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Seidaku
Well, as my first and only character has recently crossed over to the other side, I've decided to play a decidedly different sort. My first character was a heavy-cyber minotaur, with a modified body of 17. My new character is a shaman with a body of 4. Well, at least, that's the current plan. However, based on just a few simple tests, it seems unlikely that the new character will be able to survive if an enemy is *ever* given the chance to shoot at him. I'm at a loss as to how to proceed. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if I roll ALL successes, I could only stage the damage down by two levels. Given that my armor is not as 'uber' as my previous character's, rolling all successes isn't very likely, either.)

Clearly, I cannot be the only person ever to have a character with a body score of less than the absolute maximum possible. Surely those who have done so before have survived (at least for a little while), and I'm interested in knowing how.

I understand that combat is supposed to be lethal; that is part of the thrill, after all. But I cannot fathom how it is even possible for low-body characters to go on runs, given that a single shot is apt to inflict deadly damage.

I also understand that, often times, when shots start flying, the run is already a failure. Sadly, as my group is composed mostly of newbies, we have many 'failures' according to that definition.

So, any suggestions? Could anyone relate previous experiences they've had?
Herald of Verjigorm
Don't charge into combat. Get cover and do what you do best: magic. If you want to be tougher in a fight, armor (the spell), maybe a barrier (also a spell), and a custom treat spell that is self only.
Kagetenshi
I will now slap you until you beg for mercy and admit that 4 body is not "low body".

~J

Edit: for the question at hand: combat pool. Suddenly you're throwing 8 dice.
Oh yes. That and NOT BEING THE MEAT SHIELD. That's what you have characters like your old one for.
Tanka
Agreed. If you're playing something with low body, maybe you shouldn't be sitting in the middle of the firefight. Low body characters are either melee or distance (snipers/magic). Don't try to merge a low body character into something a Troll demon would be.
Fortune
I don't recall ever playing a character with a Body over 6. 4 is the norm for my magically-active characters, and I don't seem to have too much in the way of problems keeping him alive. Just keep in mind that he is not a combat-oriented character and you should be alright.
Seidaku
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I will now slap you until you beg for mercy and admit that 4 body is not "low body".

~J

Edit: for the question at hand: combat pool. Suddenly you're throwing 8 dice.
Oh yes. That and NOT BEING THE MEAT SHIELD. That's what you have characters like your old one for.

Well, for a guy used to 17, it is nyahnyah.gif

And believe me, being a 'meat shield' is definitely something I plan on avoiding. However, the enemies we encounter have that pesky 'Geek the mage first!" attitude, oftentimes. It was also due to my own failure to fully embrace that idea that I'm now creating a new character.
Fortune
So don't have the character look like a mage.
Artemis
Exactly.

The troll is what magicians commonly refer to as “The Wall”. Mages take partial cover behind them, cover their own bodies with a safe load of armor and chuck spells from back there while giving the troll spell defense.

4 is pretty high for a mage I'd say. For an effective one at least. Typically my mages average about 2 to 3 or so. Sustain an increased Body spell and some other additives once you've built up enough karma... and you're in good shape.
Tanka
Exactly. Give him a gun. Get Masking as quickly as possible. Even give him a few pieces of 'ware and gaesa them off.
D.Generate
Herald is right. Seeing most most long lived character was a mage I have a little insite on this.

Here are the rules:

1. You are not a troll you don't stop bullets, stay the hell out of fire lanes and close combat.

2. Magic is your best friend, use spells lile fashion and make over to infiltrate areas with guards. Be creative.

3. Learn masking and quiken metamagic, boost body and initiative with proper spells and quiken and mask them.

4. Take a more supportive roll in combat, bullet barriers and area effect illusion spells.

Un fortunately my rule number 5 won't work for you since you are to be a shaman but I'll list it here anyways.

5. Do not look like a mage, strap on a sword carry an smg, works better if you can actually use the weapons significantly well. Remeber magic in the 6th world don't have to be ellaborate,crazy chanting and arm movements all you have to do is think and it works. Shamans however work a little different its not that they have to dance and act a fool, they choose to. Its like thier belief system so to speak.


Hope that helps some, most importantly be smart don't act like a tank because you are not one.
D.Generate
Damn see most of my rules weer covered in the time I took to type that. Oh well just think of that as a quick and easy refresher course list.
Tanka
Actually, Shamans don't have to "act a fool," and they don't always choose to. The dead giveaway with a Shaman is the Shamanic Mask. Any time they cast a spell, they look like their totem, moreso for a higher force than a lower force.
Seidaku
QUOTE (tanka)
Exactly. Give him a gun. Get Masking as quickly as possible. Even give him a few pieces of 'ware and gaesa them off.

Other than the 'ware, that has been my plan. My shaman is quite handy with a shotgun (prompting the Shotguns and Choke thread), and as soon as possible(potentially during chargen) I hope to get masking. It was just rather startling to see that, when resisting a shot from his own shotgun, he dies 99% of the time. Perhaps more armor is the route to go? I've currently only got a secure longcoat and formfitting half body armor. Still, resisting 3D with 4 body isn't exactly easy..
Tanka
QUOTE (Seidaku)
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 24 2003, 03:56 AM)
Exactly.  Give him a gun.  Get Masking as quickly as possible.  Even give him a few pieces of 'ware and gaesa them off.

Other than the 'ware, that has been my plan. My shaman is quite handy with a shotgun (prompting the Shotguns and Choke thread), and as soon as possible(potentially during chargen) I hope to get masking. It was just rather startling to see that, when resisting a shot from his own shotgun, he dies 99% of the time. Perhaps more armor is the route to go? I've currently only got a secure longcoat and formfitting half body armor. Still, resisting 3D with 4 body isn't exactly easy..

No, it isn't. Which is what Combat Pool is for.
Sunday_Gamer
I started and up until VERY recently had 2, and now have 3 Body.

I stay BEHIND the Sam!
I just bought some new armor, over which I can slap a force 6 armor spell.
I can also slap that armor on the Sam.
I stay BEHIND the Sam!
My reflexes suck (for now), and my body sucks (cause I'm small!) sooooo
I stay BEHIND the Sam!
My Sam, being terribly clever, has himself a little homemade skill called Bodyguard.
It's a pretty simple skill, you can "give" your rating in dice from your own combat pool to anyone within 10 feet of you to assist in their protection.
Being that I'm small, light and slow, I stay very close to him at all time, because he's easily strong enough to manhandle me like a sack of potatoes, he's a gbjillion times faster than I am and has better hearing and sight so he'll see trouble before I do. Gives me an extra 3 dice (his rating in BG) to dodge behind cover (him).

That's how I stay alive.

Kong
Seidaku
QUOTE (tanka)
Actually, Shamans don't have to "act a fool," and they don't always choose to. The dead giveaway with a Shaman is the Shamanic Mask. Any time they cast a spell, they look like their totem, moreso for a higher force than a lower force.

Indeed; my shaman is far different from most of the shaman stereotypes presented in the BBB. I figure following the Wise Warrior idol probably involves less 'crazy dancing' and the like than, say, following the Eagle totem. I had been planning on playing my character much more as though he draws his magic from his own inner strength, rather than from some special bond with nature.

Of course the shamanic mask raises an interesting question; what DOES it look like, when you follow an idol?
Fortune
QUOTE
No, it isn't. Which is what Combat Pool is for.

And using cover and other tactics that raise your opponents' TNs.
The Jake
Avoid combat where you can.

When it cannot be avoided, use spells that either provide armor, shielding and/or ways to avoid detection in the first place (depends on your totem I guess).

Make use of cover and terrain, lighting, etc. Look for ways to make it as difficult for him to hit you as possible. Try to create distractions. Remember if you switch to astral perception you won't suffer from vision penalties like he will and you can still smack him with a sleep spell or powerbolt a lot easier than he can hit you with an SMG.

- J.
toturi
Imp. Invisibility. No see, no shoot, no hit, no need to soak/dodge. Haveaniceday. smile.gif
Cain
Simple answer: Don't get hit!

Dodge everything you can. Stay behind cover. Let the combat-monsters draw enemy fire. Use your magic defensively (illusions, Barriers) and reserve it for the things only magic can do.

The good thing about going last is, everyone else has acted and shot at the bigger threats.
Lilt
I second the 'be invisible' argument. There is a little trick that's commonly used which is that you can cast it at force 1 into a force 1 sustaining focus. The 'trick' is that you can get so many successes that they would need an intelligence of 7+ to see through the spell.

OK: There's still a chance of being hit by stray bullets. Levitating above your target can lower that though.

Finally: the Trauma Dampener is your friend. Not only does it make it less likely that you will die from a single deadly wound (impossible unless you're using the rules for deadly-over damage) but it makes drain easier meaning you can chuck more dice at casting or conjuring.
Seidaku
QUOTE (Lilt)
I second the 'be invisible' argument. There is a little trick that's commonly used which is that you can cast it at force 1 into a force 1 sustaining focus. The 'trick' is that you can get so many successes that they would need an intelligence of 7+ to see through the spell.

Really? Doesn't Improved Invis have a base target number of 4? Getting that many successes with tn 4 seems unlikely..
toturi
Shouldn't that be casting the invis at as high a force as possible? Your TN is 4, not force of spell but the target's resistance is against your spell's force.
Lilt
QUOTE (Seidaku)
Really? Doesn't Improved Invis have a base target number of 4? Getting that many successes with tn 4 seems unlikely..

6 Sorcery, 6 pool, Totem mods, maybe some foci dice, and Centering if you have it. You could easily get an average of 7+ successes.

Note that the average may not even matter. You don't always need to take your first casting so you might have enough time to drop the spell and cast it again until you get an acceptible number of successes. I'd settle on anything more than 6 usually.
Lilt
QUOTE (toturi)
Shouldn't that be casting the invis at as high a force as possible? Your TN is 4, not force of spell but the target's resistance is against your spell's force.

Yes, but force 1 works fine for me. If you cast it with 8 successes than there's a 0% chance that anybody with less than 8 intelligence will resist (barring things like karma pool burning ETC)
Glyph
Several people have already brought up Combat Pool. Note that as a mage, with a high Intelligence and Willpower, you probably have a decent Combat Pool. Note that if you don't use Combat Pool for your shotgun, you will have lots and lots of it to use for dodging. Also remember that sometimes it is easier to dodge (with a TN of usually around 4) than it is to soak for the heavier stuff - in fact, it is only better to use Combat Pool to soak if you know your armor will make your TN lower than 4 (if someone attacks you with a light pistol, for instance, you will generally wind up with a TN of 2 to soak, making that the better choice).
toturi
I can't remember where I read it but isn't there something that says you can't have more successes than your force? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Lilt
QUOTE (toturi)
I can't remember where I read it but isn't there something that says you can't have more successes than your force? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Some spells work like that. That limit only applies when it says so in the spell's description though (and it's not in the description of Invis/Improved Invis)
The Jopp
Eh? Body 4 is LOW eek.gif ? My STREETSAM has a NATURAL body of 3. Ok, so she has Dermal Sheet+Bonelacing to gain a total of 8D6+combat pool. cyber.gif

Now, that body is just enough to soak D damage, add combat pool on that (+3D6) and she should do just fine. Her job is of course not to get hit in the first place.

*Grumble*

Low body...Bah... ohplease.gif
Austere Emancipator
Another vote for Sustained ImpInvis.

The sorcerer in my group is a veteran of ~8 big firefights (at least a platoon of baddies, machineguns going full auto all over the place, grenades flying this way and that), and she only got hit once, in the last game when she decided to take care of the flank alone and got herself in a doorway with 3 secguards around her. Result: Moderate wound from a 3-round burst of blind fire through the door (she was actually kneeling in the doorway, keeping it half-open, so she was easy to spot).

And everything else people have been saying works too. Don't hang around in the middle of the firestorm, don't get spotted, keep the TNs the hit you as high as possible, wear armor, keep Combat Pool available for Dodging and/or soaking.
Siege
QUOTE (Seidaku @ Dec 24 2003, 03:38 AM)
Well, as my first and only character has recently crossed over to the other side, I've decided to play a decidedly different sort.  My first character was a heavy-cyber minotaur, with a modified body of 17.  My new character is a shaman with a body of 4.  Well, at least, that's the current plan.  However, based on just a few simple tests, it seems unlikely that the new character will be able to survive if an enemy is *ever* given the chance to shoot at him.  I'm at a loss as to how to proceed. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if I roll ALL successes, I could only stage the damage down by two levels.  Given that my armor is not as 'uber' as my previous character's, rolling all successes isn't very likely, either.)

Clearly, I cannot be the only person ever to have a character with a body score of less than the absolute maximum possible.  Surely those who have done so before have survived (at least for a little while), and I'm interested in knowing how.

I understand that combat is supposed to be lethal; that is part of the thrill, after all.  But I cannot fathom how it is even possible for low-body characters to go on runs, given that a single shot is apt to inflict deadly damage.

I also understand that, often times, when shots start flying, the run is already a failure.  Sadly, as my group is composed mostly of newbies, we have many 'failures' according to that definition.

So, any suggestions? Could anyone relate previous experiences they've had?

You remember that strange tickling sensation when you were the minotaur? That was the mage using your ass for cover. grinbig.gif

You just have to realize you're no longer the Captain of the Football team but now the Captain of the Chess club and act accordingly.

-Siege

Edit: Two rules from Murphy's
1. Incoming fire has the right of way
2. Cover is good, not getting shot at is better.
Cain
The problem with ImpInvis is that you're completely visible on the Astral, and you're going to be shouting: "Geek me, I'm a mage!" to any Awakened opposition. Dual natured paracritters, spirits, and anyone with astral perception will be targeting you first. If you're going to be sustaining a spell, Increase Body or Combat Sense will allow you to keep your edge even against awakened opponents.

For a very long time, I was running a mage with Body 2. She got out of trouble by not getting shot at (arranging stealth runs so firefights never happened), using cover, being sneaky, and using magic defensively. Spirits make great distractions, barrier spells have a world of uses, and playing it smart is the best way of surviving.
toturi
But since you are a mage, you should be able to take down any Awakened opposition you come across. That is your job. And since he's visible and you are not, he'll get himself geeked by your team sam. Or dont your team work as a team?
RedmondLarry
Just to add to all the good advice already given...

"Drop Prone" is a Free Action, and can save your life. You can use it at any point during a Phase when you act, or at the end of any Phase when someone else has acted. Use it carefully, as it requires a Willpower(Force) test to keep sustaining a spell when you drop prone, and because getting back up ("Change Position") is a Simple Action (and requires a Willpower test if you are wounded).

Use "Delay Action" if it is too dangerous to do something on your regular Initiative Count. You can delay your last action of the Combat Turn till the very end of the last Initiative Pass without losing any actions.

Carry a Light Pistol. Nobody ever shoots at the guy with the light pistol.
L.D
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Carry a Light Pistol.  Nobody ever shoots at the guy with the light pistol.

Unless they figure he's the mage. wink.gif

Tiralee
QUOTE
Carry a Light Pistol. Nobody ever shoots at the guy with the light pistol.


I do. But then, I shoot everyone. rotfl.gif

Well, everyone's mentioned the best ways to deal with the whole body issue, which boils down to not get hit, and the best ways to achieve this.

So, why not have your character stick to longish-range spell-support?

Nice set of image magnification and improved invis means that the opposing spell-slingers are more likely to be looking around near the sammy than up on the roofline.

Nothing is as welcome to a bunch of pinned-down teammates as a manaball from nowhere, closely followed by the wall-crawling (Go gecko!) shaman that heals you up and then sends along proper directions.

L-

Death from far, far away...
snowRaven
You could also go the path where you use the spells Increase Body, Increase Reflexes, Armor, Deflect, and Combat Sense (with sustaining foci and later quickened) and alternante your attacks between combat spells, guns, and elemental manipulations...

Later you also add Increase Quickness, Increase Willpower and Increase Intelligence, and you'll end up with a combat pool out of this world (around 16, with 4-5 extra dice for dodging is far from impossible). Granted, you fill the same role as a street sam and loose out on some of the finer points in magic...
Siege
Well, hell, just carry a cyberdeck.

Nobody ever wastes ammo on the decker in real time. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Rattler
QUOTE (snowRaven)
You could also go the path where you use the spells Increase Body, Increase Reflexes, Armor, Deflect, and Combat Sense (with sustaining foci and later quickened) and alternante your attacks between combat spells, guns, and elemental manipulations...

Later you also add Increase Quickness, Increase Willpower and Increase Intelligence, and you'll end up with a combat pool out of this world (around 16, with 4-5 extra dice for dodging is far from impossible). Granted, you fill the same role as a street sam and loose out on some of the finer points in magic...

You'll never make it past a ward with that many spells quickened to you. The whole point is to avoid a firefight, not start one. smile.gif
toturi
Sometimes, the whole objective of the run is to start one. There would be no need for a street sam if you never get into a firefight.
Tanka
QUOTE (toturi)
Sometimes, the whole objective of the run is to start one. There would be no need for a street sam if you never get into a firefight.

No, the need for the Street Sam is to provide backup should there be a firefight. He could be good for just show or moving stuff around. The Street Sam's job isn't just to kill things.
Kesh
My favorites have always been Raccoon and Raven shamans for characters that aren't combat oriented. Manipulation spells are your friend... barriers, levitation, elemental effects, mind control.

And, of course, Wolf for combat shamans. biggrin.gif

But, yes. If you're a low-body shaman, stick to a support role. Let the big guns go first (and guard the rear), you provide them with buffs and cover magic.

Protect yourself with some form of magical armor. The Armor spell (or the old 'Personal Bullet Barrier', in 2e) can help tremendously. Also, regular armor can be very good. I always layered an Armor Vest w/ Plates (4/3) with a Secure Longcoat (4/2), to get decent protection (6/4). Though you need a good Quickness score, if you want to keep your Combat Pool up.

Also, the longcoat was great for concealing the mage's/shaman's best friend: the shotgun. biggrin.gif Usually, I'm packing a light pistol for backup, and either a Remington Roomsweeper or a full-bore shotgun for primary. Otherwise, a decent SMG can replace the shotgun, giving you a bit more control over what you're hitting.

One thing to consider, as people mentioned, is appearance. The longcoat is good, as pretty much anybody could be wearing it. Just don't adorn it with tribal symbols, bits of fur & feather, or ancient runes. rotfl.gif

In addition, if you're not too hung up on Essence/Magic, sneaking a bit of cyber in can be a good way to confuse opponents. Obvious cybereyes, a datajack or a Smartlink 'induction pad' will make it less likely the opponents try to 'geek the mage' until it's too late (not to mention the combat advantages).

One silly option I used was the shapeshift spell. Turn yourself into a mouse and hide in someone's pocket. cool.gif

re: Idol 'masks'

These aren't terribly different from shamanic masks. Just take the Idol and imagine its idealized form. The Adversary could be a coal-black form with firey eyes, or an angelic looking figure shining brightly (the Light-Bringer). Someone with a Norse-based Idol might take a mask of a bearded, weather worn Viking, etc.
Cain
Yeah, I forgot to mention sidearms. A shotgun or a big fragoff pistol like a warhawk are great for mages. They're good for everyone, but shotguns are especially good for those without smartlinks. They cause lots of damage, they can fire a spread, and if you're really proficient you can double as a gun bunny.

You may not be the big takedown machine, but a BF shotgun loaded with shot makes for one hell of a supressive-fire weapon. You don't even need combat pool on the attack, so you can save it for dodging.

Seidaku's probably used to the reverse, where he could spend all his combat pool on the attack, and rely on his high body to absorb most damage. Trolls are nice that way. It's the same principle, here-- you use magic and other attacks that don't require a lot of combat pool, and save it to defend.
QUOTE
But since you are a mage, you should be able to take down any Awakened opposition you come across. That is your job. And since he's visible and you are not, he'll get himself geeked by your team sam.

If you're fighting as a team, you make sure you can be covered by your team. When you're dealing with paracritters, usually the sam is best equipped to deal with it. When dealing with spirits, yeah, the mage is on his own; but when dealing with opposing mages, you just want to provide spell defense and let the sams take care of him. If you're invisible, however, you won't be able to readily point out who the enemy mage is; and it'll be much harder to provide covering tactics for you.
Spookymonster
There's no rule that says you have to start slinging your heaviest spells the second combat breaks out. First things first: get to cover. Break out a mirror or compact so you can keep an eye on the fight without getting your head blown off. Let the gunbunnies exchange a little lead with their friends for a while. It makes them so happy.

Next, help out the sammies with a little defense - Spell Defense, that is. There's nothing obvious about Spell Defense (or Dispelling, for that matter), so you're still maintaining a low profile. Any mage/shaman can do this, regardless of what's in their spellbook.

Bullet shields are good. Elemental secondary effects can help create a 'fog of war' situation. Consider Smoke Cloud or Acid Wave at Force 1(D). Careful, though, since they may reveal your hiding spot.

Wait a phase or two, especially if your sammies aren't getting beat down too much. Let the enemy team's mage reveal himself first. If you don't catch any incoming magic by then, you're probably safe switching from offense to defense.

Q: What's better than an enemy firing blindly in your direction?
A: An enemy firing blindly in his teammate's direction.

Physical Mask a random enemy to look like a sterotypical shaman.

Phantasm a team of combat mages behind your enemies, so they have to divy up their firepower. Don't forget the special effects (blue sparks coming off their force-33 Barrier, maniacal laughter barking forth from your phantom Shark shaman's lips, etc.). A sustaining focus works just as well with these illusions as it does with Invisibility.

Magic Finger/Levitate grenades out of bandaleros. Whip the thermovision goggles off their heads. Pull their precious long coats over their heads.

Just 'cuz you're a mage doesn't mean you've got to make a target of yourself by whippin' out the lightning bolts all the time.

As for keeping out-of-sight, most nature spirits have the Concealment ability. AFAIK, this can help keep you hidden on both the mundane and astral planes.

Astral Chameleon Edge (+2 TN to anyone trying to assense you) helps keep you hidden from snooping mages. You can get it at chargen, and it works great with Masking once you become an Initiate.
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 25 2003, 02:33 PM)
A shotgun or a big fragoff pistol like a warhawk are great for mages.

My personal fav? A Roomsweeper loaded with Bolo rounds (TN 10 for Knockdown tests). Easy to conceal, but with a high takedown factor. It may not kill them, but it'll sure as hell put 'em down long enough to make good your escape.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
Next, help out the sammies with a little defense - Spell Defense, that is. There's nothing obvious about Spell Defense (or Dispelling, for that matter), so you're still maintaining a low profile. Any mage/shaman can do this, regardless of what's in their spellbook.

Actually, it's quite obvious if there's another spellslinger. However, the source isn't very obvious, so it's almost as good as true nonobviousness.

~J
Zazen
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
As for keeping out-of-sight, most nature spirits have the Concealment ability. AFAIK, this can help keep you hidden on both the mundane and astral planes.

That's a common misconception. Concealment doesn't work astrally, it is listed as a physical power.
Cain
But it also doesn't broadcast you as a mage, not the way an invisibility spell does. And it can cover a whole team at once.
Spookymonster
Duly noted.
toturi
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
Astral Chameleon Edge (+2 TN to anyone trying to assense you) helps keep you hidden from snooping mages. You can get it at chargen, and it works great with Masking once you become an Initiate.

THe Astral Chameleon Edge only cover your astral signature, anyone assensing you would only need worry about Masking.
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