Hello folks, new here, though I've been lurking for a while, been reading some of the discussion on Runner's Companion, and looking it over myself, even fiddling with character creation a bit, though I'd go over some of the things I've noticed, at least, with regards to some of the arguements and discussions regarding them. I wanted to visit the matter myself, so below, are my conclusions.

Priority System - Favors Humans, especially if Mages/Technomancers, characters tend to be less verstile then the other systems
Build Point System - Slightly Favors Metahumans, but evens out, characters somewhat versitle, but specilizing is more useful
Karma System - Favors Metahumans, characters much broader then other two systems, and often more powerful, IMO

I don't care for the Priority System, makes me feel like a character is railroaded into certain builds, no real choice about it.

The build point system, I do like, generally it works, though I prefer the 500 point games to 400, though 400 is ok.. and I'll never play in a 300 point game.

Generally, I like the Karma system best, in part, due to a liking for the versitality of starting characters, and because it's one system for all, creation and advancement...

Created an powerful combat focused Elven Wolf Shaman in all 3 system. though not identical every time, especially in the Karma system, ended up with a much more capable character there.

A basic rundown of each character.. not detailed, sense I have them on paper, not in the computer.. yet, so if there are discrepancies, it's due to that.. also, didn't think I needed to go too deep into it. They are not strickly identical, but one really has no choice about that, using different systems.

Priority System

Catagory Choices - BADCE

Dislike the fact that in this system, I had fewer choices, and sense I picked up Mentor Spirit for all of them.. was required to take a disadvantage, unlike the other systems... also, gave him Apptitude for Spellcasting, so took an allergy and Inept with Automatics. A Human character could do much better here, sense he would be able to put the B catagory in something other then race, and if he decided to take the same Catagories.. his edge would be 6.. if he switched the B with the D, he could still have a Magic of 6, and and Edge of 2, also he would have 4 more attrbute points. Mind you a Troll, Dwarf or Ork might be somewhat better in physicals then the human, but the human has more room to manouver in the Priority System.


Race - Elf
Magic 6, 9 spells, Edge - 2,
Mentor - Wolf.. Aptitude - Spellcasting
Attirbutes Suffered significantly, sense I wanted to focus on his casting ablities.
Charisma 8, Logic at 3 Intuition at 2, Willpower at 5, Agility at 2, all others at 1
Skills were somewhat better, one skill group allowed
Spellcasting - 7, Counterspelling - 3, Ritual Spellcasting - 1, Conjuring - 4, Assessing - 2, Astral Combat - 2, Arcana - 2, Pistols - 2, Dodge - 2,
15 points for knowledge skills
Resources - 5000.. and 2 contacts... not going to break this down.. suffice it to say, I couldn't get much in the way of resources,

This character is only better the others in Conjuring.. sense I figured I could make him better there, and he's also slightly more charismatic then the BP version.

Build Points

This one was easier, and the character, much more... capable, IMO then the Priority system character, but wasn't able to bring Magic and Charisma to max, like in the priority system, just magic, however, attributes were much better.. and I had lots more spells, and reasources.. though skills were not quite as good, but that was personal choice, wanted better attributes.. IMO. I believe this character is much more capable then the one above, though his Edge is one lower.

Race - Elf
Magic - 6, 14 spells, Edge - 1
Mentor Wolf, Aptitude - Spellcasting
35 points worth of disadvantages [wanted to maximize points]
Body 2, Agility 3, Reaction - 2, Strength - 1, Charisma - 7, Intuition - 3, Logic - 4, Willpower - 5
Spellcasting - 7, Counterspelling - 3, Ritual Magic 1, Conjuring - 2, Dodge - 2, Assesssing - 1, Astral Combat - 1, Arcana - 1, Blades(Swords) - 1[3]

21 point for knowledge skills
2 Contacts
35,000 resources.

Karma

Ok.. if the above Character was more capable, this one put that one to shame... and the skills are good to.. though the first time I tried this system, didn't realize that knowledge skills were no longer free.. this time, though I knew better. I really like how this one came out.. though he's much more capable then either of the previous. In fact, IMO, he surpasses them by an order of magnitude in his verstitality.

Race - Elf
Magic - 6, 14 spells, Edge - 2
Mentor - Wolf, Apptitude - Spellcasting
70 Karma worth of disadvantages
Body - 4, Agility - 6, Reaction - 4, Strength - 3, Charisma - 8, Intuition - 5, Logic - 5, Willpower - 5
Spellcasting - 7, Counterspelling - 3, Ritual Spellcasting - 2, Conjuring - 3, Assessing - 2, Astral Combat - 3, Dodge - 3, Perception - 2, Pistols - 3, Blades [Swords] - 2[4], Enchanting - 1
21 points in Knowledge skills
1 Contact
1 Weapon Focus
Resources - 50,000

Looking over, I see far more versitality and skill in this character then in the previous two, and both skills and attributes are way better....

*****************

In conclusion... Karma is the best system for Verstilality, and certainly Favors Metahumans, but sense the Priority System Favors Humans, I think that's fair, though you may not. The BP system is most likly the fairest system of the 3, actually, which makes sense, after all, it is the generic creation system.

Priority System - I have not reviewed it, and do not intend to. I have always hated such systems, and suspect this time will be no different.

Build Point System - Although it does favor Metatypes over Humans, the difference is so small it can easily be ignored with no practical impact on game balance. It's largest flaw is it's tendency to favor min/maxing.

Karma System - This system favors Metatypes over Humans to the point of obvious game balance issues. This is a significant problem. It's largest advantage is that (if you ignore the Metatype issue) it virtually eliminates min/maxing. Karma Generation (RAW) creates characters approximately equal to 500 Build Point characters.

As an example of the Karma Generation flaw;
Using Build Points, Free Spirits are by far least powerful character option. This is a flaw with the Free Spirit costs.
Using Karma, Free Spirits are by far the most powerful character option. This is a flaw with the Karma Generation (ignoring racial costs).

Nice comparison; I prefer the karma system, too.

(You´d have to retool a bit to buy some spells, the full 14 weight in at 70 karma... )

Oh, I swear by the Karma system these days. I love a broad character; lots of 2-4 skills in there. Yeah, that top character...1's in Physical? He'd be paste in a session, unable to wear armor, unable to move between low Body and Strength. The second one is still quite flimsy(honestly, unless it's for a character purpose; I rock at least a 3 body with a concept if I expect them to get anywhere near combat), but it is better overall. The Karma version rocks; he's great at casting and can hold his own if he's attacked, which is something the other two can't do that well(and the first can't do at all.)

I love the Karma system because it lets me mix and match about any kind of build I want, and we tend to enjoy broad, rounded builds with one or two ''biggies'', than one biggie and a bunch of...nothing. I find with Karma, the characters don't grow up as much, as out. They do grow up, indeed; but once we tried making some of our favorites, I dunno if we want to go back anytime soon.

Just a couple questions. How much BP was used? How much Karma was given?

I did a few of these myself. My concept was for a late 20's Weapon Specialist. Human fellow, who is smart, tough, and does love weapons and combat-between use, practice, AND building and repairing them. He basically plays the role of the guy who can figure out/improvise build about anything, and use them to a high degree. Just ahh...picture a guy with shoulder-length, shaggy dyed white hair and glasses.

Since he's a mundane human, he makes out, well, pretty strong under all three. I used Priority, 400 BP, 750 Karma(which, yes...is more than 400 BP. But I did it anyhow.)

I'm assumed to be using our houserules of no Availability limit at chargen, though I'm not really showing my gear purchases, but I'll make notes where it's appropriate.


Priority:

Heritage(D)-1 special attribute point
Attributes(B)-17
Skills(A)-38/2
Resources-C(70,000)
Contacts: 4
+/- qualities equal out. + qualities include 3 levels of varied martial arts.
I will post the modified attributes next to them, and then a rundown of what ware I got.

Attributes: Body 4(+1 dmg), Agility 4(6) Reaction 3(4) Strength 3(5) Charisma 2 Intuition 3 Logic 3 Willpower 3 Edge 3 Initative 6(7)/1(2)
Ware: Muscle Replacement 2, Aluminum Bone Lacing, Wired Reflexes 1, 34,000 nuyen left
Skills: Firearms Grou 4, Unarmed/Martial Arts 5+2, Blades 3, Clubs 1, Armorer 4, Thrown Weapons 2, Archery 2, Etiquette/Corp 3+2, Heavy Weapons 3, Athletics Skill Group 2, Infiltration 2, Pilot Ground Craft 2, Perception 3.
18 points for Knowledges and Languages

Well, the no Availability limit at chargen didn't matter; he didn't have enough nuyen to really do anything with it. He's quite strong, though; his die pools don't really drop below 6, or go over 13. He's sort of ''low end runner'' powered, IMO. Not a ''low power'' game, per se-that's more in the 300-320 BP range, but I picture this guy here kind of fitting in with something like the Snatch movie. No glaring weaknesses DP wise, no massive strengths. For our typical campaigns, it's a bit lower-end though; again, we avoid the Availablity limit and tend to play more ''midpower'' games. But he's fairly solid. He's not much socially, however(he's got good Etiquette, but doesn't have much else), but he can throw a few dice with about every kind of weapon out there, which, for a weapons specialist, was what I was going for. He also, with 7 dice, manages to put them together and take them apart with some skill. He's got a few other touches as well to help; though his Attributes are pretty much just average to slightly above, naturally. I kind of pictured them higher for this guy, being rather experienced, educated, and practicing body/mind stuff quite often.

Ok, 400 BPs. Again, no Availability limit houserule in place. (If there WAS the limit, I would have finagled 10 BP to get restricted gear a couple of times.)

400 BP: (2 levels of martial arts taken, +25 BP of Negative Qualities for 425.)

Contacts: 13 BP
Resources: 40 BP(200,000)
Martial Arts Maneuvers: 6 BP

Body 4[5, +2 dmg], Agility 4[8] Reaction 3[5] Strength 4[8] Charisma 3 Intuition 3 Logic 4 Willpower 3 E 3 Initative 6[8]/1(2)
Ware: Muscle Augmentation/Toner 3, Suprathyroid, Ceramic Bone Lacing, Wired Reflex 1 [77,000 nuyen remaining]
Active Skills(146 BP):
Firearms Skill Group 3, Unarmed/Martial Arts 5/+2, Blades 3, Clubs 1, Athletics Group 1, Negotiations 2, Etiquette/Street 3+2, Thrown Weapons 2, Archery 1, Heavy Weapons 2, Perception 3, Infiltration 1, Pilot Ground Craft 1, Armorer 4
21 points for Knowledge/Language

Well, obviously a bit more minmaxed; by increasing his Attributes, his overall DP goes up, even though a few skills are lower. However, in lowering the skills I was able to pick him up Negotiations, which lets him do a bit more on the social side of things. Same skill list, but just...better, overall. Natural attributes are improved, and his resources were able to be more than doubled, allowing further increase, and more Essence saved as well, due to bioware. WHat he was before, only better. This leads me to believe the Priority system just plain out makes lower powered characters. Since I maxed out his positive qualities, even if I bought Restricted Gear for the one above for a total RAW character, I still wouldn't have been able to afford it, really. This guy also makes out a bit better on the Initative by a point, which helps, I guess. He also has over 75,000 nuyen remaining for further implants, or lifestyle, shops, kits, and all that good stuff-and naturally, weapons and ammo. Edge is the same.

750 Karma:

Even +/- qualities. 4 levels of varied martial arts(tae kwan do, muay thai, kali, firefight.)

Resources: 100 Karma(250,000)
Contacts: 24 Karma
Martial Arts Maneuvers: 32 Karma

Attributes:

Body: 5[6, +3 dmg], Agility 4[8] Reaction 4[6] Strength 5[9] Charisma 4 Intuition 4 Logic 5[6] Willpower 4 Edge 4 Initative 8[10]/1[2]
Implants: Muscle Augmentation/Toner Lv. 3, Suprathyroid, Titanium Bone Lacing, Wired Reflex Lv. 1, Cerebral Booster Lv. 1, Synthacardium Lv. 3[69,000 nuyen remaining]
Active Skills: Firearms Skill Group 4, Unarmed/Martial Arts 5+2, Blades 4, Clubs 2, Athletics Skill Group 2, Armorer 5, Infiltration/Urban 2+2, Perception 3, Negotations 3, Heavy Weapons 3, Archery 2, Throwing Weapons 2, Pilot Ground Craft/Wheeled 1+2, Data Search 1, Etiquette/Corp 3+2
47 Karma for Knowledge/Language Skills


Well, what can I say, better every way. His natural attributes rock, his skills have added to them-while his Agility is the same from the 400 BP version, I was able to bump a few of the skills back up, as well as add a couple other goodies like Data Search to help out. He now throws 11 dice to build/repair weapons. He's got a full suite of pretty awesome cyberware, and a full 8 Martial Arts manuevers(400 BP version has 3.) This is a guy that looks like he's been tinkering with weapons and combat from the time he was 18 until he's 29, about every day, and been educated in a few things as well. Some of his DPs are scary; his firearms throw 12(14 with a smartlink), his unarmed combat is really strong at a whopping 15 dice(16 with Kick Attack), and his social skills are all around stronger, too. His initiative is better, and his Edge is one higher, which will enable him to purchase another pass now and again if he needs it. Oddly enough, the differences between the 400 BP version and this guy aren't really that much on the combat side of things-in fact, it's a die here or there. Where this guy comes out are his other skills/attributes. Better though? Oh yeah.

Yeah. Priority, I think, has it's merits(I found I did VERY little minmaxing or tweaking with that...I jammed the numbers in and ran.) I could see it being pretty useful for a one-shot, ''hey guys, I wanna run Shadowrun, everyone make characters'', and it can be adjusted fairly easily point-wise up or down. It's not totally my cup of tea, though. I think a slightly sadistic part of my LIKES the tweaking.

BP, though, I tweak more. Oddly enough, I still think that my Weapons Specialist would be almost be more powerful under 500 BP than 750 Karma(trying to figure out the exact cost is kinda hard, since 400 BP characters can range from 450-550 karma if you translate them, depending.) But we plan on using the 750 method, as it seems to fit our sorta slighly more manga-esque but still gritty at heart type of game. But I think you're right-Priority favors minimal-tweaking fast made characters, BP minmaxing, Karma rounded but purely customizable(with a little bit of a boost behind them.)

Actually, I know that to you, those are problems, I don't nessarily believe that a game system should be perfectly balanced, also I believe Free Spirits should be the most powerful Character option, should the GM allow them... Don't like the way they work out in the BP system at all, though I still might, if I was GM, require 500 Karma to play a Free Spirit.

Btw, using the Karma System, I can create a human character with abilites that you can't match with orc or troll..in logic at least Mage, Exceptional Attribute - Logic, Genetic Augmentation - Logic, Cerebral Booster - 2... Magic 5 [Edited down, momentary brain lapse, forgot Cerebral Booster Costs Essence], though I admit, a Dwarf or Elf mage can do better, in charisma or willpower, and the Orc/Troll will be tougher and stronger, but that's true regardless of character type, any Orc/Troll or Dwarf for that matter will be tougher then a human. Though, for a mage, strength doesn't matter all that much.

Besides, if you have a problem with this.. just make the race cost equal to build points x 2 in Karma.. I presonally don't like it, but it works. Of course, I don't like playing humans, and from what I've read, you do, so that likly colors my viewpoint.




Why do you think I took 70 points worth of disadvantages... all aspects of the character are not down there.. I suppose, I could put them up again, but I was trying not to be too long winded.



Standard, 400 BPs, and 750 Karma


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Thanks for the feeback, especially from ElFenrir, another good comparison.. and your right about the Priority System, it tends toward lower power characters. I especially dislike the feeling of being handcuffed into certain character types. Not going to make any further comparisons to it.. though I think I'll compare the 500 BP option to the 750 Karma and 1000 Karma, will post my results when I'm done.

I prefer Karma to the other two for one very simple reason, more well rounded characters. The priority; and to a slightly less extent, the build point system; really lend themselves to min/maxing. If you made a troll that wasn't maxed out on body and strength, you shot yourself in the foot for later in the game. The karma it takes to go from max-1 to max in either strength or body could take all your other attributes to max. With a karma gen system there is no difference between the pre-start character developement and post-start development.

Characters with one or two high value skills and many more low value skills can do more and seem more "real" than ones with four or five maxed skills. I don't mind making choices to create a better character to play, I just don't like being punished for trying to make a good charcter.

That said, doing a character by karma does take longer, though not that much more than the BP. Priorities are great for one-off, quick games.

Ok, I tried again, creating a Free Spirit...

Right now, I have this to say about that, for BP character generation, Free Spirits are not worth much, IMO, that 250 BP drain makes a Free Spirit with more then Force 4 not all that possible, and if you want them to have reasonable attributes, it only makes it worse. Slightly better with 500 point character, but not much.

With the Karma System, the Free Spirit suddenly becomes a viable character, but also has the potential to overshadow any other characters in the game, with all of the additional powers they get... especially if you max out edge, spells, and sorcery skills. This becomes slightly better if you charge them for the Free Spirit, but a 500 Karma point cost, is a bit steep, although less so when you use 1000 points to create.

I think the build point system lends itself to min-maxing because there really are certain optimal things to get for certain builds, and to get them, other areas need to be pared down more. You can an ultra-specialist who has the bare minimum in other areas, a specialist who is either well-rounded or has a second specialty, or a generalist who is not exceptional, but still pretty good, in a fairly wide range of skills.

The point system is tight, though, so it is easy to be mess it up. You can spend so much wringing out the last one or two dice in your specialty that you are useless in a lot of other areas, or you can easily overgeneralize to the point of uselessness. Even doing something like taking 4's instead of 3's for a few non-essential Attributes can result in a significantly weaker character.


I'll preface by saying the while I have seen some Karma builds, I don't have Runner's Companion yet. But it seems to me that Karma-gen doesn't discourage min-maxing by making it too expensive, but rather, it lets you max-max by giving you lots of points to spend. Of course characters grow outwards, rather than upwards - the hard caps at char-gen are still the same, so that's the only place they have left to go. The only difference is that with all of those extra points, the martial arts adept can also be decent at many other things, while the former generalist build can go ahead and beef up one area. You basically can be a generalist and a specialist, rather than having to choose one or the other.

Once you pick up RC, you might soon discover that really maxing out hurts in karmagen.
Yesterday i tried to test the system a bit by building an eagle/elf shapeshifter.
Right, the race that gives you the potentially highest drain pool short of dragons and high-force spirits.
Build under a generation system that pours ~100-200 additional karma points on average 400BP characters when you convert them.
And that, at the same time, would save me 100 points i didn't have to pay for metatype (did i mention it's actually an eagle/dryad shifter?).

So i started by not bothering in the least about how many points i would have to spend.
I bought what seemed appropriate, then added up the points when i was halfway through and discovered that, before i had bought any gear or contacts, bonded any foci or initiated (i had bought 10 spells, though), i was already at 771 karma.

The reason for that was partially that i had been extremely generous with skills, (as said above, anything i thought to be appropriate for a shapeshifting candomblé priest fighting the Azzies at the Amazonian border), but even more so that high attribute values are extremely expensive.
Buying Willpower up from 3 to 8?
That's 93 points.
Charisma (also softmaxed at was a bit cheaper, as it already started at 4, but still, that's 81 points.
Deciding that Edge and Magic 5 where nice to have did contribute to the high cost as well, though it hurt a lot less.

You can expect similar results when trying to build what would be a typical troll close combat specialist.

Optimizing a karma-built character works by completely different parameters.

The most efficient way to do this would be to look for all the cheap, minor bonus dice you'd normally pick up later, beefing up your dicepools one +2 bonus at a time with your ample ressources while mostly avoiding any base DP in the double digits.

Oh yeah. I made a Elf-Bear Shapeshifter, who was an Adept, and he was a hell of a cost. I actually wanted him strong...for me to increase his natural Body and Strength to 11 each(the equivalent of having 2 5's on a human, which would cost 84 points total) cost me a staggering 114 Karma EACH, or 228 Karma. For 2 attributes. Now, granted, he got 2 11's out of the deal, but that is 1/3 of his entire starting karma on 2 attributes; in BP form, it would have been 80 BPs. Now, that's still a fair amount, but it's only...1/5 of the starting BP for a character to get 2 5's. It's no wonder that the Karma pool is high at 750, some characters, if you don't want to play, as said, the Body/Strength 5 Trolls all the time, need those points.

Again, taking mid scores is the way to go. I recently made up 3 characters, and the guy that has 1 6 skill and the rest around 2-3(I think one 4 in there), made out a lot better than the other two, who I purchased a couple 5 rated and a couple 4 rated skills each. Under BP method, one 4 skill costs 16 BP, two skills at 2(+2) cost 10 each; it costs 4 more BP to take the two lower skills with specializations. Under Karma, one skill at 4 costs 22 BP...two at 2+2 are 10 Karma each...making it CHEAPER to purchase two skills at 2+2.

But agreed, that after 4 is when the costs start mounting. Attribute at 4? 27 Karma. Not bad at all. at 5? 42 Karma. Looks a bit more painful.

Skillwise, 22 karma for a 4...32 Karma for a 5. One point, 10 karma more. Yeah.

When most characters do end up with a stronger attribute base, what it is that you see less 2's(but you DO still see them. I have a karmagen character with a 2. They're a mage, however, and i went a little silly with spells and stuff), but a solid 3-4 base and a couple 5's. Or you see folks, like a buddy of mine's character, with quite a few 5's but lower things elsewhere(his character is more of a street dude with little formal training but great raw potential).

Just to get things straight, so I know I'm reading it clearly it sounds like by karma creation rules you don't pay anything for the base attibutes of your metatype/race, ie elf, troll or even free spirit?
Is this correct, or did I horribly miss read something somewhere?

Nope, that's it. Unless the option is an inherited metatype (ghouls, changelings, etc.) in which case they're mostly treated as Positive Qualities.

The reasoning behind it is terribly weak, too. "Well, they have to pay more for their high stats, you see, so it balances out." It boggles the mind, especially since no one is forced to go above the human norms with the attributes. Especially with races that don't really go outside the human norms to begin with. Hell, some just come with flat-out bonuses in that regard (such as free spirits who begin the game with a 2 across the board for free) with no real drawbacks.

Whoever thought it was a good idea is completely and irrevocably daft.

This is what I like about karma-gen systems - the choices you make help you define the character you are making. It also opens up many more characters. Under the BP system, a troll face is an almost imposible character to make. I played one with BeCKS a long time ago, and he was fun.

Karma-gen does punish you for maxing out your character, and if you play a game that is more epic in style, it is probably not a good fit. But if you like your game with a lot of legwork and planning, you need all those odd skills, because everyone plays multiple roles. I also see more knowledge skills with karma, because you only need a 2 or a 3 in a knowledge skill to make it very useful.

What is new? You could always play an ork with Body 4 and Strength 3 under the BP system. All in all, the karma system favours metatypes less.

Orks have an advantage of 36 karma instead of 20 BP, really not that new. 5%. Trolls have it good, but they are still too large for everything, and will find that every little increase over the racial minimum is VERY pricey. And the high and evenly distributed powerlevel of the karma system will make min/maxed characters feel very odd.

A possible fix for that would be to charge racial BPx2, buy stats up from 1, regardles of metatype, and then add a racial modifier on top of it.
Under these circumstances, one could also replace the metatype-dependant attribute point harcap with a flat 350 max points.
Anyone tried this out yet?

And in fact, 20BP are 'worth' 40 Karma.

...what?

Say you have a Street Samurai starting character with 4's across the board for their eight attributes. One's an ork metavarient, one's a human. The ork has more growth potential, spends less on his attributes, comes with a number of perks, and can even bolster their physical attributes through implants higher than the human. All the human gets is a +1 max raiting on their Edge which doesn't even come into play in this example.

Why, exactly, do they cost the same amount of Karma racially? And how on earth does it "favor metatypes less?" Especially after you calculated that orks gain 36 karma basically for free.

That would be "fixing" as in "making metas more powerful".

My advice would be to play it out as written first, then tweak it as needed for your game.

Trolls and orks seem to make out really well. But if you actually play out the discrimination that effects both, and don't forget to add the additional costs of being a troll, they really don't get much of a bonus. And as Ryu points out, buying anything over the racial minimum in strength or body becomes a costly process.

The fact of the matter is that the character you would make under one method is not the character you would make under another. Comparing two builds does nothing but show that that build has a different cost. You have to play it out and see how you like it.

Everyone has a different take on character generation, I like karma, because it makes me feel like I have more options. YMMV.

Lots more feedback I see, glad to see it, addressing some of the different statements and discussions made.

Dr. Funkenstein & Rasumichin: I disagree with calling them daft, I like the system as it's presented, yes, Metatypes are favored more in the Karma system, that's just the way it is, if you really have to have a fix for it, which presonally, I don't, but I understand where those who do are coming from, just use the build point cost x2, but I've come up with another idea.. allow humans to put twice as many points in qualities as the other races. That gives humans a greater versitality then the other races, giving them a nitch that the others don't have, and it doesn't really alter the system at all.

Skip: Of course characters are different base on build systems, but that doesn't mean comparing them has no value, it lets us get a better view of the strengths and weaknesses of the various character builds. And it lets us learn, and concider, and lets the various GM's look over them, and decide which system is best for thier games.

Regarding Free Spirits.. starting with 2 across the board is only 6 free karma for each, as you begin to push the points up, that begins to mean next to nothing, it's 60 extra Karma, I know, but, trolls have 84 extra karma, and elves 21, so they are really little different from the issues with other Metatypes. No, where free spirits shine is in the extra powers that they get, and the fact that they get the Magician Quality for free, and thier magic is based on thier power, thier most important stat, sense you have to raise it to raise any others, your automatically raising magic when you do.

Well, i didn't call call em that.
Not in the slightest.
I just suggested a fix for something many people describe as a downside of karmagen.
A fix that could probably work around the problems of other suggested houserules.
And i wanted to know wether someone has any experiences with that.
That's all.

By now, i'm using the system as is and will most likely stick to it, even though i will still stat out characters with BP from time to time.
It doesn't necessarily need fixing IMHO, it just has different limitations and effects than BPgen and some people dislike those.
I'm by now uncertain about them, as i have little experience with it.
I was just stating some of them and looking for feedback



Which, on its own, means effectively shooting every troll with stats average for his race in the knees and making the typical troll sam of old nearly impossible to build without crippling him.
The system doesn't favor metatypes per sé, it favors metas with human stats and punishes characters with above-human stats.





In fact, it alters the system more than any other "fix" for karmagen i've seen so far as a whole bunch of qualities (Type O System, Exceptional Attribute) are specifically priced to avoid certain combinations under the 35BP cap.
SURGE has already softened this up a great deal, but actually doubling the cap along with SURGE available, would radicallly increase that tendency.
And with the likely importance of qualities in the karma system, along with the fact that hardcaps such as this are one of the two central limiting mechanisms, it could actually be even more imbalanced than the previous system.

The thing is, with trying to perfectly 100% balance humans and metahumans...it's near impossible.

SR2. Priority A metas. You play a meta, you almost were shooting yourself in the foot for anything more than a sam or a tech.

SR3: Better. Orks and Dwarves still had that tasty D priority, though...while Elves, getting less than either of them, ended up in C. Again, not perfectly balanced.

SR3, BP system: Well, they cost points...and under that system...I recall, humans still seemed a bit more attractive.

BP system, SR 4: I dunno, but I see an awful lot of Orks these days, which makes me wonder just how tightly it's balanced. It seems it, yes...but some of the costs are a little off(again, Dwarves and Orks get more in the end for less.)

Karmagen: Honestly, i think they about nailed it here as close as it's going to get. IMO, sometimes things can be hurt more by trying to tweak them and tweak them. Let's see some of the ideas that have been presented:

1. Make metas cost their Bpx2.
Result: Well, this one, alone, isn't bad, as long as they still get their 1/2 Karma + cost in Attributes.
Downsides: As mentioned, the metas really don't get to take advantage of their big bonuses without getting crippled.

2. Limit Metas to the same Attribute karma(half).
Result: Same as 1. Forces the metas with the big points to still take them down, lest they just be really low in other areas, making either ''below average physical trolls who are smart'' or ''big, dumb brutes''. I mean, maybe someone wants to play a troll with average Strength really good Body who happens to be very learned.

3. Give humans more + qualities to maybe make them a bit more attractive.
Result: On the surface, it seems ok. But as mentioned, the changeling qualities sort of open up more BPs nowadays anyway(5 BP Surge allows 10 BP extra Qualities from a certain list, and then some...netting 5 extra BPs of qualities.) And yes, there are certain combinations that can be very nasty when taken together(if you have players who aren't looking to abuse the system, this isn't a problem. But...as a book rule, it's basically open for everyone.)

So yeah. Trying to tweak away can end up opening more problems later. I'm in the boat of try it out first; if for some reason, you never see a human again at your table in 3-4 different games, then maybe something is wrong. Again, it's working fine right now, I think. Not everything in a game is going to be perfectly 100% balanced, and i think trying to make it so is almost an impossible mission.

No, you didn't call them daft, but I was responding to more then just you, which is why there were two names there, rather then just one, and part of why I didn't simply quote you. Generally, any fix to the Karma system is not really going to work that well, in my opinion, but the the bpx2 system is simplist one. The Quality idea, is just that, an idea, though, I should point out, I don't view even a base Human who is SURGE as human anymore, any surge character would still be limited. But no, I really don't like either of those fixes, and don't think the Karma system needs fixing.

To be completely frank, again, in my opinion, those people who have problems with the Karma system, shouldn't use it. There are two other systems that work fine for character creation, use them instead, if you really don't like the Karma system. Of course, the problem I think, is that many people like the Karma system, but don't like the way it seems to favor Metahumans. To them, I say, pay it some, keep fiddling with it until you have a sysem that works for you, but don't count on it working for any other groups, every gaming group has a different dynamic, that's just the way it is.

Also, did an Attribute Chart, that some people may find interesting, the Karma cost to raise an attribute up to 12, with a starting point from 1 to 5.

1 2 3 4 5

2 6
3 15 9
4 27 21 12
5 42 36 27 15
6 60 54 45 33 18
7 81 75 66 54 39
8 105 99 90 78 63
9 132 126 117 105 90
10 162 156 147 135 120
11 195 189 180 168 153
12 231 225 216 204 189

I don't think that humans will disappear from the table.
I'm rebuilding a human spellcaster PC of mine with 750k and after converting him, adding a lot of low-level skills to flesh him out, tweaking a little bit and binding 2 new foci, i still have ~ a hundred karma left.
I could make him a dwarf with the same stats (except for a higher STR, which would make no difference at all for this character) and would save some points, but it would not change much.
I've blown almost a hundred points on knowledge skills, i think he wouldn't suffer noticably from spending 6 karma more on Willpower, not having to get Night Vision as aquality and not having the toxin and pathogen bonus dice and STR3.

I could also go elf and max Charisma, but for these additional drain dice, i would really have to pay.
So much, in fact, that i could as well get Restricted Gear and increase my power focus to Force 4.

As a human spellcaster, this character is actually punished less by the system, as it is much easier for elfs or dwarfs to bring their higher drain stat maxima, their main advantage over human casters, to bear in the BP system.

Under karma gen, high maximum stats are not nearly as desireable as when building with BP, so any concept relying on those will be less attractive- which suddenly makes a human spellcaster much less diadvantaged to a dwarf or elf than before.

As i said, it works different.

I actually agree, it was more my way of saying I am not reading everyone's builds.

I agree, if you take everything at moderate to low levels, your character looks almost overpowered in the sheer breadth of his abilities and knowledge. However, in order to be effective a character usually needs to max out one attribute and a few core skills. Paying for those is what makes karma expensive. It really depends on the type of game you are playing and the type of play you are looking to encourage. BPs tend to emphasize the ends of the scale, as you get a much larger benefit from your points if you put them in a few places and max out the ability or skill. Karma-gen encourages many low level skills and mid level attributes.

Also remember that some of the math doesn't play out easily. Trolls pay more for everything, forever, not just at generation. They deal with the most bigotry and stand out in a crowd - usually literally. Elves on the other hand, are elves. The subtle benefits they get are almost all roleplay benefits.

Human: Agility 6, Charisma 6, Willpower 6, Edge 6. Ability to continue improving Edge by +1. Karma Cost: 240 Karma.
Elf: Agiliy 6, Charisma 6, Willpower 6, Edge 6. Ability to continue improving Charisma by +2, Agility by +1, greater ability to expand both Charisma and Agility through implants, Low-Light Vision. Karma Cost: 240 Karma.

How is the Elf ineffective compared to the Human again?

You'd be surprised how much fun the limitation can be. I came up with frankly one of my better group ideas while doing Wakshaani's 320BP challenge awhile back. When you've got hard limits, it makes you really think about everything you're doing with a character.

Obviously imo and all of that

Well, while the Elf is purchasing his Attributes for lots of karma to get to those higher levels(21 for Agl 7, 45 for Agl 8 for a total of 61 karma, or a few months playing and not spending anything then), my human would have purchased 6 skills at 2(+2) each, or 2 skills at 3 and 2 at 3(+2), or 2 skills at 4 and another at 3+2, or perhaps Initiated once and increased Magic if that's the way to go, getting more Adept power points...or increased my two 5 skills to 6's, bought specializations for them, increased a 4 to six while I was at it and bought a specialization for THAT....or I might be brave and max out my Edge, one of the most powerful stats in the game...

Can the Elf purchase some Ware to get himself an extra agility above my human? Sure. I dunno, I think my 9 modified Agility is pretty keen, and if I want a human I'll play one for the concept. The one extra Agility of the elf isn't breaking him. I can trade the ability to rarely suffer prejudice and being able to really go anywhere human(yes, Elves suffer some racism), AND my higher Edge for one Agility die. We can get 3 levels of pheremones at the start, but unless they boost Charisma to at least 7 right off the bat they aren't going to see the difference, since their 6+3 is the same as my 6+3.

Oddly enough, I know *very* few people who naturally max Attributes in game, or even purchase up the higher ones. When attributes are purchased in-game with Karma, it's almost ALWAYS; to my experience, to close off the ''weaker links'', so to speak. Sometimes I see someone going all the way, but it's rare. The troll with the 9 Body and 7 Strength rarely saves up the 54 Karma necessary to get them to 10 and 8, respectively. What that troll player, I find, does with that Karma is takes the 27 of it to boost his Willpower to five instead, and maybe maxed that Agility or Reaction for a better initiative, so they can see better results, now. Or they'll take the 54 Karma, get some of those 2's to 3's(only 9), and purchase a bunch of skills, all which, in the end, are actually ''better'' uses of it.

Is the Elf above a bit 'better' than the human? Yeah. I'll admit that. Is it so game-breakingly better that you'll never see a human at the table again as long as you live? I really, really doubt it. Again, I play the race I want to play for my concept, and i know a lot of people here do, as well. If anything, I see people falling under the ''Lure of the Ork'' FAR more under BP than with Karma. (When it comes to mages, the Lure of the Ork or Dwarf.) I mean, when the first thing someone says in a character critique for a spellslinger(especially a non-conjurer) is ''make them an ork or dwarf'', you gotta wonder a few things.

How is the human harmed here?

Yes the elf has more options open to him, if he pays the Karma. The human has the small benefit of being less likely to face a hostile social situation because he is human. As a percentage of the total population humans are still the most common and in some cases that will prove an advantage.

Enough to make a better face or shaman? Probably not, but under a BP system that elf will have a max Charisma too. Does the BP cost offset the difference in the BP to karma cost for the extra two levels? Not completely, but how much is the extra edge and the anonymity of being human worth?

What kind of an argument is that? If you gave the elf a bonus of 5,000 Karma, the Human "isn't harmed" either.


Not much. 5 BP at most based upon similar qualities (Elf Poser, Human Looking, Ork Poser). And that's assuming racism is a major theme in that particular game. And even that's offset by the prejudices a human faces when dealing with, say, the Ork Underground.

The point still remains. Metahumans get all kinds of free perks under the Karma System with exactly zero drawbacks. "Oh, they have to pay more Karma to go over the human norms, so it's really a penalty. Honest." That's not exactly a very coherent or solid argument. Not when you ignore the fact that Humans can't do the same thing and that the only thing Humans really can do is exactly the same thing the other metatypes can; diversify rather than go over those norms. Either through the use of karma or augmentation. And even then they still get gimped in most areas. For example, a Human with Strength 6 will never be able to fully benefit from Muscle Augmentation 4, whereas most other metatypes would in the same situation.

Well, what we did was houserule that people could go above racial maxes normally, if they pay more karma to do so(not at chargen, though, unless you take the appropriate qualities/genetech.) A human in our games can buy an Agility 7, it just costs a bit more(4 times Attribute instead of 3x.) This means the metas can do it to...at increased costs as well, though, making it even more expensive. But Metas cannot go over 6 Edge, unless they take the Lucky quality(it's a special attribute, and we keep it under those rules.) And you know how many people actually decided to purchase their attributes above and beyond this? None.

Or, hell. Make human genes or whatever(or, as a good answer to everything, nanomachines ) adaptable enough that they can purchase over their racial maxes at a higher cost, but Metas can't. Erm, sure, it might not make perfect, logical, sense, but neither does getting hit with an assault cannon and being able to live through it, nor does casting magic. Say Humans can beef themselves past 6 at the 4x or 5x cost. It makes playing Humans possibly more enticing if the players are insisting on playing whatever gives the most pluses and not what's in their heads.

I dunno. I'm just throwing out ideas at this point. As always, YMMV and our table works fine with everything, but obviously some problems have cropped up at other people's tables.

It's the same kind of argument you made when you showed two builds with the same Karma costs and declared it unbalanced.

I explained why I thought the human wasn't harmed below that statement in my post. If you disagree, fine.

So let's do the math. In BP an elf costs 30BP, but allows you to jump from 6 to 8 in Char and 6 to 7 in Agility for "free", a 65 Karma benefit. Using the BP to Karma conversion to compare them, and the elf apparently has a 2.5BP freebie, which I will attribute to the non-Human-looking "cost". The loss of max edge is not quantified, so if anything it seems like the BP char-gen benefits humans over elves.


Two points here, first having to pay Karma is a real cost. As El Fenrir points out, there is a real opportunity cost, unless your games generate 65 Karma for a milk run. Ignoring that cost is disingenuous at best. I have no problem if you want to discount it, because with time and effort that Karma becomes less of a penalty, but it is a very real cost.

Second, your arguments would make sense if SR was based off of atributes only. It is largely a skill based game though, more for some archetypes than others, and spending that 65 Karma on skills instead of attributes more than makes up for the starting differences.

As you point out, the ability to exceed the human maximum is worth something, I just think you fail to recognize the offsetting costs.

Because it was. The Elf had far and away more benefits.


Yep. And as far as Skills and other aspects of character creation, the metatypes are all relatively equal. Attributes and racial abilities are the only differences. Which means they can spend that 65 Karma on their skills instead of attributes, too. The only difference is the Human doesn't get a choice as he's already maxed out his attributes. That choice is a very real and a very tangible benefit. Especially when coupled with everything else (such as Augmentation bonuses, racial powers, and so on).


No, I know that if you really want to break the Human attribute limits with a metatype, you're paying for it. What you're ignoring is that there's no requirement to do so and, in fact, most concepts work just fine without doing so. Take a look at a few sample characters in SR4. The Elven Combat Mage; no Attribute over 5. The Dwarven Drone Rigger, the Dwarven Face, the Ork Gunslinger Adept, the Ork Hacker, the Dwarven Eco-Shaman, the Elven Smuggler, the Troll Street Shaman, and the Elven Weapon Specialists are *all* shining examples of this. Not a one of them breaks the Human attribute limits and, in the Karma system, they all have Karma to spare compared to being created as a Human. At least in the BP system they had to pay something for the free attribute points.

Sorry, but no matter how you try to spin it, that's not game balance.

Play it and tell me you still think it is unbalanced.

And as I pointed out in my post, the cost for the elf meta-type is almost completely due to the mispricing of BP to Karma for the above human attribute levels. Switching to an all karma generator means the cost for the meta-type is zero.

Otherwise lets just chalk it up to a difference of opinion.

A strong troll is NOT the same as a strong human. What people keep arguing is that "Metas are unbalanced because they don't have to go past human norms and thus get points for free." This is so flawed it hurts. Yes, they can *choose* not to go over the human maximums, but that's doing a disservice to the race and choosing to twink a character concept for points alone. A world class strength human is strength 6. A world class strength troll is 10... because it's a fraggin' troll! If you want to have human stats, fine, but you're doing a disservice to your chosen race.

A street sam troll with a str and bod of 6 indeed. Sheesh.

A strong troll is NOT the same as a strong human. What people keep arguing is that "Metas are unbalanced because they don't have to go past human norms and thus get points for free." This is so flawed it hurts. Yes, they can *choose* not to go over the human maximums, but that's doing a disservice to the race and choosing to twink a character concept for points alone. A world class strength human is strength 6. A world class strength troll is 10... because it's a fraggin' troll! If you want to have human stats, fine, but you're doing a disservice to your chosen race.

A street sam troll with a str and bod of 6 indeed. Sheesh.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you're saying I should play around with the Karma creation system, then I have. Quite a bit. And it is unbalanced in this regard.

If you need an example, let's take on one of the sample characters from SR4. Let's say... the Troll Street Shaman on SR4 p. 102. Let's make him a Human (no change in cost in the Karma system) and let's also assume that the sample character sheet equals out to exactly 750 Karma once we boost his Edge to 2 (even though it doesn't). Okay, that's our baseline.

Now, let's rebuild him exactly the same way with the only change of turning him back into a Troll. Hey, guess what. With everything being exactly the same, the Troll not only gets Natural Armor (1/1), Reach 1, and natural Thermographic Vision, BUT he also gets an extra 78(!!!) Karma to boost himself however he wishes. That's enough to buy a couple foci, initiate, boost some attributes, increase/add on skills, gain more contacts... you name it. Too bad the Human doesn't get any of that.

Considering that all but three of the sample characters in SR4 wind up in a similar situation... yeah. It's definitely unbalanced.


Take a look at the sample characters in SR4 again. All but two trolls and one ork are within the human limits, and even out of those three characters only one breaks the number 8 on their sheet. You seem to assume that runners have to max out their attributes to be viable characters. They don't. In fact, I'd say that metahumans like trolls and orks don't even need to try to do so since the average members of their species significantly exceed the norm of the world around them. Why spends months if not years working out when you can totally trash that muscle-bound guy down the street without even trying?

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's unbalanced, but honestly, I have no desire in table top games to balance things, in general, I find that people who complain about it being unbalanced, actually mean.. I don't like it. I'm not say that's the case here, in fact, from what I can see, it's not, but that's my general problem with balancing.

I like the Karma gen system fine, as is, regardless, it favors metatypes yes, that's just the way of it, and no I don't think it should be adjusted for other systems. Of course, I admit, the most balanced system, is the BP system, though it still slightly favors metatypes over the others. In fact, it greatly favors the Troll, with the Orc being the next most favored, then the Dwarf, both of whom are strangely enough, less points then the elf, who is the least favored in the BP system.

Again, you're comparing metas directly to humans and saying they're unbalanced because they have different stats. They're balanced in other ways (higher karma costs to hard-cap attributes, prejudice (even if you don't use it in your game, it's there), size issues & costs, etc), but you consistently discount that because it's not part of chargen I guess. I'm not sure why.

Also, I don't insist that they're hardmaxed to be viable. I've made characters with *no* attributes even softmaxed and had no problems before. But it's unrealistic to think that someone will build a troll, say as a street sam, and only boost attributes to 6 at most. Why? You're taking hits in other areas just to have human maximums on your strong points for less karma? That's silly in my opinion. Obviously, we differ on that view so I'll agree to disagree.

You do realize that the sample character I used was originally a troll, right? That I didn't make the character up. Or that the vast majorty of the sample characters in SR4 are the exact same way. You do realize all this, yes?


They're unbalanced in all those same ways. Humans don't have an option to reach the same attribute scores. Humans can't augment those attributes to nearly the same levelas. Humans suffer prejudice, too (even if you don't use it in your game, it's there). But you consistently discount that because it's something munchkins and min/maxers focus on. I'm not sure why.


What hits, exactly, is a troll street samurai taking by doing such? At worst, his Agility is 5(7), which he can boost right up to the human cap by spending some of his free karma on a quality.

What benefits is a troll street samurai gaining by doing that? More points to spend on attributes (yep, fraid so; he can boost his attributes still), skills, implants, weapons, armor, qualities, and other gear. He *will* be a *significantly* (by 78-84 more Karma) better street samurai than a human would.

Wow, thanks for implying I'm a munckin and min/maxer as well as someone who only wants viable characters with hard-maxed attributes.

You may not be intending it, but you're succeeding in taking pot shots at me for no damned reason.

Honestly, I keep discounting the sample characters for a number of reasons, the biggest being unintentional neglect. I keep skipping over it when replying to you, I'm not sure why. I will say however that due to the inherrent BP cost of hard maxing attributes, that may be why we don't see more of that in the samples. That or they wanted more rounded examples instead of super-optimized doom machines that we create here on DS. *shrug* Just realize they're not the *only* example we can use for shadowrunning metas, and that some *will* have higher attributes because they want to use those advantages.

On another note, I view all attributes as being useful, so the hits to edge, charisma, intuition and logic on a troll mean something to me, even if it doesn't to others.