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Gast
The policlub thread led me to an interesting question: Why should there be a large number of people with higher education from developed countries left? As you cannot undercut the living cost of countries who are underdeveloped, megacorps should act like locusts and always hire the doctors and scientific minds from these countries first. And as finding a job with a diploma is really improbable if you're from a developed country and thus have a high cost of living, few people would invest. There would always be stipendiate programs for the obviously gifted, and the children of the ultra rich who don't have to care about that kind of money (assuming government funding to universities et al. has declined or stopped, in accordance with the NWO), but that's it. That should lead to some cycle of human resource crop rotation, where the living standards of all countries on Earth except for restrictive authoritarian regimes get on the same level. Is that level reached in SR? I'm not certain about that.

Also, there is no language barrier anymore. Speech chips are relatively cheap compared to the cost of quality labour, and the employee can still have to take an advance on his salary to finance the implants. And through the vast and infinite web called Matrix, there is absolutely no trouble in finding and interviewing people in even the most remote corners of the Earth, and megacorps are vlose to ominpresent anyway, so they can easily interview, test and hire these people without costly travel procedures.
Ol' Scratch
You assume everyone cares about money. Not everyone does. There are countless examples today of doctors, scientists, and teachers who forgo wealth in lieu of doing charity work in third world countries. Not because it's in their best self-interest, but because they want to.
Gast
True, but I was thinking about the high prices of education in the future that raise the entrance barriers for higher learning a lot. That is because I assume in the world of Shadowrun, Universities run on a completely economic model, just like everything else. That means, if you get out of your place of study, the normal person would have accumulated such a debt that a lot of people would now have to take the best paid job to get rid of their debts (another possibility would of course be to discard the SIN ^^). Of course there would also be those people you describe, but they'd have to be wealthy enough to be able to afford that kind of charity.

Following that, I assumed that due to the cost of living in developed countries, where the soy/fuel/housing is more expensive than in developing countries, most people from lower to middle income society would see that their chance to pay off such a debt is so small that they wouldn't bother with an academic career in the first place. Let's not talk about soft sciences like sociology, philosophy and such.
CanRay
This is actually why Scientist Extractions are able to work.

Scientist Sam is an expert in Transdimentional Physics. But, while working at Renraku, they got him working on Paradimentional Physics as if it's the same thing!!!

Mitsuhama offers SS a chance to jump ship and do what he actually wants, all he has to do is go with the JoyToy Elf that offers him a blue carnation.

Enter the 'Runners.
Ol' Scratch
You're also forgetting the existance of Tutorsofts. Or the fact that it's kind of useless for a megacorp to scoop up all the brilliant minds around the world and leave those areas to rot when the Next Great Mind might be found in those self-same areas.
Gast
Yes, but extractions take place for the upper crust, the scientific elite. Not for your run-of-the-mill DocWagon doc who's happy if he can afford a middle sized apartment and maybe something above the cheapest commuter cars. Those people have to have a pretty good education, too.
The ubbergeek
Maybe on the cynical side, there *is* profits to be made yet still? The corporations are not also the only players there, and freelancers/independant workers still exist...
Gast
Yes, I was forgetting tutorsofts. So, how do you think they'd fit into the picture? Instead of going to university, Fritz Everyork runs those things while flipping Schnitzel and Pommes at the local fast food joint? I like that thought.

Your other point was what I wanted to get at with this thread. Yes, it would be bad for the corps. But corps cannot allow themselves to think like that. Investing in the national education system means they are keeping a resource healthy from which everyone may draw. Net loss for the mega who does it, net gain for those who don't. It's a typical prisoner's dilemma situation, really.
hyzmarca
Automization has reached the point where the only good use of unskilled labor is to make sure hackers don't steal your stuff. A drone can flip a burger for substantially less than a person can, for example. And drones don't need pee breaks or employee discounts.

Stuffer Shacks can work fine with just an automatic checkout system and an automated sentry gun to make sure that people don't steal stuff. When you walk it it scans your credstick if you try to walk out with more stuff than you can afford the exist closes and the ED-209 calmly asks you to return the extra merchandise.

In essence, skilled and educated jobs are the only jobs left anywhere in the world, unless you want to sell body parts to Asamando.
Gast
Drones need to be repaired, replaced, they need maintenance and parts from the supplier. Ever bought replacement parts for a car? They drain you on those.

Employees don't need all that. They get their money and if they go kaputt, you get another one. IMO, in most really low paid jobs, human labour can not be replaced cost effectively, because it's cheaper to hire 3 lowlifes than one mechanic and drone fuel. Because there's so many lowlifes, you know, and they're willing to work for practically anything.
raverbane
Yea, corps luv the indentured worker approach over the auto-drone worker in my game.

The corp employees you (paying you said wage)

You pay the corp rent.
You buy the corp's recreational goodies.
You buy the corp's food.
You pay to ride the corp's public transportation or pay to lease a car from the corp..

It pays to still have unskilled schmuks flipping soypatties at the Stuffer Shack.
Cain
You forget that a lot of corps run the schools. They want to raise good little corporate drones as well as looking for the next great mind. If the corps are offering free education, along with promotions for those who do well, people will be inclined to educate themselves.
The ubbergeek
Albeit, the education of course will be.. sterilised. And some knowledges and ideas.... Indexed.

After all, you don't want them too free-minded and criticaly thinking, that wouldn't do. No.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (raverbane @ Sep 15 2008, 10:27 PM) *
Yea, corps luv the indentured worker approach over the auto-drone worker in my game.

The corp employees you (paying you said wage)

You pay the corp rent.
You buy the corp's recreational goodies.
You buy the corp's food.
You pay to ride the corp's public transportation or pay to lease a car from the corp..

It pays to still have unskilled schmuks flipping soypatties at the Stuffer Shack.


If they live on corp property and get paid in corp scrip, yeah. If they work at Stuffer Shack and live in a crappy Seattle apartment, then no because the corp can not control where they spend. A Burger Flipper Gets paid 5.15 an hour. Over a year that's 45,115 nuyen. They also work in three shifts and if one fails to show up then you've got a choice between offering time and a half to the one who should be going home or or having an empty position.

Combat drones cost 5,000 nuyen. These are highly sophisticated machines that shoot people. A device that moves a spatula up and down, I would imagine, costs significantly less. Lets say our burger drone costs 3,000 and that it can do everything required to make a burger. It uses electricity but it also doesn't need air conditioning, so that's a push. If it only lasts for a year then you've saved 42,115 nuyen per position.

And even in a corporate controled envirement there is the issue of actual cost of the employee vs actual productivity of the employee drones work faster and they work more efficiency, and though employees pay for your resources it is still true that they're using your resources. If you replace all of our people with robots that can be the same work in half the time, you not only increase your productivity but you can turn their crappy low-rent living spaces into posh condos and make a small fortune on them.
jago668
I imagine a good many of the universities are more like technical schools. You still have some traditional schools, but a fair number would be trade schools. The corporate run ones would be that way also. They (the corps) wouldn't care if you had UCAS history 1 & 2, they would just want you to be able to do a certain job.
Cain
QUOTE
Combat drones cost 5,000 nuyen. These are highly sophisticated machines that shoot people. A device that moves a spatula up and down, I would imagine, costs significantly less. Lets say our burger drone costs 3,000 and that it can do everything required to make a burger. It uses electricity but it also doesn't need air conditioning, so that's a push. If it only lasts for a year then you've saved 42,115 nuyen per position.

Drones don't recirculate money. People do.

Let's say that said person makes 45,115 per year. Now, he spends 95% of that, but only 80% on stuff owned by his home corp. That means the company made back 36,092 on that guy. That's a difference of 6,023 over a drone. So, if he works for more than 3 years, the corp will have made a better investment.

Not to mention, humans are more adaptable than drones are. If you replace one human's job, you can teach him a different one. Not all drones can do that. So long as the corp wisely invests in education, they can have a docile and trained workforce that cycles 80-90% of the payroll back into the corp coffers.
Gast
I don't like the idea that drones are actually cheaper than human labour of the lowest category. IMO, the fuel cost for the robot together with maintenance of the robot should more than cover the price for hiring one guy, even if the drone got an electric drive. And you cannot afford not to make a maintenance contract, except if you hire a mechanic yourself. As Cain also pointed out, you'd have to update the software regularly. Maybe the drone is more effective, but really, we are talking about a fast food joint here. Effectivity is rarely a factor, only in meal time hours.
I can imagine it for big fast food chains though, they could buy and maintain giant drone fleets comparably cheaply because of economies of scale.


But I want to stay open to the idea. Let's say 95% of the working poor can be conveniently replaced by drones. 30-40% of the population lose their job. These is no social security net. The results would probably be an authoritarian state with protected markets through overwhelming support for political extremists, or straight civil war maybe.
Maybe you have another idea of what could happen. I am just really not ready to let drones do the cheap labour, because I can not imagine a working social structure with that. The biggest irony is that without the sales to the working poor, fast food joints would go bankrupt.

It's another prisoner's dilemma we have here. We maybe need an international accord from the Corp Court here, to restrict drone labour and support the education market. Without that, both the labour and the education market would get seriously fucked up, which isn't in the Megas best interest, they need educated people and customers.
The other possibility is that all but the very best unversities go broke and higher education of low to middle income classes is mainly handled over tutorsofts and AR/VR, or extended training courses on the job as well as corp owned education systems. And drones are not cheap enough to handle the jobs of the working poor, so we don't need an intervention of a higher power like the Corp Court to resolve the prisoner's dilemma (the court probably would not act on something like that without some serious incidents anyway).

Still, I already got some nice ideas out of this thread - children getting datajacks and tutorsofts from their parents instead of visiting school; a day in an automated McHughes where former employees storm in and baseball bat the service drones to trash; Ex-students turned sinless to escape their college and university loans...good material, I guess.
Cain
QUOTE
But I want to stay open to the idea. Let's say 95% of the working poor can be conveniently replaced by drones. 30-40% of the population lose their job. These is no social security net. The results would probably be an authoritarian state with protected markets through overwhelming support for political extremists, or straight civil war maybe.
Maybe you have another idea of what could happen. I am just really not ready to let drones do the cheap labour, because I can not imagine a working social structure with that. The biggest irony is that without the sales to the working poor, fast food joints would go bankrupt.

Not to disagree with you, but what you've described sounds an awful lot like the lives of the average SINless people in Shadowrun. The line between the Haves and Have Nots is more clearly drawn; the class war is over, the poor lost. The corps are still looking for a way to make money off the working poor, though, so they do need to inject enough education and money into the system to keep it going.
QUOTE
Still, I already got some nice ideas out of this thread - children getting datajacks and tutorsofts from their parents instead of visiting school; a day in an automated McHughes where former employees storm in and baseball bat the service drones to trash; Ex-students turned sinless to escape their college and university loans...good material, I guess.

I just had an inspiration. Food Fight 2! cool.gif
Gast
QUOTE
Not to disagree with you, but what you've described sounds an awful lot like the lives of the average SINless people in Shadowrun.


True, but if you lose your job, you don't lose your SIN. And in my picture of SR, there are a lot more working poor people than there are SINless people. And between SIN and SINless, there's a lot of differences to me. Also, if you rob ~35% of the population of their basic means of existence, brother we might have another go at the class war thing.

And personally, I really enjoy including the occasional commie policlub subplot or ghetto riot in my campaigns - in the world of Shadowrun, one of these powder kegs should be bursting every hour anyway. But with unemployed numbers like the drones would produce, we'd be down to one keg per second, and even a trained military rule would be overthrown pretty quickly by a mob like that IMO.
CanRay
Actually, gives me an idea of a Moralistic game where the Shadowrunners have to break up a Union trying to get Worker's Rights going again.

Against a Non-Rated or an A-Rated Corp, of course. AA-Rated and above simply make Unions Illegal in their "Country".
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 15 2008, 10:56 PM) *
Drones don't recirculate money. People do.

Let's say that said person makes 45,115 per year. Now, he spends 95% of that, but only 80% on stuff owned by his home corp. That means the company made back 36,092 on that guy. That's a difference of 6,023 over a drone. So, if he works for more than 3 years, the corp will have made a better investment.


What a second? Losing six grand for three years is somehow a better investment. That doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, recirculation is marred by economic entropy. Goods generally cost what the market will bear. That usually isn't very much over cost, due to competition. Lets say that the Corp makes a soyburger value meal for 2 nuyen and charges 3 for it. When an outside customer eats that soyburger value meal its entire cost is returned in addition to the profit. When an employee eats that soyburger value meal 2 nuyen vanishes into the aether, resulting in a net loss of 1 nuyen for the Corp.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics, in a closed system entropy always increases. Economic entropy is the reason why Socialism in one Country failed miserably. Without a constant influx of new resources any economy is doomed to failure.


The actual cost of labor is measured in actual resource costs taking into account economic entropy - actual value of production. For humans, actual resource costs include things like lights, air conditioning, equipment, safety gear, and other necessities in addition to wages - (recirculated wages - economic entropy) while actual production is reduced by things like lunch breaks, smoke breaks, shift changes, sick days, slowdown, and ect.

Drones do cost electricity, but they also don't need environmental conditioning, or safety gear, except in the most extreme environments. Furthermore, drones can go into power-saving mode when there is no work for them while you have to pay metahumans full wages to stand around and do nothing. Furthermore, drones tend to work more quickly and more efficiently than metahumans do, increasing overall production. Remember the tale of John Henry. the greatest steel-driving man to ever live. Though he was able to keep up with his mechanical replacement for some time, he died from the extreme exertion of performing at that level. And he was the greatest steel-driving man who ever lived. Most people wouldn't have been able to come close to matching him and, by extension, most wouldn't have come close to matching the steam hammer.

And, of course, if you have to buy hammers for all of your employees anyway, there is little reason not to fire them all and buy robot hammers instead.

There will, of course. always be jobs that require a level of adaptability that specialized drones don't have, and metahumans will be necessary for these jobs. Customer service in a posh restaurant is a good example. You'll want actual people instead of robots simply for atmosphere. Manning the desk at an upscale hotel to deal with customer complaints is another (low-rent motels have ED-209s to handle customer complaints). Anything that requires direct friendly interaction with metahumans benefits from a metahuman, actually, as does anything that thinking outside the box.
CanRay
That's your answer to everything, isn't it?

Just pull out the ED-209 and let them go nuts.

...

Good answer.
Cain
QUOTE
Anyway, recirculation is marred by economic entropy. Goods generally cost what the market will bear. That usually isn't very much over cost, due to competition. Lets say that the Corp makes a soyburger value meal for 2 nuyen and charges 3 for it. When an outside customer eats that soyburger value meal its entire cost is returned in addition to the profit. When an employee eats that soyburger value meal 2 nuyen vanishes into the aether, resulting in a net loss of 1 nuyen for the Corp.

That presumes the employee gets to eat the soyburger for free. That's not necessarily the case, some restaurants don't even offer employee discounts. And even when they do, sometimes you're only allowed leftovers, which would otherwise go to waste. By doing that, the corp gets say, 50% of the value; a good deal for them, since otherwise they'd get 0%.

While I understand economic entropy, I did factor that into the equation, by calculating a 80% return rate instead of 100%.
QUOTE
Drones do cost electricity, but they also don't need environmental conditioning, or safety gear, except in the most extreme environments. Furthermore, drones can go into power-saving mode when there is no work for them while you have to pay metahumans full wages to stand around and do nothing. Furthermore, drones tend to work more quickly and more efficiently than metahumans do, increasing overall production.

Drones also require regular maintenance, and metahuman oversight. Keep any machine going 24/7, and you will start getting errors. And even when things are working correctly, you need someone on hand in case of a breakdown, or other error. (Like not getting the new cooking protocols, and instead continuing to use the old ones.) At any event, you can't completely remove the need for regular employees, and your foreman and mechanic will need to be educated.
QUOTE
And personally, I really enjoy including the occasional commie policlub subplot or ghetto riot in my campaigns - in the world of Shadowrun, one of these powder kegs should be bursting every hour anyway. But with unemployed numbers like the drones would produce, we'd be down to one keg per second, and even a trained military rule would be overthrown pretty quickly by a mob like that IMO.

True. I can see how keeping things one step shy of the revolution would make for a fun and exciting game. However, don't underestimate bread and circuses. That's been a very successful prescription for a very long time.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 16 2008, 11:32 AM) *
That presumes the employee gets to eat the soyburger for free. That's not necessarily the case, some restaurants don't even offer employee discounts.


Actually, that assumes that the employee is paying full price, no more than what any other customer would pay. It also assumes that the corp is marking up its soyburger value meals by 50%, which is a rather high markup which is certain to be driven lower by market forces.

Corporations get keep the profit from their sales. However, there are also costs which must be paid before one has profit.

Lets say you pay a guy 3 nuyen for 36 minutes of work. He then uses that 3 nuyen to buy a hamburger that cost you 2 nuyen to make. You've just paid the guy 2 nuyen for 36 minutes of work, in essence. The corporation must always pay the cost of the resources that its employees buy from it. It does not get that cost back, unlike when outside people buy from it. The real cost of employee salaries in a closed corporate economy where they can't buy from anyone else is thus equal to the actual cost of the goods purchased.

Thus, cost for a salaried employee who can be expected to buy some corp goods equals (Actual Cost of Corp Goods Purchased) + (Money not spent on corp Goods).

And you always need metahuman managment, even when supervising metahuman employees, so that really doesn't change anything.
raggedhalo
Educated people are generally more productive. Corps like productive. Similarly, happy people are generally more productive, which is why the corps don't just step on everyone's neck.

Education is also a key aspirational goal for the underclass (cf. Orkland!) and promotes freedom. So it's not like there's not a market for education; Shadowrun economics therefore make it a bit of a no-brainer as to why education still operates.

Also, drones/skillsofters aren't creative. They can only follow very clear instructions.

Finally, corporate domination (at least in my view of Shadowrun) isn't absolute; it's pervasive, certainly, but it's not like they're the only game in town. There are plenty of employers without extraterritoriality.

Plus, y'know, people object to being viewed solely as economic units.
Cain
QUOTE
Actually, that assumes that the employee is paying full price, no more than what any other customer would pay. It also assumes that the corp is marking up its soyburger value meals by 50%, which is a rather high markup which is certain to be driven lower by market forces.

When we're talking fast food, I really doubt that a high markup is a big deal. I did some research, and McDonalds only pays something like 18 cents per 21 ounce soda, including the price of the cup, lid, and straw. Prices vary from store to store, but the last McDonalds I was in charged $1.57 per regular soda. That's a substantial markup, but people pay it all the time. (And don't say "labor cost"; every McDonald's I've been to recently is self-serve on beverages.)

QUOTE
Lets say you pay a guy 3 nuyen for 36 minutes of work. He then uses that 3 nuyen to buy a hamburger that cost you 2 nuyen to make. You've just paid the guy 2 nuyen for 36 minutes of work, in essence. The corporation must always pay the cost of the resources that its employees buy for it. It does not get that cost back, unlike when outside people buy from it. The real cost of employee salaries in a closed corporate economy where they can't buy from anyone else is thus equal to the actual cost of the goods purchased.

I see where you're coming from, but you forgot to add in material costs. Let's say that out of that 3 nuyen soyburger, 1 nuyen is cost, 1 nuyen is labor, and the last is profit. When the guy buys the burger, you've just paid him 1 nuyen.gif for an hour's work. And that nuyen is likely to be recirculated back into the corporate coffers. Entropy means some of it will escape outside the company; but outsiders buying products should more than even that out, if the company is making money.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 16 2008, 02:19 PM) *
I see where you're coming from, but you forgot to add in material costs. Let's say that out of that 3 nuyen soyburger, 1 nuyen is cost, 1 nuyen is labor, and the last is profit. When the guy buys the burger, you've just paid him 1 nuyen.gif for an hour's work. And that nuyen is likely to be recirculated back into the corporate coffers. Entropy means some of it will escape outside the company; but outsiders buying products should more than even that out, if the company is making money.


But we're not just talking about the guys flipping burgers buying soyburgers. We're also talking about the guys working in the company coal mine buying soy burgers and the guys driving steel to build the company railroads buying soyburgers.

Entropy does not mean that some of it will escape outside the company. Entropy means that some of it will be totally unusable, period. No one will be able to use it. Entropy is a measure of waste, whether it be waste energy or waste money. And once it is wasted it is gone forever.
Shiloh
QUOTE (raverbane @ Sep 16 2008, 03:27 AM) *
Yea, corps luv the indentured worker approach over the auto-drone worker in my game.

The corp employees you (paying you said wage)

You pay the corp rent.
You buy the corp's recreational goodies.
You buy the corp's food.
You pay to ride the corp's public transportation or pay to lease a car from the corp..


You didn't mention that the cost for the above, including the repayments on your skillwires comes to a few nuyen a month more than "said wage", unless you use only the cheapest flavours on your soy and keep the heating low in winter. But your corporate account has a good line of credit, so don't worry about that: buy your kid their birthday presents, you've got all year to pay it off.
BRodda
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 15 2008, 09:56 PM) *
If they live on corp property and get paid in corp scrip, yeah. If they work at Stuffer Shack and live in a crappy Seattle apartment, then no because the corp can not control where they spend. A Burger Flipper Gets paid 5.15 an hour. Over a year that's 45,115 nuyen. They also work in three shifts and if one fails to show up then you've got a choice between offering time and a half to the one who should be going home or or having an empty position.

Combat drones cost 5,000 nuyen. These are highly sophisticated machines that shoot people. A device that moves a spatula up and down, I would imagine, costs significantly less. Lets say our burger drone costs 3,000 and that it can do everything required to make a burger. It uses electricity but it also doesn't need air conditioning, so that's a push. If it only lasts for a year then you've saved 42,115 nuyen per position.

And even in a corporate controled envirement there is the issue of actual cost of the employee vs actual productivity of the employee drones work faster and they work more efficiency, and though employees pay for your resources it is still true that they're using your resources. If you replace all of our people with robots that can be the same work in half the time, you not only increase your productivity but you can turn their crappy low-rent living spaces into posh condos and make a small fortune on them.


Problem is that people buy products, and people like other people. If a company completely cut out their (meta)human workers the backlash of public opinion would run them out of business very quickly. If KFC replaced every worker with drones think of what would happen, the news stories about the corp maximizing profits at the cost of the worker, the faces of the unemployed, the "Could you be replaced by a drone?" stories, and of course the scare tactics of showing a hacker taking over the drone and poisoning every one at the restaurant.

Watch that stock price crash into the gutter. There are tons of jobs right now that we could replace with robots; but you can't because of worker strikes and public opinion. Look at what happened to the auto industry when they started using robots. They do use a lot of them, but they still have humans doing jobs that could be easily automated.

In 2070 I think that a lot of the jobs that people never see or interact with are now done by drones, but not all of them.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (BRodda @ Sep 16 2008, 03:08 PM) *
Problem is that people buy products, and people like other people. If a company completely cut out their (meta)human workers the backlash of public opinion would run them out of business very quickly. If KFC replaced every worker with drones think of what would happen, the news stories about the corp maximizing profits at the cost of the worker, the faces of the unemployed, the "Could you be replaced by a drone?" stories, and of course the scare tactics of showing a hacker taking over the drone and poisoning every one at the restaurant.

Watch that stock price crash into the gutter. There are tons of jobs right now that we could replace with robots; but you can't because of worker strikes and public opinion. Look at what happened to the auto industry when they started using robots. They do use a lot of them, but they still have humans doing jobs that could be easily automated.

In 2070 I think that a lot of the jobs that people never see or interact with are now done by drones, but not all of them.


Yes, that's exactly why Wal-Mart went Bankrupt

No, wait.

People like people, but people love low prices.
Cain
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 16 2008, 10:26 AM) *
But we're not just talking about the guys flipping burgers buying soyburgers. We're also talking about the guys working in the company coal mine buying soy burgers and the guys driving steel to build the company railroads buying soyburgers.

Entropy does not mean that some of it will escape outside the company. Entropy means that some of it will be totally unusable, period. No one will be able to use it. Entropy is a measure of waste, whether it be waste energy or waste money. And once it is wasted it is gone forever.

Right there's the problem. Money can be created from nothingness and destroyed to nonexistence, something that cannot happen to energy or matter. It's all about perceptions of value. The economic entropy metaphor is a good one, but it only goes so far. The fact is, we can account for every cent the guy spends; it's never really "lost to oblivion" unless some very specific things happen.

Money is all about perception. When you go into a McDonalds, you see a soda for $1.57, and see a fair deal. McDonalds sees a huge profit. You perceive you're getting a good deal; McDonalds perceives it's getting a good deal, and the shareholders percevie themselves getting a good deal. Everyone wins, in theory.
BRodda
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 16 2008, 03:46 PM) *
Yes, that's exactly why Wal-Mart went Bankrupt

No, wait.


Wal-Mart is a great example actually. You go to a Wal-Mart store and you have a greeter at the door. You have people working the cash register and restocking the shelves. Where there are customers there are human workers. Especially that person at the door saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart."

You ever been inside a Wal-Mart distribution center? I have. Robots everywhere. Wal-Mart has one of the most advanced automated distribution systems and warehouse inventory systems in the world. It was one of the reasons Wal-Mart was trying to force RFID tracking chips to be put into every product a few years ago. Shipments come in, get scanned and the pallets are moved by automated forklifts to a designated area. As the individual stores make sales the inventory levels are tracked and the system determines what needs to be sent in the next shipment. The system then pulls what needs to be sent and loads it over by the shipping bays for the trucks to deliver to the stores. The warehouse I was in was massive and I think the entire place had maybe 20-30 people in it.
Cain
Yes, but Wal-Mart also quietly abandoned their idea to automate their stores with RFID tags. I'm not sure why, but I think it's because the machines are still too easily fooled.
JudgementLoaf
In the games I have run, both interpretations I have seen presented here exist together. Drone shops would be common: the same way that some robots have started to creep into any number of professions today. Heck, a good number of supermarkets are using low grade robots even now. But, there are a number of establishments that will keep the metahuman factor on as a point of style or just because of the local economy. Ritzier places will more than likely keep their metahuman waitstaff on because of the "service" factor. Having a face to talk to can be a selling point. Areas too poor to afford drones will keep people because they can negotiate their wage down to almost nothing, and the work has to be done somehow. Adaptability will also keep metahumans employed in more complex tasks as well. Perhaps not always in flipping burgers, but whenever multiple factors need to be dynamically evaluated, you still can't beat a meta. I expect however, that more mundane, repetitive and dangerous jobs would become drone automated. Cleaning, flipping burgers, or working in environments too extreme for metas will always keep the drones employed. A good rule of the thumb I have used in the past has been to evaluate the job that needs to be done, and the client base its aimed at. If the people wanting the job done would be willing to pay more for a meta, it will be done by a metahuman. For jobs with a high chance of injury, or where the client dosen't care who is doing the job, its likely to be a robot.
hyzmarca
Wall mart is moving towards automated checkout. Most stores employ fewer cashiers than before but has several always-open automated checkout lanes, which actually speeds things up quite a bit. Some people stick to human-assisted checkout, but those who are comfortable with the system use the automated checkout because it is faster.

Of course, the greeters also do double-duty. They're the last line of defense against shoplifters, and some are usually employed to check for receipts, since Wal-Mart's size makes it fairly easy to just grab something and stuff it in a bag.
CanRay
One thing no Drone can ever do...

Make a decent cup of tea!

I mean, isn't that how Dues was going to be shut down? Forced to make a decent cuppa?
Earlydawn
To put it simply, when corporate citizen-employees realize that their job can be automated if they cause socio-economic problems within the mega's structure, you can pay them anything. Asia-syndrome to the max. Don't like it? Tough, you're under a bulletproof contract from the company that incidentally issued you a social security number. They also own almost everything you "lease" from them, and the little money you've managed to pull together only maintains a fraction of its value outside of the company. Oh, and even if you leave, you already contracted out your kids before they were born so you could afford those skillwires that they required you to lease so you could keep your job.

Yep, people are much cheaper.
Gast
Although hyzmarca's point is valid. Assuming you have 5-6 drones instead of 4 workers and one supervisor with skillwires 2-3 and the correct B/R softs - how cheap would that be by now? I could imagine that in SR 4 it would approach or even have reached a level where humans just can't compete anymore, even in the most unqualified categories. I'll try to do the math the next days, when I need a rest from learning.
Cain
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 16 2008, 01:21 PM) *
Wall mart is moving towards automated checkout. Most stores employ fewer cashiers than before but has several always-open automated checkout lanes, which actually speeds things up quite a bit. Some people stick to human-assisted checkout, but those who are comfortable with the system use the automated checkout because it is faster.

Of course, the greeters also do double-duty. They're the last line of defense against shoplifters, and some are usually employed to check for receipts, since Wal-Mart's size makes it fairly easy to just grab something and stuff it in a bag.

They were moving towards automated checkout, but have since abandoned that idea. They went as far as automated checkout lanes, but that's as far as they got. Wal-Mart, being what it is, doesn't have to worry about unions or organized labor, so they didn't stop because it would put people out of work. No, they deliberately and consciously chose to abandon RFID tags for a fully automated checkout. Why? Not sure, since I'm not a Wal-Mart shareholder. But here is one article on it. It's just one article, and I haven't read it fully, so I can't vouch for its accuracy. But it seems to be a decent starting point.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 16 2008, 04:00 PM) *
Right there's the problem. Money can be created from nothingness and destroyed to nonexistence, something that cannot happen to energy or matter. It's all about perceptions of value. The economic entropy metaphor is a good one, but it only goes so far. The fact is, we can account for every cent the guy spends; it's never really "lost to oblivion" unless some very specific things happen.

Money is all about perception. When you go into a McDonalds, you see a soda for $1.57, and see a fair deal. McDonalds sees a huge profit. You perceive you're getting a good deal; McDonalds perceives it's getting a good deal, and the shareholders percevie themselves getting a good deal. Everyone wins, in theory.



Actually, the value of money is about resources. And resources can be used up. If those resources aren't replenished, the value of money goes down, it takes more to buy the same amount of stuff. Inflation. Replenishing resources costs resources, which are generally represented by money.

Money is useful only in that it is an abstract representation of available resources. It's value does fluctuate with consumer confidence and other things, but the truth is that these fluctuations even out. Bubbles burst and confidence-induced recessions end.
Cain
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 16 2008, 05:13 PM) *
Actually, the value of money is about resources. And resources can be used up. If those resources aren't replenished, the value of money goes down, it takes more to buy the same amount of stuff. Inflation. Replenishing resources costs resources, which are generally represented by money.

Money is useful only in that it is an abstract representation of available resources. It's value does fluctuate with consumer confidence and other things, but the truth is that these fluctuations even out. Bubbles burst and confidence-induced recessions end.

That's a bit optimistic, although you are correct, as far as it goes. The problem is that there's plenty of things that could happen to change the perceived value of things, and some markets never even out without massive interference. For example, oil prices are high because crude is relatively scarce. However, for countries who peg their currency to oil prices (an "Oil Standard"), their buying power just went up.

As far as bubbles and recessions go, we're in the middle of the biggest Wall Street shakeup since the Depression. We didn't come out of the Depression without a lot of Keynesian economics (read: Massive government interference). We're staving off this one, if barely, by more massive government interference. For example, I expect the government will bail out AIG, and possibly Washington Mutual, in the near future. The lassiez-faire economic strategy never did work.

Oh, one more thing, to bring things back on topic. People who can analyze economic trends will still be needed in 2070. A lot of white-collar jobs cannot be replaced by machines, and the US is already moving more towards an information-based economy, instead of an industry-based one. While a lot of jobs can be replaced by drones, the ones that can't will require people to be able to read and think.
Earlydawn
QUOTE (Gast @ Sep 16 2008, 06:49 PM) *
Although hyzmarca's point is valid. Assuming you have 5-6 drones instead of 4 workers and one supervisor with skillwires 2-3 and the correct B/R softs - how cheap would that be by now? I could imagine that in SR 4 it would approach or even have reached a level where humans just can't compete anymore, even in the most unqualified categories. I'll try to do the math the next days, when I need a rest from learning.
This line of thinking strikes me as faulty for a couple reasons. First of all, remember that most corporations of interest can be considered, in practical terms, politically sovereign. They're not obligated to pay a minimum wage, which is only compounded by the problem that they have an internal economy that's basically independent of the areas that their holdings physically exist in. That independence allows for a mega to pay a wage that's only livable within the company's economy. Now add in the twist of megacorps being able to issue SINs. Now you can hire from the Barrens, which means you can run your operation like modern day China, or India - don't like it? Get the hell out and return to hunting devil rats so you don't starve. You round this all out nicely by requiring product and service purchase from the company to move upward (skillwires, linguasofts, a better commlink..), and you have an eternally indentured blue-collar workforce that makes up ninety-eight percent of your company. Heck, you might even be able to turn a profit off of them. Grunt work is probably the cheapest and most efficient asset that the megas own.
Cain
To maintain productivity, corps are obliged to pay a wage that affords enough creature comforts to keep people just barely satisfied. Bread and circuses, remember? As long as people can afford both, they'll be satisfied.
Gast
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Sep 17 2008, 01:23 AM) *
This line of thinking strikes me as faulty for a couple reasons. First of all, remember that most corporations of interest can be considered, in practical terms, politically sovereign. They're not obligated to pay a minimum wage, which is only compounded by the problem that they have an internal economy that's basically independent of the areas that their holdings physically exist in.


True, but the question is, could an investment into drones be so cheap that if you paid the same to a worker, not even the bare living essentials can be covered? Electricity is cheaper than food.
Wesley Street
Power is cheaper than good food in a household but when it comes to commercial facilities operating hundreds or thousands of automated heavy machines, energy consumption is enormous. If a corporation wanted to feed its employees McDonald's grade food (good enough to keep you going but damaging in the long term) that cost will be much less than the electric bill.
jago668
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 16 2008, 03:21 PM) *
Of course, the greeters also do double-duty. They're the last line of defense against shoplifters, and some are usually employed to check for receipts, since Wal-Mart's size makes it fairly easy to just grab something and stuff it in a bag.


Off topic from the main point, but just thought I would comment on this.

You don't have to stop if they ask to see your receipt. At that point all they can do to stop you is accuse you of shoplifting. Considering that they haven't actually witnessed anything, so have no proof, this a very big no no. Can you say "Hello lawsuit."

In order to get an airtight shoplifting conviction you need to observe the person get the item from your shelf, and conceal it (or not if they just walk out with it). Then you need to maintain constant surveillance of the person so you can be 100% sure they still have it on them. Last you wait for them to exit the store then do your stop. While some states (Texas I know for sure) have a willful concealment law. If you get a lenient judge the person can claim they were going to pay for it before walking out, and the judge will let them go. So you wait for them to leave before stopping them since at that point they have given up every oppurtunity to pay or abandon the merchandise.

So since the greeter hasn't seen you conceal anything and doesn't have a clue what you even have, much less what might be stolen or not. No they aren't going to take the chance. You will notice that a good many stores have employees walk large items out, such as tvs, furniture, etc. That way the greater won't be tempted to stop someone over a big value item. Those little inventory control tags, the magnetic ones that set off the door alarm. That is not a reason to stop someone. You could have one stuck on your shoe, or from an item from another store.

I wouldn't try it if a cop asks you to stop, since I'm not sure what the law says about them. However store greeters, cashiers, clerks, managers, etc feel free to keep on walking.
sunnyside
On the issue in the OP.

There is still a lot of inequality of educated positions in the SR world in large part due to the fact that much of the SR world has serious issues. Wars, rebellions, and general instability haunt much of Africa, Asia, South America, the middle east, and even sections of Europe and north America.

Which means even if a great mind does arise in, say, a Chinese warzone, they aren't going to get a cream of the crop type job there. They're going to have to get tucked away in some megacorps secure facility in some secure territory.

Also in areas with high cost of living the people tend to be driven to get higher educations and thus higher paying jobs. Actually a lot of people doing that tends to be why the cost of living is so high in the first place. Bringing in highly paid and educated people from other countries only exacerbates this.

Falconer
I think the biggest problem comes down to this... economic entropy and all is nothing but a fancy way of saying... this only works until the resources run out. Assuming that in SR's timeframe most things are run off a renewable context (heavy use of renewable resources, highly efficient embedded devices, nanotech makes recycling a huge affair...). So I think we can write that off as a non-issue... especially w/ things expanding to the solar system.

As far as the other comments... in Battletech, the 'captive' merc groups were commonly a victim of something called 'the company store'. Basically they'd get hired, but then they'd have to keep paying their employers for all sorts of things until they owed more than they made. They then became captive unless they went rogue and became pirates. I'd suggest anyone interested also lookup the term 'company town' and 'company store'. Coal mines of old for example commonly owned the entire town their miners lived in.

For those who remember their economics... one of the biggest revolutions in industrial economics was when Ford started paying his employees a good wage. Suddenly his employees could and would buy the cars which made the industry explode and it grew his market, and marketshare, and it led to Ford absolutely dominating the automotive industry for years. Remember, another part of this is economies of scale, the bigger you are, the more efficiently you can theoretically do things. Also, in the corporate world... growth rates are important... you need to grow your revenues, grow your market, and increase market share. And what's important there, is you need to do that faster than your competitors or you'll never make the big leagues.

Frankly... going all drones leads eventually to nihilism as best I can tell.
ImmoralSalvage
on an bit of a side note the song 16 tons deals with the concept of the company store

"You load sixteen tons, what do ya get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store "

Which I am sure how more then a few wages laves feel

also if you wanted to look at another example look up sharecropper

The sharecropper was required to purchase seed, tools and fertilizer, as well as food and clothing, medical bills, renting a mule, renting a plow, where all done on credit system at the plantation store. When the harvest came, the sharecrop farmer would harvest the whole crop and sell his or her portion to the planter at a fixed price. By the time all the debts owed and proceeds made were tallied up the farmer was lucky to break even. This system was how the plantation survived after the civil war because many Black in the south where scared to leave the only place they had ever know.

And yet another example of this is the fur trades in the west when they got together for there once a year selling of their furs they would be in the same boat.

As we can see there is a rich history of screwing over people like this.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 18 2008, 07:48 PM) *
Frankly... going all drones leads eventually to nihilism as best I can tell.


But it also greatly increases the number of Midwestern autoworkers a predatory Japanese company can lay off.
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