume that the megas were more than happy to fill the economic void (they had already been steering in that direction anyway since the Seretech and Shiawase Decisions 1999-2001) and one of the main reasons for the formation of the Corporate Court was to maintain the global economic status quo. The nuyen rose as the dominant currency due to the rise of the Japanese Imperial State(2006) and the expanding Japanacorp's joint influence over the Third World countries. The USA dollar just wasn't strong enough to compete against the nuyen during the Resource Rush; years later, and the UCAS dollar is still feeling the blow.

As Delux mentioned, the Treaty of Denver probably put to rest many of the economic squabbles held over from the previous era, at the same time solidifying new economic ties within its members.
Nath
QUOTE (Neruda's Ghost)
The nuyen rose as the dominant currency due to the rise of the Japanese Imperial State(2006) and the expanding Japanacorp's joint influence over the Third World countries. The USA dollar just wasn't strong enough to compete against the nuyen during the Resource Rush; years later, and the UCAS dollar is still feeling the blow.

Nuyen is NOT the Japanese currency. It is a virtual currency emited by the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank (to the delight of economists like von Hayet and Hothbard), its value based on a set of stock and other financial products. Its name is obviously inspired from the Japanese yen, in SR because the Japanacorps were dominant in the Court at that time (two out of seven at the beginning, three out of seven when Renraku biught out Keruba, four out of seven after Fuchi bought JRJ out, five out of eight when Yamatetsu entered), IRL because Japan ruled in 1980ies Sci-Fi.
Neruda's Ghost
I never said it was the Japanese currency, Nath. Whether the rise of the nuyen originated from Japanese run Zurich-Orbital or the Japanese run Third World contries or the Imperial Japanese Emperor's monkey-butt it makes no diffirence to this thread. You are partially right about the 80's influence though.

The questions again were:
a) When did the nuyen replace the US dollar as the dominant currency?
b) Where did the old US foreign and national debts go?


My responses were a) with the rise of the Imperial Japanese Empire and the strength of the joint Japanacorps in the global market (2006-2010); b) gone with the Crash of '29 and the Treaty of Denver.
Nath
If Japan is an upswing at a given time, the _yen could become the world dominant currency. The very fact that the nuyen is not the Japanese national currency but a virtual one under the control of Zurich-Orbital makes the rise of the Japanese Imperial State after 2006 as meaningful than the Awakening, the Denver Treaty, the 2029 Crash, the UCAS creation or any other event of an economical reach. Sure, the name indicates a Japanese influence of some sort when the nuyen was named, which would probably be years or decades before it became the world dominant currency. Besides, Japan remains a leading country all along SR timeline.

There are far more significant landmarks, such as 2020, when Global Financial Services co. of Zurich replace the states-owned World Bank. Or 2032 when the Big Seven acquires Global Financial Services and turn it into an arm of the Corporate Court under its new name, the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank.

That leaves a lot of questions. Did the nuyen become the world dominant currency the night after its creation ? Unlikely. So in addition to when did the nuyen become the world dominant currency, when was it created ? Did GFS or Zurich-Orbital create it, or was its control handed over by another organization (a regional Japanese corps-backed organization maintaining it as a sort of joint corp-scrip for instance) ? Did the nuyen ever directly replace the dollar as the world dominant currency, or did another currency (yen, yuan, euro, EF-535 bond...) replaced the dollar before being replaced in turn by the nuyen ?
SirFozzie
I'd say there was a UCAS Dollar between the joining of the USA/Canada and the Crash of 29. But after that, little electronic data is available about money, and what little there is can't be trusted. After all, your bank account is not a pile of money in some bank in a safe.. it exists as 1's and 0's in a computer hard drive. Erase the 1's and 0's and you have nothing.

That would have wiped out the UCAS Dollar on the spot. Z-O offering the nuyen as a replacement would be a godsend for the UCAS.. as they'd have SOMETHING to back up their money.. after all, if the nuyen crashes, the rest of the world is likely so fubared that being fubared yourself isn't so bad.

Fortune
QUOTE (SirFozzie)
I'd say there was a UCAS Dollar between the joining of the USA/Canada and the Crash of 29. But after that, little electronic data is available about money, and what little there is can't be trusted. After all, your bank account is not a pile of money in some bank in a safe.. it exists as 1's and 0's in a computer hard drive. Erase the 1's and 0's and you have nothing.

That would have wiped out the UCAS Dollar on the spot. Z-O offering the nuyen as a replacement would be a godsend for the UCAS.. as they'd have SOMETHING to back up their money.. after all, if the nuyen crashes, the rest of the world is likely so fubared that being fubared yourself isn't so bad.

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact remains that there is a UCAS dollar in Shadowrun. Not only that, but it isn't purely electronically based cred either, but actual money.
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