So, I have looked at the Runner's Companion in my FLGS, and it looked like a bunch of optional rules variants.

If I may ask you guys here, give me a good reason to buy it, as it looks interesting, but there are a bunch of other Core rulebooks, like Arsenal, out there, and I have a limited budget to buy books on, so I want to know if I should hold out until I get the other Core books.

For me, I'd get Arsenal over Runners Companion.

Both have something for everyone, but Arsenal has more of it, and it applies to EVERYONE! From Mages to Street Samis, it's the bomb (Literally, there's bombs in there.).

Then again, I've always been a gear-head, and love gear books. And my group are starting to really get into the vehicle and weapon modification rules. (We just saw the Panzercycle in "Mercenaries 2", and now are thinking of starting a street gang that uses just those.).

Runner's Companion are great for groups that want to expand on their characters in great amounts of ways.

If your group is heavy into RPG elements, then Runner's Companion would probably suit you better.

Buy for your group, it's the best way.

Depends on what you're looking for in your game I guess. The full list of new qualities (negative and positive) are awesome, some good stuff that I'd like to base characters on. If you feel like having more options as a player in building a different character, then I'd go for this. If you want to have the extended lifestyles that are presented (which I always loved), if you want to explore AIs free spirits or other strange character concepts, yeah get it. If you want to do a karma based character creation, go for it. Yes, its mostly options for the game, but depending on what options you think are missing from the big black book you should determine which Core supplement to get. Of course if you're the Gm you could always get this to bolster what you let your players take, and make them buy the other books to bring to the table if they want all the toys

Are the Core Rulebooks the BBB, Augmentation, Street Magic, Unwired, Arsenal, and Runner's Companion? If I'm missing any, tell me.

I already have the BBB and Street Magic, and I have a Technomancer, a Street Samurai, and "Sam Fisher" Sneak type.

For my group, which of these books would be the best for them?

I'll second this.

Runner's Companion has a bunch of kewl stuff, but it not critical. Arsenal, on the other hand, helps fill in some rather massive, gapping holes in the BBB's selection of gear.

My 2 , of course.
-paws

Definitely Arsenal. They all benefit greatly, especially with all the brand new Spy Gear for your Sam Fisher.

And vehicles. Lots of vehicles.

Runners better love their vehicles, as it beats WALKING through the Sprawl all the time!!!

That, and it helps a GM when the players go, "What can we hotwire... NOW!" and they not groan when it's YET ANOTHER Ford AmeriCar or Mercury Comet. (Or, my personal favourite, the Lincoln Sprawlcar!).

Do they have night-vision goggles that light up in the dark?

Those are in the core rules. And if you really want them to light up (I know you're joking), that's a function of the fluff modifications to worn gear that are pretty much free.

After getting Arsenal, what other book should I get then? (I only have enough for 2 books, including Arsenal).

Since you only have the core rules and Street Magic, I'd go with Arsenal and Augmentation as they will apply to every character in your game at one point or another. After that, I'd get Unwired since you have a Technomancer (or just make him buy it -- cheap bastard) followed by Runner's Companion.

And after I get those, I would own all the Core Rulebooks, then?

Pretty much.

Any player of a TM should buy Unwired. So you won´t need to.

Arsenal is definitly the first. Street Magic would be my second, but you already have that.

Toss-up: Aug or RC? I´d go for Augmentation. RC is interesting, but chrome is king.

I only bought Unwired today, so i can't say much about that (except that at first glance, it seems to be absolutely awesome- the stuff i read so far sounds great and for the first time in SR4 actually makes me want to play a technomancer, just because of the fluff).

As far as the other books are concerned, i'd get Arsenal first, then Augmentation, then RC.

I personally prefer Augmentation over RC and both over Arsenal (even though i love the whole chemistry section), but i'd still recommend picking them up in this order, for a simple reason :

Implementation of the material.
When you buy them in this order, you can always bring up all the shiny new options imediately.

The stuff in Arsenal can always be bought by your PCs.
Getting a new gun or modding an older one can be done anytime.
So get this first.
Everybody in the group will find something, too.
Guns for the same, spytoys for Sam Fisher, drones for the TM.

The stuff in Augmentation is a bit more expensive, it's great to bring up when your PCs are a bit more advanced and can afford all these implants.
It will also be of lesser interest to the TM.
Probably you should pick up Unwired or make the other player do this.

The stuff in RC will make your group want to stat out new characters, plain and simple.
It is ideal to start a new campaign, or a sideplot tied into the regular one with different characters.

Why? Is it a bad book?

Your TM player can buy it, so your limited budget can go elsewhere, until you can afford completion of the core set. It is not the obligation of a GM to bring all required books, and the player in question will love the book to death.

I haven't finished Unwired yet either, so I can't comment beyond this: If you're playing a new otaku, you need this book.

I'd definitely go for Arsenal over Runner's Companion. Arsenal gives you a lot of gear, vehicles, and options, but remains balanced against every other book. RC is blatantly unbalanced, even against itself (Metavariants, anyone?), gives a lot of overpowering options, and basically revels in its ability to destroy a game with unpalatable character concepts. Arsenal, hands down.

Since this trollish statement merrily tramps with jackboots on the feelings of players that enjoy and are confident in their ability to use the character concepts and options that RC provides, I feel free to retort that when a caterpillar metamorphoses into a butterfly, the coward and the fool call it death, the brave and the wise call it life. Such is the case when a game evolves into, or is birthed as, an high-powered one.

On a less annoyed wavelength, I would instead reply that Arsenal offers little more but new gear and vehicles, stuff many kinds of not-gear-oriented characters and players may find of limited use (how many slightly different types of guns or vehicles does one player really need if one is not a gun/car bunny ???), whileas RC is chock-full of tools (the character role guidelines, the runner survival tips, the expanded lifestyle rules, the new Qualities) that pretty much all kinds of characters may easily find quite useful. Therefore, IMO, RC, hands down.

You've hit smack dab on the head. RC jacks up the power level of all SR4 games, unless the GM is willing to disallow most of the book. What good are options no sane GM is going to use? Unless you really think having a six-armed centaur with pixie wings will add to your game; well, it is *your* game, you can do what you like.


Arsenal has a lot of tools and gear, which everyone can use, and can be obtained in game. If you want to dump one vehicle, it doesn't hurt to know the stats of the next vehicle you steal. Most of the "tools" in RC are only useful at chargen; so unless you plan on dumping your old characters and starting fresh, most of the book won't be useful to you. The fluff is kinda nice, I'll give you that; but the expanded lifestyle rules just add bookkeeping, unless you're really into roleplaying out a character's home life.

All core rulebooks do that.
I admit that it's most prevalent in RC, though.



First of all, i'm not that insane.
Second, why is being a six-armed centaur particularly overpowered?

It can be, but only if you happen to have a delta-grade full body replacement with maxed-out armor for all 10 limbs at hand.
That's as insane as it is unlikely.

If you don't transform your centaur into Binky, the equine hovertank, that critter is hardly overpowered.

It is oversized for any normal, sprawl-centered campaign, but out in the open countryside, for example in a mercenary campaign, i see no problems with allowing a centaur in the group.

That's the problem with the more exotic character options, of course, they won't fit into any campaign unless you play really pink mohawk style (which i prefer, but tastes differ on that matter, of course).

But : the really wacky options make up one and a half chapter at best.


I fully agree on the notion that the book is next to useles in a campaign that has already begun, though.

I would say purchase Runners Companion first, and then Arsenal & Augmentation.

Every one of my characters now uses something from Runners Companion, not all use something from the other books. The options in Companion are the least balanced (some overpowering, many underpowered) out of any Core rulebook, but many are quite worthwhile, especially most of SURGE & Advanced Lifestyles.

I really like it, but I'd buy Arsenal and maybe even Augmentation before it. Street Magic after all those, because it's rather specialized.

*points at Rasuminchin's explanation* Seconded. The decision between Augmentation and Arsenal would practically be a coin toss for me though.

I actually found it surprising that Augmentation didn't really pump up the power curve very much. Oh, sure, suddenly a lot of people sprouted Attention Co-processors and CED's for their skillwire sets, but overall it wasn't too bad. There weren't as many game-breaking options.


It's not overpowered, it's just plain silly. Unless you seriously munch it out, of course. Which RC helps with.


The more exotic options aren't the only problem. It's been well established that 750 karma is too much under karmagen; add this to the fact that you don't need to pay for a race, and things can get very silly rather quickly. Granted, you can fix the first one rather easily, but the second causes problems. Ever notice that a Wendigo can spend up to 575 karma on attributes, if it felt like it?

I prefer Arsenal and Augmentation with whoever wants to be Nancy Boy-mage buying Street Magic. But that's my RP preference showing so I'd have to say, generally speaking you should buy Arsenal and Street Magic, it covers the most ground for a two book purchase. I haven't read RC yet but it certainly sounds like an interesting set of expanded rules which could be fun if managed well but are certainly not vital to getting a game off the ground.

I personally love Augmentation but jesus... look at my icon, it's obvious where my interests are Chroming out my characters or NPC's is clearly one of my favorite past times and Aug has all the juicy bits you need for that.

I handwave like a madman through Matrix stuff (none of my players want to play a TM or hacker... yet) so Unwired is way down on my buy list right now. I suspect that it's like Street Magic in that it's pretty damn vital for anyone wanting to play a specialist in that field.

Yes, but I'd reckon under that provision that Street Magic and Augmentation are therefore somewhat more vital than Arsenal and Unwired, since in my experience a game where at least a couple of Awakened or heavily-Augmented characters, often definitely more, do not show up is exceedingly rare, whereas hackers, TMs, gun-bunnies, and riggers are nowhere so popular.

Agreed.
It's my favourite core book, even though i mostly play unaugmented mages and like it that way.
Says a lot about the quality, i think.




With the exception of additional cyberlimb armor (the only worthwile exploit of six arms), Shiva Arms are a very good way to burn extreme amounts of BP or karma for nothing.
Ever split a DP six ways?
I doubt it was worth having paid 30 BP SURGE points for the arms and another 25 for off-hand training with each arm.

In fact, among the qualities, the majority are either merely style, so-and-so or downright crippling.

But yes, RC has pretty powerful options.
Erased and Fomori imediately come to mind.



Depends.
It certainly is a more problematic way of chargen, making the system more dependent on group consensus, which is generally a sign that it doesn't work 100% out of the box.
I don't have problems with it, though.
It works, if the group agrees that everybody blows about the same (and a very high) amount of points on fluff.
Under these auspices, the fact that races don't cost squat isn't a problem either.
You have headroom to balance this out again.

If everybody wants to munch out completely, it's fine, too.

However, this is not an option i would consider as default mode (there's a good reason why it's optional), as it has even more problems to level out differing pereferences than the 400BP system.

If i apply it to a 400BP character i have played a bit to get a feel for that role, it works perfectly, producing very believable, well-rounded and interesting characters.

This way, i get the fun of 400BP gen (the challenge of coming up with a viable build under tight limitations) as well as that of 750karma gen (being able to build the character as i have come to see it, without having to worry about compromising either the fluff or efficiency).

If you want to play a high-power campaign, it makes it a lot easier to employ some of the more exotic options as well.
In that case, i don't expect the weaker options to come up and don't care about them anyway.
Instead, i'll enjoy testing the limits of the system.

If there is no consensus on the direction of the game, of course, catastrophy will ensue.

But under better circumstances, i wouldn't want to miss karmagen.



I didn't.
Amazing, though, how math can screw things up.

But :
A wendigo costs 200 BP under karmagen, as it isn't a race, but a quality.
Given that one takes the maximum of 70 karma for negative qualities, this would leave us with 45 points for anything but attributes.

I predict a nearby character death.

Which shows the inherent instability of karmagen.

It's like one of these vehicles that wouldn't be able to operate without fly-by-wire or ESP.
Allows amazing feats of design and engineering otherwise deemed impossible, but if things go bad, it just tilts over and crashes.

It's still munchable. Try six SMG's firing at full-auto wide bursts. That's impossible to dodge. What's more, you can allocate a small dice pool to the first four attacks, and put a majority of your pool into the later attacks, when the opponent has run down his defense pool.

Not to mention the silliness that is firing 3 bows at once, or using 3 combat axes.

Others have demonstrated that 750 karma characters are significantly more powerful than 400 BP characters. This problem can be fixed readily, though; you just reduce the karma amount. It'll take some tweaking to dial it in properly, but I'm sure people can find an equivalent point.

If you want to run a high-power campaign, just up the BP's and raise the caps. You don't need most of these portions in order to do that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

Also impossible to do.
You can't fire two weapons in full auto, how should it become legal with 6?



Yes, this would work.
Would it work better than the other things you can do with 55 points of positive qualities?
You decide.
But i can see where this is going.



I wonder how readying all these bows at once would work...but readying them before combat, on the other hand...

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.
Binky might receive an upgrade someday soon.



No use denying that.



Yes, but one should keep in mind that both systems have inherently different implications.
BP favours the specialist, karma the generalist.
Furthermore, both have differing impact on the attractivenes of a wide range of options, from skill specializations and CFs to focus bonding.



Of course, but a high-power BP campaign will most likely result in absurd DPs, while high-power karmagen will result in characters that come closer to what very experienced characters should look like under a more realist point of view.
Not so much monomaniac specialists as people who have a whole lot of extremely versatile training.

As i said, they produce different characters and have different exploits.

It's good to have both options available; it's also good to have people here who are working on balancing the karmagen system.



You're welcome.

I'll jump in with a vote that your TM will thank me for later: get Augmentation (for the sammy) and Unwired! If a significant part of your game takes place in the matrix, you do not want to miss out on this book. Heck, even for characters who are not primarily matrix-based (and GM's who need to know how their world works) there's a goldmine of info in that book. Arsenal is ok, gives some variety, but nothing you can't miss out on for a few months more while you save more cash. Unwired has the goods for technomancers (although if you want to keep his powers within mortal bounds I wouldn't use all the optional rules), and some great ways to occupy and challenge your matrix-active pc's (all of them, since in 2070 everyone is connected).

Then again, I'm on my fourth SR4 character, and they were all either hackers or technomancers, so I may be biased.

Runner's Companion is worth purchasing but it should be the last purchase of the core books. Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal and Unwired are all highly recommended though my group got along fine with just the BBB for quite awhile.

I bought them in the order they came out (with the exception of Unwired, which is currently being held for me at my LGS) and have been very happy with that order.

I'd suggest (in agreement with previous posters), since you already have Street Magic anyway and your campaign is already going, go Arsenal > Augmentation > Unwired > RC as you can afford them.

Arsenal has your must-have equipment everyone will benefit from, Augmentation has your cyberware (everyone but most mages will benefit) but also advanced MEDICAL RULES (everyone benefits). You'll want those first.

Runner's Companion is best for new characters, and only half as useful for a campaign already in motion (less, if you don't plan on infecting any players with HMHVV anytime soon). My only iffy spot is Unwired - I haven't seen it yet, but as far as I can tell from dumpshock, it's chock full of extra crunchy bits for Hackers/Technomancers.

Personally as GM I haven't even wrapped my head around the core matrix rules and handwave most hacking, since my players are never hackers (so far). I can't imagine trying to keep even MORE matrix rules straight at this point. Once I purchase Unwired I'm guessing it will sit on the shelf until someone says "I want to make a hacker (or TM)". At that point, i'll hand them the book and say "go nuts".

If you have players who are up for it, you could suggest they buy relevant books such as Unwired for the hacker, Augmentation for the cybersam, etc. It's never bad to have doubles at the table, or be able to make your character at home. Personally I'd like to require that my players all buy the core rulebook at minimum, but sadly i'd get lynched, drawn and quartered, burned alive in a pit full of pissed off vipers, and then scattered as ashes to the wind.

Hey, could be worse. I went out to my LGS and they were selling the whole shebang... only would have cost me:

BBB 80$
Unwired 80$
RC 80$
Augmented 80$
Street Magic 80$
Arsenal 80$
Judge Screen 80$
-----------------------
560$ AUD
560*.7 = $392 American Dollars
...

HELL NO!
So instead of buying them full price at the LGS here, I'm going to send away for the full set, and get the whole thing for +$40 american in international shipping.
There are, as it turns out, reasons NOT to move to Australia.

I say get all of Arsenal, Runner's Companion, and Augmentation. They are all awesome.

Arsenal just has SO much of everything, for everyone. Gear, toys, martial arts, vehicles, mods, magical goodies. Everything. It's wonderful, and it fills in sooo many gear holes it's not funny.

Runner's Companion, IMO, is fantastic. Karmagen hands down is one of the best character creation systems that favors balanced skills and abilities over the ''hmm...lets hardmax this and softmax this for maximum BP to Karma ratio!'' of the BP system.* Also, the amount of karma that one can use is easily adjusted up, down, or left the same. It's got a few issues with it, yes, but IMO, it's head and shoulders over BP(unless you use FrankTrollman's optional BP rules, in which case, the BP system works pretty well.) Also, more character options=more stuff to do at the table=more variety. If you want something out of the ordinary, they have something for it.

Augmentation, for folks like me, is great-I love the cyberware. It's also a wonderful book with lots of cyberware options.

I also would say Street Magic should be in the ''buy'' pile, as I do love that book as well. I haven't gotten enough through Unwired to give a fair opinion of it.


*I apologize if this statement sounds a bit harsh, but I'm just not too much of a BPgen fan. I don't hate it with the fury of a thousand suns or anything, but I'm just not a fan.

After seeing the last incarnation of the Pornomancer, I dispute that karmagen "favors balanced skills and abilities". Heck, I made a straight mage under karmagen; she evolved into a grade-3 initiate with an Edge of 8. Karmagen is significantly more overpowered than BP's are. BP is far from perfect as well, but I don't think karmagen really has any advantages over it.

Runner's Companion is worth it just for the expanded Lifestyle rules. The Karma gen rules are also great as long as you fix Attribute costs (both during build and play).

I've found the Metavariants need some tweaking to get "right", but the Advanced Lifestyle rules are great for building a good picture in your head of your character's "fluffy" side.

For what it's worth, my fiancee really likes her copy of Runner's Companion.

Karmagen favors balanced skills and abilities because 750 karma is a lavish allocation for most builds. Instead of fiddling and fudging to max out your specialty, you can max out your specialty, and have points left to get other stuff with.

The karmagen pornomancer is more "balanced" than the BP version. With both, you can get 51 dice (the BP version only has less because it has not been updated with global fame, etc.). But the karma version has better Attributes, the artisan skill, a full range of social skills (the others are at 4 + specialization), and the stealth skill group. Karmagen is not balanced in the sense of discouraging power combos, but it is balanced in the sense of being able to create power combos that look more realistic, rather than hyper-specialists who can do nothing else.

Absolutely. I loved Runner's Companion. But Arsenal is pretty darn essential IMHO.

- J.

This might just be me, but I prefer this. If you gave me the choice of a 600 Karma character(roughly worth around 400-425 BP, give or take it seems, though again, hard to tell exactly), or a 500 BP character(supposedly around 700-750 Karma), I'd take the 600 karma character. Even though, in theory, the 500 BP character is more powerful than 600 Karma, I feel like I have more...control, I guess you can say. BP gives control, but somehow, even if you give me less karma than BP to work with, I feel much more comfortable somehow. No everyone is like this of course, which is why it's an optional system.

But speaking again from my experience, I see a lot less of the super-die pools and more overall spread out, able to do several things well characters. Even though people, in theory, CAN take any system and twink it to high heaven(hell, Priority has this too), I see a lot less glass-cannon specialists(as in a sam who can only sam, a hacker who can only hack, etc), under Karmagen, even if less Karma is given than 750(600, for example.) As for discouraging power combos...that should just be discussed among people at the beginning. Even I know, thinking about it, that BP isn't to blame for the twinkage that happens. None of the systems should be ''to blame'' IMO. (Yeah, even I forget this sometimes, as shown in my other post.)

And I kinda realized something. I hate to do comparisons and everything, but I remember the boards somewhat ''back in the day'', when your choice was Priority/BeCKS/Point Build, and there wasn't nearly as much debate about them. I wonder what changed with these chargen systems that make them more hotly debated these days? (Ok, there were some-Sum-to-10 certainly had some debate, and the biggest debate the old Build Point system had of SR3 that I remember was that it favored sams and cheesed mages,and that priority favored aspected magicians, etc.)

Don't want to derail too much, but I AM trying to make a point that maybe trying the RC and Karmagen isn't a bad idea. Variety is the spice of life, and you and your players might find the system to be very much to your liking-or not. But never know unless you try. (This is assuming folks who haven't had the RC or had a chance to test it, of course. )

I know that most people like the dead tree versions of the books, but I MUCH prefer the PDFs:

1. You can get them a lot faster
2. You can search the PDF for a term and find things easier
3. the idea of carrying all of your Shadowrun books on a single SD card is so cyberpunk! ... back up often!

hi hi

The runners companion is very much worth it, but its worth is highest when starting a new game with new characters. If already in a game with already made characters, it should be safe to hold off until characters start dying/retiring and needing replacements. (although the interior art can be pretty atrocious at times in RC)

As for Unwired, it may be a big deal for technomancers but I've found that it's biggest help is to the GM. The core book has all the rules you need to do matrix stuff, but Unwired has the guidelines you need to actually make the matrix environments for your players to hack into. Without Unwired, when your player says "I want to hack into the public works node and turn off the power" GMs are left scrambling to make something up, "probably involving firewall ratings or something."

I like having PDFs too, but unless you've got a gigantic monitor, the books themselves are great for cross referencing things. I had a friend who, when the bindings wore out, got them spiral bound. Best. Idea. Ever.

The older systems worked better. That isn't to say that you couldn't create monstrosities under any of them, but the newer systems are more wide-open, and thus more prone to abuses.

Cain was talking about wide bursts(burst fire mode), not long bursts(full auto mode). So it is still a simple action to fire all 6 firearms (if you have 6 arms). But my personal favorite is to cut the cost of buying so much Ambidex and carry 2
Assault Rifles and 2 SMGs, then you actually got 2 free hands to reload.

I think that it would have been much the same, had BeCKS been an official alternative to the BP system. Competitive players of specialist characters can only like a karma system if they dislike their own nature. The BP:karma ratio is gone, and min/maxing is no longer an utility-maxing strategy. Efficiency-minded but non-competitive players will dig that.

Since both camps care about rules, you have your discussion right there. (I think that giving "too much" karma, compared to BP, was a good move, since everyone can easily agree to "have more points". The divide could have been between players of generalists and specialists.)

I actually rather the Karmagen since I like characters who are not hyper-specialist. And of course, the last step in SR4 character creation is "GM Approvel".

If a player turns in a twinked to high heaven character, smack the player and tell him 'No twinks allowed'.

*smack!* No Twinkie GM's allowed!

I hear this all the bloody time, GM's whinging and moaning about how their players keep bringing them twinked characters, and then taking a sadistic glee in cutting the players down. If the players created a legal, by-the-book character that's too powerful, the problem is with the system and the GM, not the player. The system's problem is that it doesn't adequately define acceptable power levels, and the GM's fault for not making expectations clear.

I've got a power gamer in my current game, and I've been able to keep him under control with a suggested dice pool cap. He still gets to do hugely powerful things, but he also can't break the game as easily. He also is creating more well-rounded characters, since once he caps out, he doesn't spend more BP trying to sqeeze out a few more modifiers.

Bottom line: if you're contemplating smacking a player around, first beat yourself about the head with your own books. Odds are, you're at least equally responsible.

Funny enough, the pornomancer seems to be the one build that gets the most out of hand(possession mages second, but they seem to be less about raw BP, since you need crap-for-physical attributes for them). Many other builds, particularly combat-it just becomes entirely not worth it to squeeze out 2-4 more dice. For a gunbunny, getting that 6(+2) pistols is easy, and the 5(whatever) Agility. But when you start Aptituding and Statmaxing and re-augmenting and this and that, you realized you gained 4 dice for one skill at the cost of about 4 different skills, and it just isn't worth it. I suppose some techie or stealth adepts can get pretty insane(due to the cheap cost of the dice), but you still need the base raw skill to increase them. Except for the social stuff, I find the diminishing returns just kick in too much. When it takes an average of 3 dice to nail 1 success, it becomes even less attractive to go this far.


As a GM who tends to use lots of optional rules in the sourcebooks, i tend to warn people about trying to squeeze out those 4 combat dice for their own sake; they have a good chance of just becoming some serious one-trick ponies and setting themselves up for boredom, all for an average of 1 more hit.

[That being said, I guess any ol' build can get out of hand if you don't watch it. But it does become rough on the BP or Karma pool to do it with the non-social builds., IME.]