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I feel like this is a silly series of questions, but...

I was looking over the rules for purchasing weapons for vehicles. I seemed to recall it cost 3x the weapons cost + cost of firmpoint/hardpoint. While I was trying to answer the question I'm going to ask later, I realized I can't find this rule any more. Where does it say you triple the cost? Is this a second edition thing I'm holding over? Do we now only buy the weapon at normal cost + cost of firm/hardpoint?

Next question... What accessories can and can you not put on a vehicle mounted weapon? Can I install gyromounts? Shock pads? Do I triple the cost for those too? Does the limit on how many things I can install still stand (it seems like if this gun is built into the vehicle, I now have a lot more space to play with).

How do people normally deal with installing two weapons? Can you fire them at the same time? If so, do you use the two hands rules from CC? (add the recoil and all that, and off hand penalty?)

Just a random side question, has anyone ever installed a melee weapon on a vehicle? So many times I've wanted to have a katana put on the front of my motorcycle or a boot knife firmpointed onto my semi. They don't say I can't : )
Can't help ya on the other ones but...


nezumi Posted on Dec 23 2003, 01:31 PM

How do people normally deal with installing two weapons? Can you fire them at the same time? If so, do you use the two hands rules from CC? (add the recoil and all that, and off hand penalty?)

I assume you mean to mount them in the same spot. I would imagine that you could fire them at the same time and the recoil from one applies to the other.
The cost for vehicle weapons is the normal weapon cost + a weapon modification kit + whatever type of mount you're putting it in. According to Rigger 3, at least.

In general, you can't put modifications on vehicle mounted weapons (except for certain modifications, like smartlinks) after-market. You can, I believe, buy a weapon with an integral feature and install it. You can get special vehicle only stuff (like vehicle gyro-stabilization) which will get you some of the same features.

I don't think there are rules for that, but I'd raise the damage level of an appropriate type of crash test by one wink.gif
If you can put smartlinks on rigged weapons what happens to the "no smartlinks and image enhancements" rule?

I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops here. Just curious.
I thought it is no smartlink/image enhance for sensor enhanced gunnery? What is the mixed up here?
Thats what we're trying to figure out.

toturi Posted on Dec 23 2003, 03:22 PM
  I thought it is no smartlink/image enhance for sensor enhanced gunnery? 

Are saying that's the rule or asking?
Alright alright, I broke down and read through rigger 3. I thought it would be in the main manual, but no. Silly me, huh?

What it says is (rigger 3, p 136)
"Any accessories, features or properties that are part of the weapon are also available when it is mounted as a vehicle weapon. However, external weapon accessories that are not part of the weapon cannot be fitted onto the converted weapon, with the exception of the smartgun system"

So, the AK-98 with the underbarrel grenade launcher will keep said grenade launcher. However, the AK-97 that's installed would take up 2 firmpoints if you wanted a grenade launcher as well (AK takes one, the launcher takes the second).

The HK-227 gets 3 points of rc because of the integral gas vent II and folding stock, however the AK-97 smg/carbine can never get this bonus (plus the HK-227 has a laser sight, ooh... another -1 to TNs)

I'll give you, it's better than the 2nd edition rules, when I installed tripods on my mounted weapons. But am I the only one who still thinks that disallowing your installing a gas vent on a mounted weapon is just a wee tad silly?

(FYI, it doesn't mention imaging things anywhere I can see. Several of the rifles do come with scopes, so I guess they're allowed : P Maybe they attach the scope to one of your car's cameras?)
I may be crazy, but I never bother with recoil for small arms mounted on vehicles or even heavy weapons that I consider reasonalbe. That's the point to mounting them, right? Having fired a .50 cal from the top of a HMMWV, I must say that there is no appreciable recoil. But, if you try to mount the same weapon on a jeep and play Rat Patrol, the recoil will knock the jeep over.
Unfortunately, the recoil rules are very abstract so there's no built in way to differentiate between an Ares MP recoil and a Stoner-Ares M107 recoil.
Or between Ares Crusader recoil and Ares MP wink.gif

So, basically if a gun comes w/ something you can use it but you couldn't buy a weapon, slap a SL and some gas vent into it and mount it? That does seem strange. I don't have R3, though.

So, what about the smartlink thing? Why do you think you could use it on a mounted weapon w/ image enhancement? I personaly think that rule makes no sense but is there for game balance. Especially if the image enhance is from a piece of cyberware and/or you have a rangefinder. But thats just my thought, not a house rule or anything.
You can install smartlinks, but they have to be internal. I don't have any problem with that. In theory, you should get the SLII rangefinder option for free, since even a sensor 0 vehicle has a rangefinder. For anything but pintle mounted weapons, it makes sense not to allow laser sights, imaging scopes etc. since that would be covered under the sensors package of the vehicle. But the reverse question arises, since sensors of 1+ allow you to zoom, should all weapons on that vehicle act as though they have a scope of that level?

Bearclaw, stop being so darn realistic ; P Could we use the strength recoil rules somewhere? If I have an SMG mounted on a tank, it shouldn't suffer any recoil. So how much strength does a tank 'have'? 20? 40? (I guess this kind of also relates to what happens if you mount a melee weapon on your vehicle. Resist 40L damage from boot knife. Okay, now resist 30D from front of semi knife is attached to.)
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
I may be crazy, but I never bother with recoil for small arms mounted on vehicles or even heavy weapons that I consider reasonalbe. That's the point to mounting them, right? Having fired a .50 cal from the top of a HMMWV, I must say that there is no appreciable recoil.

I've never fired a vehicle-mounted weapon, though I have fired a 12.7x108 AAMG on a tripod mount, so I'm not saying that it should work in any specific way ruleswise... But I think the system considers anything that affects the accuracy of a weapon when firing several shots "Recoil". So while the M2HB might not actually push back at all, and perhaps not up much either, it's accuracy on the shots 8-10 is probably worse than shots 1-3 when firing cyclically.

The difference might not be as large IRL as it is in SR, but the ranged combat rules not giving realistic results shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone... Stoner-Ares M107 on a Ring mount (2060s equivalent of M2HB on a HMMWV) only causes a +2 Recoil modifier on FA, though. (10 - 6 - 3) x 2.

As for what equipment is allowed... I just use common sense. Gas vents I definitely allow, although those aren't as über IMG as they are in canon. Smartlinks are fine, as long as there is a gunner with his hands on the gun (the Vehicle Smartlink Integration is different). A scope is fine, again as long as someone actually looks through the scope -- though a scope isn't very useful when firing a weapon from a moving vehicle... Shock Pads shouldn't exist in the first place, nor should Forearm Grips (and they'd be out for vehicle mounting anyway). Gyro-stabilization won't work, except the Vehicle Mount-kind, since all other gyro-stab systems are on/in the wielder of the gun.
This is one of those topics that should have been fixed (or just clarified) for the R3 reprint. My general take is that gas-vents and smartlinks would work as normal. As for everything else, if its fired from a remote location, it dosent work. No imaging systems, no target designators, no addational recoil comp. However if its fired by joe sitting with a pintol mount, everything would work as-per-normal. Cept mabey extra recoil. I dont see shock pads working in that situaion.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Lindt)
I dont see shock pads working in that situaion.

If this is a HMG-type weapon, then I can see why (since for a weapon without a stock, they're supposed to be "hip pads"). However, with any weapon that does have a stock (MMGs and anything smaller), the stock would probably be used when the weapon is fired either from a Pintle or Ring mount.

But getting rid of Shock Pads altogether is a far better solution to this than making the distinction to the rules only to make the vehicle mounted weapons rules more sensible. After all, as long as you give Recoil Comp for Shock Pads, you can't possible be making a lot of sense. nyahnyah.gif
I personally divide the actual range by the zoom and then match that up to the distance on the range charts (though the weapon still only works out to its maximum unmodified range). Thus with 250X zoom something at 500 meters would be Short (2 meters for purposes of calculation) for everything.
Rough, but it works.

Austere Emancipator
And, with that 250x zoom, anything closer than 250 meters can't be shot at or effectively spotted (unless it is very small), right? Of course if this is any form of electronic magnification or vehicle sensors, you can just drop the zoom to some sane figure, but having an optical 250x-only magnification on a weapon scope would really suck.
Nope, it's just fine unless you can show me something that says that you can't reduce the amount of zoom actually being used.


Edit: you bastard, you edited to not overlook my point wink.gif
Austere Emancipator
And I did it before you got your post finished. I'm that good. nyahnyah.gif
Don't forget to multiply the target's movement speed by 250 as well nyahnyah.gif

I use the same system (divide range by magnification), I give scopes & cyber image mag the same zoom as a vehicle sensor of the same rating (ie 50x rating), but allow them to be purchased at greater ratings than 3.
Why would I do that? What good are vehicle sensors if they can't track?
I'd give penalties for the in-eye stuff, but I really don't think a Rating 5 sensor suite should be crippled tracking a target.

Sorry, I ment for sniper sights, not vehicle sights. Slightly off topic.
Which brings a question... can you Smartlink a scope to change its magnification via DNI? That'd make using a scope a lot friendlier...

I'd say so, yes.
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