Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Sport Rifles
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
sunnyside
I think SR4 does a much better job of making the different weapon types useful. Even the usual pariahs, light pistols, get their concealability bonus and aren't so far behind heavy pistols in damage that their use is out of the question (or with S&S aren't behind at all in damage).

But is there any reason for Sport rifles? The only thing I can think of is that, maybe, they're easier to smuggle around as high caliber sniper rifles and assault rifles might attract much more legal attention and/or be harder to get permits for.

Though I suppose there isn't anything neccesarily wrong with having weapons that are just popular for sport or whatever.

The little .22 LR is still the most popular cartridge in RL after all.
Mx
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 28 2008, 11:34 PM) *
or be harder to get permits for.


Not just harder put imposible, their forbidden availebility.

Sport rifles are also easier to find if your in hurry.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 28 2008, 09:34 PM) *
But is there any reason for Sport rifles? The only thing I can think of is that, maybe, they're easier to smuggle around as high caliber sniper rifles and assault rifles might attract much more legal attention and/or be harder to get permits for.

Though I suppose there isn't anything neccesarily wrong with having weapons that are just popular for sport or whatever.

The little .22 LR is still the most popular cartridge in RL after all.


That's about it, i'd say.

This point might be even more important in jurisdictions with firm gun control laws.
They might also be more appropriate equipment for certain NPCs.

But besides that...they just can't compete with sniping rifles.
Okay, the PJSS Friedrich Hornemann Elefantenbüchse is just awesome stylewise, and can truly hold its ground against the BBBs sniper rifles (unless you run out of ammo...), but as soon as you bring in Arsenal and its unholy ultrarifle of supercheese, the Barret-121...
Basically, hunting rifles aren't a runner's first choice, no.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 28 2008, 04:41 PM) *
Not just harder put imposible, their forbidden availebility.

Sport rifles are also easier to find if your in hurry.


Ah yes the sniper rifles are all forbidden (really being more like Anti-Materiel rifles).

Though the AK-97 has the same availability code as the Ruger 100.

On that note was it laid out anywhere in this edition that full auto weapons carry higher punishments and require different permits than semi auto weapons? I believe it was laid out explicity in either first or second or both. But I don't know about 3rd or 4th.

Rasumichin
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 28 2008, 11:25 PM) *
Ah yes the sniper rifles are all forbidden (really being more like Anti-Materiel rifles).

Though the AK-97 has the same availability code as the Ruger 100.

On that note was it laid out anywhere in this edition that full auto weapons carry higher punishments and require different permits than semi auto weapons? I believe it was laid out explicity in either first or second or both. But I don't know about 3rd or 4th.


In this edition, R is R.
There's no further differentiation.

In both 1st and 2nd ed, this was different, with detailed tables regarding item restriction in various sourcebooks.

Don't know about 3rd, but it might be the same as in the first two editions there.
Zombayz
I'd say because of how simple they are, easy to find, easy to afford, and are pretty much just as effective as a low quality sniper until you bring in the cheese(barret 121).

And on a side note, .22 LR isn't something you'd want for combat. .22 long and .22 short are more likely ammo for light pistols and holdouts.
Vegetaman
I know in SR3, I'd always have somebody pack the Sport Rifle (like a Remington 750 or 950, IIRC). Amazingly, it was quite handy for use in a pinch when a pistol or a SMG just wouldn't cut it, but that was rare. I suppose if you need the extra firepower, and can actually smuggle the thing in for the run, it's pretty handy... And they're a lot more "available"; I believe.
psychophipps
Umm...most "sniper rifles" are nothing but tuned hunting rifles, kids.

If you were to buy the new Tikka bull-barrel "Varmint" rifle in .308 you'd have a good basis for a low-end sniper rifle, as an example. The action is smooth as butter, locks up tight, and the heavy barrel (just to tell y'all what heavy barrels are really for) won't vibrate as much as the bullet goes down the barrel to negatively effect accuracy or warp as much as the barrel heats up for cleaner follow-up shots at the low cost of a couple extra pounds. Put a good medium power scope or low-power red-dot sight on this baby and you're good to go for up to 600m or so with some training.

And yes, my current character uses a sporting rifle from time to time. He swaps his TC Centennial pistol configuration for a rifle one with the addition of a stock and swapping out the barrel for a longer rifle barrel. Yeah, it's a single-shot weapon but how often do you need two high-powered rifle rounds to get the job done?
Yoan
Good range, low availability... why not? I don't give out sniper rifles like candy in my games (like many here seem to), so sport rifles are a handy replacement.

Then there was the time they were more or less pinned down by two gangers in the opposite building, both with sport rifles, during a hilarious assault on the gang's compound. They could barely find them, let alone return fire.
Wounded Ronin
Mosin Nagant = sport rifle, probably = t3h pwn
CanRay
You can walk into Joe's Gun Shop and get a Sporting Rifle.

"A nice Winchester in .30-30? Please just wave your SIN over this way, thank you sir, yes, it appears you have a hunting license in the Salish-Shide Council Lands, so that won't be an issue at all. Would you like a box of ammunition with that, sir?"
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Yoan @ Aug 29 2008, 02:50 AM) *
Good range, low availability... why not? I don't give out sniper rifles like candy in my games (like many here seem to), so sport rifles are a handy replacement.

Then there was the time they were more or less pinned down by two gangers in the opposite building, both with sport rifles, during a hilarious assault on the gang's compound. They could barely find them, let alone return fire.


Well, the MA-2100 and Desert Strike are both available at chargen, so anybody who's interested in longarms could by RAW already have them when the game starts.
Not to mention the restricted gear quality.
And even after that, a good fixer can get you most sniper rifles rather quickly.

But yes, they are ideal for gangers and other NPCs, as i already wrote upthread.
CanRay
Or, you know, PCs who are actually going on on a hunting trip.

Taking a Anti-Material Rifle to go deer hunting is a bit much, when an old Bolt Action or light Semi-Auto would do just as fine.

And *NOT* overpenetrate the deer and be a danger to everyone else in the wilderness.

Unless, of course, you're trying to cause a "Hunting Accident" and assassinate a guy through a Deer.
Snow_Fox
The sight of a sport rifle s not going to cause an automatic freak by customs/sec people the way an AK or M-16 would.
We rate older bolt action rifles like Mauser, Springfield and SMLE as 'sport rifles' which with a scope added are excelent sniper guns
CanRay
Scoped Mausers, Springfields, and SMLEs WERE Sniper Rifles back in the day. nyahnyah.gif
KCKitsune
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 28 2008, 03:34 PM) *
I think SR4 does a much better job of making the different weapon types useful. Even the usual pariahs, light pistols, get their concealability bonus and aren't so far behind heavy pistols in damage that their use is out of the question (or with S&S aren't behind at all in damage).


A light pistol with capsule rounds loaded with DMSO/Narcojet becomes pretty damn powerful and non-lethal weapon. Load that sucker up with DMSO/cyanide and it becomes more dangerous than an assault rifle.
CanRay
Even with stanard ammo, all it takes is one bad Armour roll to ruin someones day with a light pistol or holdout.

That, I like. smile.gif
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 28 2008, 11:26 PM) *
Scoped Mausers, Springfields, and SMLEs WERE Sniper Rifles back in the day. nyahnyah.gif
yeah, I know. but most people don't. Most people hear sniper and think of the highly specialized stuff of the modern world.
psychophipps
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 28 2008, 08:30 PM) *
Even with stanard ammo, all it takes is one bad Armour roll to ruin someones day with a light pistol or holdout.

That, I like. smile.gif


Hear! Hear!

My current character carries a few (ok, eight...with a spare magazine for each cool.gif ) Cavalier Scouts and I can honestly say that the -1 DV and AP vs. a service, err...heavy pistol hasn't been missed a bit.
DreadPirateKitten
I like having a tricked out light pistol. Some of them are really excellent, like the Cherry Blossom Storm(And a great name!) and all are great for sneaking into your local bar, without having a hand cannon with you.

Not so big on the sport rifle. If I wanna snipe, I wanna snipe with a really *really* big tricked out gun. =P
ravensoracle
I played a grumpy old hunter in one game, actually he was a retired security system design specialist, but always hunted as a hobby. The GM at the table laughed when he saw that I had specialized in Sporting Rifles. That was until we had to go thru a few customs checks. Everyone was freaking out about all their Forbiden gear. My guy just smiled walked right up to the custom official with all his gear(Various Electorincs and Armorer Toolkits and his Modded Rifle) and his own SIN.

Customs official, "And how are you today sir? May I see your SIN and Licences for all the gear you have here. Kinda strange combination don't you think, sir. All of these tools and a rifle. What is all the gear for?"

"Well son, I'm a headed out to do some consultin' work for a few businesses on some o' their remote work sites and figured while I was there, I'd would get some hunting done. Ya can see all my permits and licenses should be there."

"Very well sir have a nice day, just remember that the weapons need to be checked baggage, they cannot be carried on the plane."

It took the other team members two days to smuggle everything across and by that time My character had already done some legitmate consulting work and had bagged a deer to boot.

Sometimes being able to blend in right in plain site is all that matters.
paws2sky
As mentioned above, sport rifles have several advantages: cost, availability, legality, and legitimate uses other than shooting people in the face.

For me, sniper rifles really only win out in a few areas: base damage/AP, ammo capacity, and range.

Just my 2 nuyen.gif

-paws
CanRay
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Aug 28 2008, 10:31 PM) *
yeah, I know. but most people don't. Most people hear sniper and think of the highly specialized stuff of the modern world.

I've commented numerous times to numerous people (Maybe not on this board but in other places), never, ever forget what you used to know.

High Tech does not always mean Better Tech. Sometimes, all you need is a Compass and a Map.

And, all the weapons you mentioned went through two of the worst wars humanity had to deal with. And served well. You can't ask for better for what they're designed to do.

The SMLE is still in Canadian Service, BTW. Canadian Arctic Rangers use them. Most other rifles don't work in the icy conditions, save AKs. And the SMLE can outshoot the AK without half trying.
Jackstand
QUOTE (DreadPirateKitten @ Aug 29 2008, 12:44 AM) *
Not so big on the sport rifle. If I wanna snipe, I wanna snipe with a really *really* big tricked out gun. =P


That's why I've got a scope on my Panther cannon.
The Jopp
Well, all equipment in the books have their place.

Sure, not many runners use a hunting rifle in the sprawl and sniper rifles are military issue and harder to get.

But I'll bet my last Nuyen that as soon as you get out in the countryside or the local hillbilly area each and every farmer will have hunting rifles and aim for your chromed ass if you enter their lands without permission.

Runners might not have a lot use for them but farmers sure do...

Not to mention paracritter hunters and normal hunters.
Sir_Psycho
As some-one mentioned, sport rifles are easier to proliferate throughout the game's NPCs. A ganger probably doesn't have a Desert Storm, but a sport rifle? Sure, that works almost as well!

I believe there was an encounter in Sprawl Guides with a crazy guy on a rooftop picking people off with an antique rifle (I seem to remember it would jam on certain rolls).
CanRay
And, sometimes, they're just the right weapon for the job.

"Enfield!" *Group looks confused* "ENFIELD!" *Hands over a Rifle* "..." *Shot rings out, Money comes down* "OK, quick lesson. This is a Mauser, THAT is the Enfield."

From a story I'm working on.
ravensoracle
Plus there is always a chance that you have that one player that likes to disrupt the game and bring all the law enforcement down on you in a hurry. It is a lot easier to discard all your gear and replace it easily when it is the cheaper more available stuff.

It wouldn't so bad if I was just discarding some hunting rifle I had planned to destroy after the job anyway that if it was some high-end, highly customized sniper rifle. And yes I have played in several games where the fan started throwing all sorts of smelly stuff around the room. I've learned that a good PC should be able to stop and walk away with minimal fuss. Its just happened too many times in games not to make it a consideration.
Tarantula
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 28 2008, 09:30 PM) *
Even with stanard ammo, all it takes is one bad Armour roll to ruin someones day with a light pistol or holdout.

That, I like. smile.gif


I fully disagree. Most runners have body 3 and at least would get a 6 ballistic armor rating with that.

Your light pistol does 4P, with no AP. That means you'd need 3 net hits to not do stun damage to them. Even a "bad" armor roll would still leave it as stun unless you got the necessary hits, and if you're averaging 3+ net hits, then you're overskilled for what you're shooting.
sunnyside
Still though as far as I can tell in 4th an AK-97 is every bit as availible, legal, and affordable as a sport rifle. Cheaper actually if both weapons get an internal smartlink and the AK picks up a gas vent 3 and a shock pad.

I'm tempted to say that the extra legal penalties for full auto are still there though.

The availibility codes reflect the ability to get something on the black market. Illegal or not AKs are kinda everywhere. Presuming the '97' refers to the year as with most AK designs it means the things have been cranked out and shiped around the world for 73 years.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 29 2008, 06:56 AM) *
I fully disagree. Most runners have body 3 and at least would get a 6 ballistic armor rating with that.

Your light pistol does 4P, with no AP. That means you'd need 3 net hits to not do stun damage to them. Even a "bad" armor roll would still leave it as stun unless you got the necessary hits, and if you're averaging 3+ net hits, then you're overskilled for what you're shooting.


And since everyone worth popping shots at pumps Willpower rather than Body then you're hosed...err, they don't? cool.gif

In most cases I'll take stun over physical, thanks. Same penalty. Easier to deal overall with the armor rules. Usually has a shorter wound track.

Looks to be full of "Win!" to me...
Tarantula
Given that though, 3 body + 6 armor = 9 dice and thus 3 soak on average. If you're doing 5 (with 1 net hit) then thats 2 stun, and 5 shots (again, on average) before they go down.

I don't call 5 shots full of win.
Tarantula
On the point of sport rifles. It's pretty cheap and easy to upgrade say, the Remington 950 to be Semi-Auto (4R availability) instead of Semi-shot. All for 300¥. Really, it just has a smaller clip, but who cares? Its still stupid legal. Honestly, 975 for a semi-auto 8P -1 SA rifle? Thats a steal that is.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 29 2008, 08:37 AM) *
I don't call 5 shots full of win.


There are many paths to victory, Grasshopper.

Mine happens to include more than one net success on average, a couple of stunt dice, and two guns at once. biggrin.gif
Tarantula
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Aug 29 2008, 10:11 AM) *
There are many paths to victory, Grasshopper.

Mine happens to include more than one net success on average, a couple of stunt dice, and two guns at once. biggrin.gif


Funny, stunts and two guns at once tend to make 0 net successes on average.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 29 2008, 09:29 AM) *
Funny, stunts and two guns at once tend to make 0 net successes on average.


Average? What is this "average" you keep talking of?

There is nothing "average" with skill 5, specialization, LS, aiming is a free action, and 2 meters or less, homie.

Besides, if they see it coming, you've already failed. cyber.gif
Ed_209a
I was scratching my head for a reason why sniper rifles are Forbidden availability, when sport rifles are Restricted.

It might be because of the higher calibers that "sniper rifles" use.

Currently, in the US, any non-automatic rifle with a bore 12.7mm or less is fairly routine for private citizens to own. A (hypothetical) 13mm rifle would not be much more dangerous than one in 12.7mm, but would be much harder to legally own, because it is over that line.

Perhaps that dividing line is lowered from 12.7mm to 8mm in the 2070s? That would make the .338 Laupa (a popular round for military snipers) highly restricted, while .300 Win Mag (popular with long-range hunters) would remain relatively easy to get.

I don't think it is because of stock accessories, because even sniper rifles without suppressors are rating F.
Tarantula
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Aug 29 2008, 11:30 AM) *
Average? What is this "average" you keep talking of?

There is nothing "average" with skill 5, specialization, LS, aiming is a free action, and 2 meters or less, homie.

Besides, if they see it coming, you've already failed. cyber.gif



Stunts, and they're not supposed to see you coming? Ok, skill 5, +spec = 7. Laser sights don't matter for two weapons, aiming gets you +1 per SIMPLE action, so nothing there, and 2 meters or less puts you at short range. Oh yeah, and you said stunts, so probably a -2 attacker running So, 5 + agility, we'll go with 4. 9 dice, split, 5 and 4, +2 for the spec = 7 and 6. -2 for the running, back to 5 and 4. Thats 1 hit. Assuming they don't get a change to dodge. And most people have at least a 3 in their reaction. Thus, the 0 net hits on average.
Mx
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 29 2008, 09:10 PM) *
aiming gets you +1 per SIMPLE action

No it's a FREE action with krav maga.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 29 2008, 12:48 PM) *
No it's a FREE action with krav maga.


*looks back over the thread*

He didn't say he had krav maga. He also didn't say if he was an adept or not, or if he had initiated and has a total of 129301283902131123121 karma. Lets figure it out for those numbers too. spin.gif
paws2sky
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 29 2008, 03:22 PM) *
*looks back over the thread*

He didn't say he had krav maga. He also didn't say if he was an adept or not, or if he had initiated and has a total of 129301283902131123121 karma. Lets figure it out for those numbers too. spin.gif


Well, he did say aiming was a free action. I can't think of anything other than Krav Maga that gives a character that bonus. *shrug*

(Of course, we're not taking into account lighting, weather, and all those other modifiers either...)

-paws

Chrysalis
Kids if we are going to talk about sports/sniper rifles then I would need to point out these weapons which still see active service not only in hunting mid-sized game such as deer and humans.

M1903 Springfield rifle, M1 Garand, and the M14 Rifle.

The 1903 saw service in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam. The M1 Garand saw service in WWII and Vietnam. The M14 was issued for a short time before being replaced by the M16 in Vietnam, but has been later seen in such exotic locations as Panama, Iraq, and Somalia. All three rifles still play a major role in U.S. Army marksmanship training.

CanRay
Don't forget the Korean Police Action.

The SMLE and Mauser saw both World Wars and Korea. And many wars before and since. (The Mauser in particular, which was available to many countries in something like nearly a dozen calibres! Before WWI, that is.).

And, again, the SMLE are still in use by a standing army (Admittedly a specialist and reserve portion, but still part of the standing Canadian Armed Forces!).

As well, there are a number of civilian designs out there that do a damn fine job too. The Ruger Mini-14 has a "Militarized" version for Police and Militia units for example, and is 5.56mm NATO Compatable. NYPD used them for almost three decades before buying some M4 Carbines.

Next up we have the other type of "Sport Rifle", the Lever-Action! Also a powerful weapon, and a design that goes back farther than the Bolt-Actions! And very easy to explain: "Hello Officer, we're going to a Cowboy Shootout. I'm going to try and make the Lever-Gun Record this year!"
Zombayz
Let us not forget the Lee Enfield and Mosin Nagant. The Finnish variant of the Mosin(aka Laser Guided Tack Driver) was used as a sniper up until 1995. And for the SMLE, there's a reason it's iron sights go out to 1300 yards.

And as mentioned before, a sniper is an enchanced sport rifle. Often a larger caliber shell is used for antimaterial roles.
CanRay
I didn't forget the Lee-Enfield. That's what the SMLE is. nyahnyah.gif

Short, Magazine, Lee-Endfield.

And, yes, the Mosin-Nagant is another old soldier that's still going strong as a hunting weapon in Russia I bet!
Jackstand
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Aug 29 2008, 11:29 AM) *
Funny, stunts and two guns at once tend to make 0 net successes on average.


Unless, of course, he's an adept with centering based on gymnastics.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Aug 29 2008, 02:27 PM) *
Unless, of course, he's an adept with centering based on gymnastics.


Or he tends fire them one at a time unless he's using them for suppressive fire...
kzt
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 28 2008, 07:26 PM) *
You can walk into Joe's Gun Shop and get a Sporting Rifle.

"A nice Winchester in .30-30? Please just wave your SIN over this way, thank you sir, yes, it appears you have a hunting license in the Salish-Shide Council Lands, so that won't be an issue at all. Would you like a box of ammunition with that, sir?"

How about a Remington 700 in .308? Yes, the synthetic stock would be fine. Oh, that's a 700P? Sure, I don't care. And 4 boxes of 168 grain federal match. wink.gif
psychophipps
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 29 2008, 09:10 PM) *
How about a Remington 700 in .308? Yes, the synthetic stock would be fine. Oh, that's a 700P? Sure, I don't care. And 4 boxes of 168 grain federal match. wink.gif


You know what, sir? That federal stuff is pretty good but this new Black Hills Match ammunition is really dynamite. It costs an extra two bucks a box but the accuracy and terminal ballistics are supposed to be phenomenal. Oh, you'll take five boxes of those instead? Why, certainly! I'm only here to help, after all...
NightmareX
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 28 2008, 03:34 PM) *
But is there any reason for Sport rifles? The only thing I can think of is that, maybe, they're easier to smuggle around as high caliber sniper rifles and assault rifles might attract much more legal attention and/or be harder to get permits for.


Sports rifles are great for sniping against soft targets due to a number of already mentioned reasons, plus the biggest one IMO - they're disposable! (just cover your tracks)

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Aug 29 2008, 09:11 AM) *
I believe there was an encounter in Sprawl Guides with a crazy guy on a rooftop picking people off with an antique rifle (I seem to remember it would jam on certain rolls).


Vote from the rooftops grinbig.gif cyber.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012