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toturi
Can the Barret Model 121 load any other ammo other than its special ammo?
Would you allow it?

Can it load a capsule round? or an AV or fletchette round? I was thinking of allowing customised ammo for the Barret but that ammunition would have to be specially made for the PC (ammo type avail/normal ammo avail x Barret ammo avail) or he would have to do it himself. What do you think?
Dashifen
I wouldn't allow it to load normal ammo types but I would allow it to load customized ammunitions designed for the barret. If it's custom made for the player, though, they better be for damned sure they trust the guy making it!
Fortune
And pay through the nose for it. biggrin.gif
northern lights
i have had nearly every character i have ever made buy a barret. everything i have seen says no other ammo. with one exception and that is to have it custom made.

to add a little bit of "real world" clarity to that, it means that the character must keep the spent cartridges (brass) and then either reload it himself or have someone do it gor him. this would be a long and costly process requiring much if not all of the following:

1. getting and using the correct primers. may be standard, may be proprietary.
2. the right powder charge. both in type and amount.
3. the correct bullet. this would likely be proprietary.
4. getting the tools to do it. press, etc.
5. getting the die set to do everything. this should be by far the hardest part except the possibility of #3 if you had to have the bullets cast.

so i am going to relate things in approx present day us currency

1. 20-??? depends on if it uses primers that other rounds use or its own.
2. less than 50 unless it is a special type of power. and that should last for many rounds.
3. hmm. from sheer size i'd suggest 100 for a box of about 20. if they are cast, hike it to 100 per bullet or more to have them cast and/or machined in such a high tolerance way.
4. this would suck and be a thou or two easy. it would also require a shop, tho you could put it in a van, but vans full of reloading supplies like powder and primers go boom easily.
5. even if barret somehow made these available, i wouldn't let a character get their hands on them easily. these should need to be custom machined after getting the specs from the barret grid or something. i'm guessing a minumum of 5k for a full set to do everything from removing the primer to necking to seating the new bullet. though you could get a few years out of them if you take care of them so it is likely a one time expense.

also, the character would need to keep track of his brass after each shot. not hard - people with barrets should never be rushed. though i'd say any particular piece of brass is only good for 25 shots or so before it is in danger of blowing at the neck and eliminating the shooter. so it makes sense to keep buying rounds.

these numbers are rough guesses, it's been years since i sat at the reloading bench, and i never once worked with anything as big as a barret, though i have dealt with 50 cal and 20mm stuff, just never reloaded it.
Austere Emancipator
Never figured out exactly why the Barrett has special ammunition, while others (like Remington 750 and 950) fire the same ammunition but do different damage.

Basically, you'll need to decide whether the Barrett follows the path set by its predecessors, ie whether it's still chambered for a common HMG cartridge (.50BMG). If it is, you should have no trouble getting any of the special ammunition types for it. In fact, if that were the case, you should be capable of buying just about any HMG ammunition and firing it from the Barrett.

If, however, the Barrett 121 has strayed from that path and is more akin to something like the Steyr IWS 2500, ie it is chambered for a cartridge specifically designed for the weapon, and the whole weapon is designed to fire only specific kind of loads (apparently APDS, perhaps even APDSFS), then you might need custom ammunition.

If you're doing the latter, the high demand of the Barrett would certainly have forced Barrett Firearms to do other kinds of ammunition for the gun. I suggest allowing Anti-Vehicular (after all, that's the main justification for the existence of this gun), (EX) Explosive, Regular, and Incendiary. For everything but AV ammo, +2 - +4 Availability, a few more days, and maybe doubled cost. The AV ammo shouldn't get Availability modifiers (since if it's common for any gun, it should be this), but the cost should probably be hiked to 300 or 400 (since the standard ammo already costs the same as AV for other weapons).
Kagetenshi
Just a note, flechette Barret ammo won't exist, as it's a waste of money. At D base damage, all it'll do is make the gun less effective against anything that had a hope in hell of surviving in the first place.

~J
northern lights
the 750 and 950 are sporting rifles. they share ammo cause they have no terribly special designs. they are for game, tho who uses them for that in the shadows? in any event they have no special needs such as silencing or subsonic speeds. barrets are designed different because they are silent. though the amount of suppression is never made clear. although i would be inclined to wonder what effects the suppressor would have on other types of ammo.

ae is right, if the gun is chambered for a common caliber then the player only needs to determine the correct powder charge for the round to function in the barret. that should make these types of ammo pretty available though slightly more expensive.
Austere Emancipator
I'm willing to bet the game designers didn't have a clue about how sound suppression works when they made the Barrett 121, so people should feel free to disregard the whole internal silencer bit.

Shadowrun canon doesn't require anything special from ammunition to be suppressable -- APDS and AV can be suppressed just fine. IRL, where full suppression is quite counter-productive in a long-range anti-material rifle, and (IIRC) a suppressor often has a (minor) detrimental effect on the accuracy of the weapon -- I seem to remember from an earlier thread somewhere that it causes some instability at the muzzle -- a weapon like the Barrett wouldn't have a built-in suppressor. Either way, the suppressor can be ignored.

QUOTE (northern lights)
the 750 and 950 are sporting rifles. they share ammo cause they have no terribly special designs. they are for game, tho who uses them for that in the shadows? in any event they have no special needs such as silencing or subsonic speeds. barrets are designed different because they are silent.

Apart from what I said above, the Barrett entry in the CC doesn't mention the ammunition being different because of the silencing. Far more likely, when looking at the entry, is that the designers figured it'd fire different ammo because its "Big Gun Factor" is so much greater than that of other Sniper Rifles. All while there was a precedent for bigger guns firing the same cartridges as smaller guns, and with different Damage Codes too. This, too, is why I think the Barrett is illogical.
ShadowPhoenix
I would think an internal silencer as opposed to a removable silencer would probably cause sufficiently less accuracy issues as there is no gap or splice between the two components. As for the ammo, I would imagine that the people who designed the Barett 121 were thinking along the lines of .50 BMG round firing Sniper Rifles, which when compared to any other rifle would be "special ammo" whereas it may be more common in Heavy MG's. could be the MG and Rifles were made by seperate people or on seperate days of the game design process? nyahnyah.gif Anyway I would say that the Barett 121 probably uses fairly unpopular(at least in present time) .50 BMG rounds. and that is what would qualify as Special Ammo, and I don't see why you couldn't use modified rounds.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix)
I would think an internal silencer as opposed to a removable silencer would probably cause sufficiently less accuracy issues as there is no gap or splice between the two components.

That may be, although the issue I remember being mentioned had to do with the gases messing with the bullet at the muzzle of the suppressor. But I really have no facts on this, just guessing.

QUOTE
As for the ammo, I would imagine that the people who designed the Barett 121 were thinking along the lines of .50 BMG round firing Sniper Rifles [...]

I'm willing to bet that the people who designed the Barrett 121 had no idea about what .50 BMG means or how the cartridge compares to other cartridges generally found in sniper rifles, anti-material rifles or HMGs. It is far more likely that it was given "Special Ammunition" because "OMG look at that it's huge I mean it's like so big way cool".

If you're gonna keep the Barrett 121 firing Special Ammunition and doing more damage than other Sniper Rifles because it fires .50BMG, then you might as well go all the way and introduce calibers into your games... smile.gif
The Jake
QUOTE (toturi)
Can the Barret Model 121 load any other ammo other than its special ammo?
Would you allow it?

Can it load a capsule round? or an AV or fletchette round? I was thinking of allowing customised ammo for the Barret but that ammunition would have to be specially made for the PC (ammo type avail/normal ammo avail x Barret ammo avail) or he would have to do it himself. What do you think?

No, no and NO.

This is clearly spelled out in the book. WHY there is even a THREAD on this is beyond me.

I wouldn't allow any customisation of this ammo unless it was a plot device. This weapon is already horrendously broken it doesn't need to be screwed with further.

- J.
Austere Emancipator
The spell Increased Reflexes +3 is broken, it's clearly stated in the book how it works, and still people discuss it in a thread here every now and then. Some might say called shots are broken, the books clearly state how they work, and they cause loads of discussions. The AVS is obviously broken, and the books are very explicit about how it works, yet people have discussed it in innumerable threads.

What is it about the Barrett 121 and the ammunition for it that makes it indiscussible? Especially when doing some of the things that have been discussed in this particular thread make the gun (and the game in general) more sensible?
BitBasher
QUOTE
What is it about the Barrett 121 and the ammunition for it that makes it indiscussible? Especially when doing some of the things that have been discussed in this particular thread make the gun (and the game in general) more sensible?
Because unlike your other examples the way the Barrett is written in the book is quite reasonable.
northern lights
it's because the book states that it fires only it's own ammo. so you can't buy other types of ammo on the street. but as we should all know, runners can't sate themselves on street gear. face it someone made one type of ammo for the barret. someone can make other types of ammo for the barret. it is all a matter of finding a qualified individual to do it. now granted there's probably 5 of those the world over, but it could be done and thus discussed.
Luke Hardison
I personally wouldn't see a problem with letting someone make their own rounds for the 121, or hiring them out, with a few stipulations.

1) They will be difficult to obtain (high TN for the creation, high avaliability for the supplies, on par with barret's availability +2 or something)

2) The new rounds will not be more effective than the current rounds. They may add extra effects (capsule rounds) or be more situational (gel rounds), but I wouldn't want anything more deadly coming out of the barrel of that particular weapon.

3) By our house rules, the Barret rounds are avaliable in regular (in book) and AV (for double the cost and +2 avail.)
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Because unlike your other examples the way the Barrett is written in the book is quite reasonable.

Well, no, it isn't. It's the only "Special Ammunition" weapon in the game (that I know of), and for no reason. It's supposed to be a long range sniper rifle, but it's internally suppressed. It does incredible amounts of damage, far too much to be considered a common anti-personnel weapon, yet it is totally useless against armored vehicles since it cannot fire AV ammunition. And as an added bonus it has pre-emptive recoil. And for all it's heavy-caliber-1337ness, it has the exact same ranges as smaller (standard) caliber Sniper Rifles, and it penetrates soft targets no better than them, yet it somehow manages to cause a larger wound -- even though it's supposed to pack APDS ammunition, which ought to do a smaller wound. Etc. It is not reasonable.

QUOTE (northern lights)
face it someone made one type of ammo for the barret. someone can make other types of ammo for the barret.

Yep. And that someone is most likely every large ammunition manufacturer in the world, or whichever ammunition manufacturers Barrett's parent corp happens to own (I'm guessing Ares...) -- depending on whether you consider the Barrett 121 to fire a common large cartridge, or a cartridge designed for it only.

I can't think of a single weapon that is a standard issue sniper or assault rifle, or any type of machine gun, in any army in the world today that can only fire one type of ammunition. If something like the Steyr IWS 2000 ever became standard issue in a major army, it would instantly find itself firing a multitude of different ammo types.

QUOTE (Luke Hardison)
By our house rules, the Barret rounds are avaliable in regular (in book) and AV (for double the cost and +2 avail.)

That at least makes sense. Then the Barrett can be used for what it's meant for.

If you don't wish to allow any other types of ammunition for the Barrett 121, at least give it AV. If it makes you feel any better, you can always make Barrett standard ammunition AV, double (or triple, or quadruple) the cost and add +2 (or more) to the availability.
The Jake
The weapon does just enough damage as it is. If a player wants to do any more, then they can start using heavy weapons or gunnery.

I can appreciate someone wanting to use stun rounds or gel rounds for increased functionality as opposed to increased damage. I would weight that up as the issue arises, but if someone were to ask me for a blanket answer it would be no.

That said, at some point preservation of game balance must prevail. Otherwise we may as well allow players to start creating man portable rail guns and nukes, ala. Syndicate Wars.

- J.
Aramus
Maybe the '121 just use is own ammo 'cause the company wanted to make it more hard to use it to "every normal citizen of the world that play in the shadow". With special ammo, you have to put some more nuyen and time, something that not everybody can have ...

If the Barret 121 use special ammo it's because there a good reason, no ?
Austere Emancipator
There's no small arm that's closer to Heavy Weaponry than the Barrett. And you don't think there's anything wrong with the biggest damn rifle in the game being far less (ie half as) useful against vehicles than the teeny-weeny RA SM-3s etc?

QUOTE (The Jake)
I can appreciate someone wanting to use stun rounds or gel rounds for increased functionality as opposed to increased damage.

Giving the Barrett 121 AV ammunition is increased functionality: It makes the Barrett useful against vehicles. It doesn't make it do any more damage against personnel which is what you dread, apparently.

QUOTE
That said, at some point preservation of game balance must prevail. Otherwise we may as well allow players to start creating man portable rail guns and nukes, ala. Syndicate Wars.

If the guns are balanced IRL, and you simulate like you do IRL, they will be balanced in the game. Certainly not all things can be taken into account in a game, but with the Barrett you can, mostly. It's fricken huge, so I give penalties for firing it unsupported (that doesn't have to mean from a Bipod, just sufficient support). It has punishing recoil (although recoil affecting the first shot is still bullshit). It's extremely hard to get, getting most ammunition for it is (slightly) harder to get, and neither is exactly cheap. And if you get all this, you can then engage and destroy APCs and LAVs.

Game balance should be kept in mind, that's true, but just because the players can manage to do something that just about any American can do right now (and at paltry costs compared to doing it in SR) doesn't make the game horribly imbalanced. The RL Barretts aren't man-portable rail guns, so neither will the SR Barretts be as long as I'm GMing.

QUOTE (Aramus)
If the Barret 121 use special ammo it's because there a good reason, no ?

If you assume that all rules in SR ranged combat and the way all the guns are have good reasons, then yes. However, when you look at AVSs and Shotguns in general, it's hard to believe that the designers had any good reasons, unless you consider "OMG it's like so cool" a good reason.

QUOTE
Maybe the '121 just use is own ammo 'cause the company wanted to make it more hard to use it to "every normal citizen of the world that play in the shadow".

The Barrett 121 ain't a Shadowrunning gun. It's (supposedly) the standard issue sniper rifle of the CAS, and certainly in use with several law enforcement agencies and militaries world wide. The company would be screwing itself over if they intentionally made it harder for people to buy the gun, let alone if they intentionally made the gun useless for many applications that it would be otherwise ideal for (AV ammo, again). They're supposed to make a profit. Gun manufacturers in general are not against people getting guns.
toturi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

The Barrett 121 ain't a Shadowrunning gun. It's (supposedly) the standard issue sniper rifle of the CAS, and certainly in use with several law enforcement agencies and militaries world wide.

Negative on that. You are thinking of the Walther WA-2000.
Austere Emancipator
Oops, you're right, sorry (The Walther MA-2100 is the CAS standard issue sniper rifle -- the RL weapon WA-2000 is not standard issue in any army). In that case, there will only be perhaps ten thousand in use by militaries in North America plus another ten thousand in other militaries around the world, a few thousand in law enforcement agencies, and maybe extra fifteen-twenty thousand by corp armed forces.

In any case, it's going to be a common weapon, because there apparently aren't any other extra large caliber sniper rifles in the world. And just a few thousand weapons in active use is quite enough to call for the design of a huge variety of loadings. Designing and manufacturing ammunition is, after all, pretty damn cheap, compared to many other items that are supposed to be more common in the 2060s (Tactical Computers, M-B-W-2, Wired-3, Articulated Cyberarms, DamComp 6-9, SynapticAccel, Weapon Foci, etc).
Aramus
Just a simple question about the Barret, do you think that a Barret-121 can be put into a violoncel (cello) case ?
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I seem to remember from an earlier thread somewhere that it causes some instability at the muzzle -- a weapon like the Barrett wouldn't have a built-in suppressor. Either way, the suppressor can be ignored.

Actually, because of the added mass to the end of the barrel, suppressors tend to increase the accuracy of a given host weapon by partially neutralizing harmonic vibration. More information on that here and here.

QUOTE (Aramus)
Just a simple question about the Barret, do you think that a Barret-121 can be put into a violoncel (cello) case?

I would say no. Doing a little Googling, I found that a Duralite Claasic Cello Case has an internal length (with end pin) of 51.5 inches (4.29 feet, 1.3 meters).

To compare the 121 to a real Barrett rifle, the M82A1 is 57" long without a suppressor. It wouldn't fit. But considering that the 121 is supposed to be a bullpup autoloader (according to its stats and picture), it might be possible to shave 4 or 5 inches off of the OAL, which would still leave us a bit too long (52-53"). Attaching a BR BTX8 suppressor would add another 7.44 inches (189mm) to that (for a 59.44-60.44" OAL).

There's alway a bass case. But I'm sure that if your character was planning on hauling a rifle like this in a cello case, he certainly could customize the rifle or the case or both to fit. Or hell, you could just say that it does fit. Up to you.
Aramus
Thanks Ray !
Crusher Bob
You can probably fit the disassembled rifle into a case pretty easily as well, since removing the barrel will give you plnty of extra inches to work with.
Raygun
Assuming that the barrel can easily be removed from the receiver and that there's enough space in the neck area of the case to accomodate both the receiver and the barrel separately. A suppressor for this kind of rifle is also going to be around 3"x20" in size (or slightly smaller), so there's really a lot you'd have to stuff into that case.

About suppressors for rifles like these... There's really no way that you can contain all of the muzzle blast from a round like the .50 BMG without attaching a device that's much bigger than the rifle itself and is totally impractical for field use. Suppressors for .50 BMG rifles are generally intended to reduce the signature of the rifle to that of a smaller rifle, reducing the visual signature of dust and debris kicked up during a shot, reducing the amount of smoke cast into the atmoshpere, your spotter doesn't get a face full of muzzle blast, etc... The amount of sound reduction generally brings the report down to the level of an average unsuppressed hunting rifle, like a .308. But there are some .50 BMG suppressors that can bring the report down below the threshold of pain (140dB). Even then, it will still sound like a rifle, but what you're doing is reducing the range at which it can be heard. You're also allowing your operators to work without the need for hearing protection. These suppressors also reduce recoil to levels comparable with common muzzle brakes.

Really, you can chalk up Hatchetman's "further away than a few meters, I've heard no gun noise whatsoever" line as total and complete horseshit. There would still be plenty of muzzle flash, you'd easily hear the bullet whizzing downrange supersonic, and you'd hear the bolt clacking back and forth.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Raygun)
[...] you'd easily hear the bullet whizzing downrange supersonic [...]

Humorous understatement, eh? biggrin.gif Having done demolitions training 300 meters away, on the other side of a forest hill, from a 12.7x108mm AAMG, I can testify that it's certainly more than a whizz. wink.gif

I still remember that horrible ripping sound of the bullets glancing the waves...
Raygun
Oh yeah. That is definitely an understatement. The biggest bullet I've been near while it was in flight was a 220 grain from a .300 Weatherby, and "whizzing" really doesn't even do that justice. I'm sure it's pretty hard to mistake the sound of a bullet at least three times that mass flying past you. I wish I had an example if that sound to post here. It's frighteningly distinctive. Once you recognize it, you don't really want to hear it again unless it's heading away from you.
toturi
You should try a 30mm cannon round... now that will raise the hairs on your neck...
Austere Emancipator
Or a 155mm arty round flying 10km overhead...
Cray74
155mm cannons can and have been silenced. Or suppressed anyway.

Some neighbors complained and the German Army obliged them with a silencer for testing a howitzer:

http://www2.ci-n.com/~jcampbel/images/howi...er-silencer.jpg

Maybe ya'll have seen that before. If not, enjoy. I figure it demonstrates that suppression knows no limits if you're willing to accept gizmos that look ridiculous on the end of your weapon's barrel.
Austere Emancipator
That's still only partial suppression. The sound from the M109 itself (or, more accurately, from the M185 or M284 cannon) might not be as insanely loud, but it's still likely to be heard more than a few meters away... 150dB? 160dB?

The shell itself is probably not slowed down at all, it might in fact be speeded up slightly, so the spine-chilling *RIP* is still there. Not horribly loud to us humans down here, but certainly can be heard and distinguished.

Still, that picture can never be linked too often. smile.gif
Fresno Bob
That silencer looks like a camo wang...
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That's still only partial suppression. The sound from the M109 itself (or, more accurately, from the M185 or M284 cannon) might not be as insanely loud, but it's still likely to be heard more than a few meters away... 150dB? 160dB?

At least. A projectile that big is going to make a lot of noise just flying. Silencer: History and Performance, Vol. 1 says that a "122mm Howitzer" makes 183dB of noise. That's about 35dB away from a pressure wave that can kill you mechanically. No projectile necessary. I can't guess as to how effective that howitzer suppressor is. But it looks like it probably works pretty darn well.
GoldenAri
Has anyone thought that maybe it's sub-sonic ammo with a terminal guidance system that fires off a rocket charge right before impact to give it it's 14D punch?
When they say special ammunition you've got to start thinking unconventionally. If it was conventional munitions then it would be interchangable (or at least could be modified to be).
As far as Hatchet's comment, maybe he was refering to the rifle itself. He doesn't say he heard nothing, just that he heard no gun noise. An electic firing system and an incredible silencer at several meters would do that I think.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
Has anyone thought that maybe it's sub-sonic ammo with a terminal guidance system that fires off a rocket charge right before impact to give it it's 14D punch?

Well, I certainly haven't. Probably because I do not consider something as small as a Barrett bullet to be an efficient platform for a guided projectile with rock boosters.

If it was indeed sub-sonic, it would take ~3 seconds, or a full SR Combat Turn, for the bullet to reach the maximum range of the Barrett (1km). That's assuming the bullet isn't slowed down at all after it has left the barrel, which isn't going to happen. This would make for very interesting sniping.

QUOTE
An electic firing system and an incredible silencer at several meters would do that I think.

Yes, incredible being the central word. smile.gif
GoldenAri
QUOTE
Yes, incredible being the central word.

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that choice of words biggrin.gif
QUOTE
If it was indeed sub-sonic, it would take ~3 seconds, or a full SR Combat Turn, for the bullet to reach the maximum range of the Barrett (1km). That's assuming the bullet isn't slowed down at all after it has left the barrel, which isn't going to happen. This would make for very interesting sniping.

Right, which is why the bullets have onboard guindence, nanofins, maybe a impeller engine of some sort.
The booster charge doesn't have to be very big just controlled properly.

Like I said, you've got to think exotic. Though I would think the bullets would cost a lot more then.
Diesel
I think that the writers really hadn't shot much or read much when they wrote the books. Or there was some nice crack going around the office.
GoldenAri
I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just trying to rationalize what we've got instead of point out just how unrealistic it is.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Voorhees)
That silencer looks like a camo wang...

Exactly what my friend Sahandrian thought.
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