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JonathanC
So, I was looking through my Runner's Companion, and the idea of playing an E-Ghost sounds pretty awesome. The thing that gets me is that the only AIs who can ever jump into drones are those that evolved from Pilot programs. So every other AI, including an e-ghost, has to just hang out in a drone, and give orders to that drone's Pilot program. While the initial explanation makes sense (no brain, so no motor cortex), if a Pilot program can do it without a motor cortex because of its familiarity with controlling drones, why couldn't a hacker who died in the Matrix figure this out? It seems at least like something that a PC AI should be able to buy with Karma. I'd thought of maybe just allowing PCs to buy the "Pilot origin" quality under a different name for 10 karma. Does this sound reasonable? If I were a player in your game and asked for this, what would you say?
ludomastro
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Aug 31 2008, 10:45 AM) *
Does this sound reasonable? If I were a player in your game and asked for this, what would you say?


Disclaimer: I do not yet own RC.

It sounds reasonable to me. As for letting you do it in my game? I would have to have you play a while to determine your MI (Munchkin Index) first. If low enough, then yes, otherwise, no.
Ryu
Trust is not that important here.

If someone wants to pay 15 BP for a metahuman origin, I´m throwing the metahuman ability of rigging in the ring for free. The munchkin will pay 10 BP and perform more tricks. It doesnt even contradict the rules.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Why not? A rigging AI is like taking the marked-for-death quality. They don't take dumpshock if the drone gets destroyed, they die.

edit: oh, and ghost-in-the-machine doesn't cost them 15 bp, it's a negative quality - they gain 15 bp.
JonathanC
Yes, but they lose all of the inherent programs than an AI normally starts with...so basically, you're just a sucker who paid 110BP for your "race", and you buy up everything else you'd have on your own. I guess I just figured it'd be kind of cool for a 'ghost' to want to find a body to inhabit (I can totally understand forbidding it at chargen). If all they can do is remote control it, that seems a little lame.
Jaid
if it makes you feel any better, it can be ridiculously strong if you just give them codeslinger(control device) and specialise all their vehicle skills in remote operation =P
Ryu
It´s a negative quality? Never mind my previous post. I´d permit you to buy the 5BP pilot origin for an e-ghost rigger.

I could need some help figuring out why a destroyed drone spells certain AI death? The drone does not automatically have to be the home node, or does it? You could well rig like anyone else.
jago668
I'd let them do it, because an AI without the inherent programs is kinda junky. So letting them walk around in a drone seems a small compensation.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Ryu @ Sep 1 2008, 08:34 AM) *
It´s a negative quality? Never mind my previous post. I´d permit you to buy the 5BP pilot origin for an e-ghost rigger.

Yeah, that's why it says bonus: 15 bp. As opposed to the Piloting Origin positive quality that says Cost: 5 or 10 bp. Kinda wish they'd used a big + or - wingding to lead into qualities.


QUOTE (Ryu @ Sep 1 2008, 08:34 AM) *
I could need some help figuring out why a destroyed drone spells certain AI death? The drone does not automatically have to be the home node, or does it? You could well rig like anyone else.

Assuming I'm not misreading it, it's death because:
QUOTE (SR Companion p. 90)
An AI can only be destroyed under three circumstances. First, if its home node is shut down while the AI is present and in the process of realigning, it is slain. Second, the AI is killed if the node in which an AI is running or trapped is physically destroyed. Third, the AI is destroyed if attribute loss from Matrix damage overflow reduces one of its Mental attributes to zero.

Note the 2nd case. If they're rigging, they're in the drone. If they're just RC'ing it, they don't have to be.
Ryu
"An AI counts as a single program
toward the process limit of the node in which it is residing. It may
also make connections and create icons in other nodes as a normal
Matrix user, but it exists in a single node at any given time. An AI
may, as a Complex Action, move to another node to which it has
an open subscription and on which it has admin access privileges.

While a metasapient may reside in a drone, and even use a drone
as its home node, it may not “jump into? a drone or other rigged
device, as it has no motor cortex with which to interface."

The second part is countered by buying pilot origin. So you can base your AI on the hottest nexus you can pay for, and jump into drones like a rigger would from the comlink. Destruction of the nexus would kill the AI, but destruction of a subscribed node just kills the subscription.
kuatous
another way to look at this is to apply it to a specialty bio drone or even a cyborg giving them the almost alive perks.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Ryu @ Sep 1 2008, 12:30 PM) *
"An AI counts as a single program
toward the process limit of the node in which it is residing. It may
also make connections and create icons in other nodes as a normal
Matrix user, but it exists in a single node at any given time. An AI
may, as a Complex Action, move to another node to which it has
an open subscription and on which it has admin access privileges.

While a metasapient may reside in a drone, and even use a drone
as its home node, it may not “jump into? a drone or other rigged
device, as it has no motor cortex with which to interface."

The second part is countered by buying pilot origin. So you can base your AI on the hottest nexus you can pay for, and jump into drones like a rigger would from the comlink. Destruction of the nexus would kill the AI, but destruction of a subscribed node just kills the subscription.

Well yes, but Pilot Origin doesn't really give with an E-Ghost...you either started life as a person, or a pilot program. You can't be both.
Ryu
I´m aware. But I´d be flexible in that regard - your main obstacle would be convincing me of the AI idea.
JonathanC
Well, there's no decent anthroform drone that a player could buy at chargen anyway. Honestly I'm re-thinking the idea...the whole idea of being a ghost is that you don't really have a physical form. As for convincing a GM...it's a legitimate option in the Runner's Companion, and not terribly overpowered. I actually think it might work out better than a technomancer, who becomes kind of a liability when the shooting starts. An AI PC has all the benefits of 'living the matrix' from a story and game mechanics perspective, but you don't have to shield them during combat.

Plus, it costs a bunch of points, and gives you a good reason to say no to the next guy who wants to play a Rigger in a bag type who never leaves his apartment.
Coldhand Jake
Does anyone else think about Kenshiro 'Zero' Cochrane, aka Ghost Rider 2099, when they read this topic? I was a big fan, and this would be exactly how to emulate the character, a hacker/rigger e-ghost AI, newly "formatted", dumped into a wicked weapon-covered anthroform body. I know I'd play it, if I hadn't already done it in Heroes Unlimited/RIFTS, and my STs would kick me square in the balls for it...
Mordinvan
I'm just curious why aside from game balancing issues you can't copy an A.I.?
If its in a node, and the node is deactivated, the A.I. becomes nothing more then a program in resident memory. That memory should be able to be accessed and copied without reactivating the device, or running any of its onboard programming. Then put the copied memory files into a second device of the same make/model, and the turn them both on. You should have two working copies of the A.I.?
JonathanC
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 7 2008, 03:32 PM) *
I'm just curious why aside from game balancing issues you can't copy an A.I.?
If its in a node, and the node is deactivated, the A.I. becomes nothing more then a program in resident memory. That memory should be able to be accessed and copied without reactivating the device, or running any of its onboard programming. Then put the copied memory files into a second device of the same make/model, and the turn them both on. You should have two working copies of the A.I.?

Because AIs are unique individuals. By the same token, the fact that we can directly interface a human brain with a computer in SR should suggest that it would be easy to "copy" a person and put them in another body, but it doesn't quite work that way. We can make clones of people, and I suppose it's quite possible to 'clone' an AI, at least in theory. But it wouldn't be the same individual.
GreyBrother
The core of the AI isn't where you "cage" it. IMHO you can copy that incarnation of the AI but would get something along the program the AI emerged from.
Ol' Scratch
Why exactly are the two not compatible again? E-ghosts are not necessarily metahuman "souls" trapped in the Matrix. They're just AIs that believe they were once someone else, whether they are or aren't doesn't really matter.

It's very easy to see a Pilot program absorbing some of the memories or personality traits of a rigger that was controlling it just before the Big Accident™ that sparked its self-awareness. In fact there's a number of different ideas that blend the two very nicely. I see nothing that excludes you from taking both qualities and, in all honesty, it's one of the few ideas for a PC e-ghost that I really like.
Adarael
That's actually a really cool idea, Doc. I may have to lift that for a future something.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Sep 7 2008, 05:44 PM) *
The core of the AI isn't where you "cage" it. IMHO you can copy that incarnation of the AI but would get something along the program the AI emerged from.


The only problem is, all the A.I. is, is a set of data. Unless a technomancer can 'asense' it or something, its not actually alive, and can not lay claim to the gestalt phenomena which having a soul might allow for.
If you needed something other then data for an A.I. to exist then turning off the device would kill the A.I. and something new would emerge when the device was reactivated.
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