Full Version: Heavy Weapons
in SR3 you haven´t been able to fire heavy weapons "out of the hand". I didn´t find an equal restricion in SR4. Has this been cancelled or did I just overread it?
Heavy weapons have double recoil, and there are vehicle only weapons, but thats it.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 29 2008, 02:55 PM) 
Heavy weapons have double recoil, and there are vehicle only weapons, but thats it.
Yup how it works now it that generally without some pretty heavy recoil compensation(which often comes from a gyro-mount or a bi/tri-pod) your recoil will make hitting things quite difficult.
Unless you use a panther cannon, SS so no recoil.
Assault Cannons have their own rules; Body 8+ and Strength 8+ can fire them without a mount, but must resist damage equal to the weapons Power (Damage). Body or Strength under 8, & you cannot use them without a mount.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 29 2008, 01:38 PM)
Assault Cannons have their own rules; Body 8+ and Strength 8+ can fire them without a mount, but must resist damage equal to the weapons Power (Damage). Body or Strength under 8, & you cannot use them without a mount.
Did you forget to mention that this is an optional rule? And what happened to quoting your source? Arsenal, 162 for the rule he was referencing.
And thats not just for assault rifles, thats for heavy weapons period. And its half the power.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 29 2008, 12:45 PM)
Did you forget to mention that this is an optional rule? And what happened to quoting your source? Arsenal, 162 for the rule he was referencing.
And that's not just for assault cannons, that's for heavy weapons period. And its half the power.
And that's not just for assault cannons, that's for heavy weapons period. And its half the power.
Fixed it for you.
Ah, yeah, thats what I get for letting my fingers decide what to type.
Who are we kidding, it's all about the Otomo going in Rambo style literally. A White Night's blazing on each arm w/ the underbarrel grenade launchers popping off now and then (they get the double recoil penalty also, and they're all fired using heavy weapons).
Bod6, gas5... 11 points recoil comp... it's all good :).
But back to OP... MG's count as heavy weapons... no one argues you can't fire them out of hand. In fact, people were trained to fire them from the hip going back a ways (even to WW2 where using a Browning .30cal from the hip is in training films). Also, again not only do MG's fall under heavy weapons, so do grenade launchers... don't tell all those runners w/ their pet ares alpha that they can't fire their GL's w/o a mount!
Bod6, gas5... 11 points recoil comp... it's all good :).
But back to OP... MG's count as heavy weapons... no one argues you can't fire them out of hand. In fact, people were trained to fire them from the hip going back a ways (even to WW2 where using a Browning .30cal from the hip is in training films). Also, again not only do MG's fall under heavy weapons, so do grenade launchers... don't tell all those runners w/ their pet ares alpha that they can't fire their GL's w/o a mount!
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 29 2008, 04:14 PM)
But back to OP... MG's count as heavy weapons... no one argues you can't fire them out of hand. In fact, people were trained to fire them from the hip going back a ways (even to WW2 where using a Browning .30cal from the hip is in training films). Also, again not only do MG's fall under heavy weapons, so do grenade launchers...don't tell all those runners w/ their pet Ares Alpha that they can't fire their GLs w/o a mount!
Which is why my "Heavy Weapons" skill starts at crew-served weapons weapons rather than "it usually comes with an attached bipod as a standard accessory". Basically, if it's not usable effectively by a single person without a full-on mount or tripod, you're in HW land, IMO.
Pipps that's silly, stupid and arbitrary. There's no rule in SR4 I've seen yet which stops you from using those weapons or calls for a different definition than that in the main book, which was the answer to the OP's question. Another way to view it is... many people are trained in small arms, but only those w/ military (especially infantry) backgrounds are trained in the use of heavy weapons. (MG's, GL's, missile/RPG, etc....). "Weapons bigger than an assault rifle..." is how the book calls it and it makes a lot of sense and produces a good catchall skill which isn't in the firearms group.
The point of that portion you quoted... was THAT THE M1919 .30 CAL BROWNING WAS A CREW SERVED WEAPON NORMALLY MOUNTED ON A BIPOD OR TRIPOD!!! (emphasis needed, as were the german infantry MG's), But that with proper training it could be used on the move and for room clearing operations. NEWS FLASH, most crew served weapons can be operated just fine w/ a single person. The purpose of the crew is primarily to carry extra ammo, provide a backup gunner, spread the load out and reduce risk in other words. But this is SR... where we use drones to carry extra ammo and parts, or just mount the heavy weapon on the drone. Then we fall into the other problem with your post, all vehicle mounted weapons fall under another skill... Gunnery, even the ones which are manually aimed and fired, such as a MG mounted on a pintle in a jeep.
All you've done w/ that careless & stupid definition is remove MG's, GL's, missile/RPG's, and AC's from heavy weapons leaving it with.... nothing! I'm guessing that it's because you'd rather they fall under skills in the firearms group so you don't have to actually train heavy weapons. Right now, HW pretty much encompasses all the belt-fed guns and all the man portable explosive weaponry. You take that away and you might as well just train archery (lord knows a trollbow w/ the 8str/8bod requirement above is probably cheaper and preferable to the panther cannon right now).
The point of that portion you quoted... was THAT THE M1919 .30 CAL BROWNING WAS A CREW SERVED WEAPON NORMALLY MOUNTED ON A BIPOD OR TRIPOD!!! (emphasis needed, as were the german infantry MG's), But that with proper training it could be used on the move and for room clearing operations. NEWS FLASH, most crew served weapons can be operated just fine w/ a single person. The purpose of the crew is primarily to carry extra ammo, provide a backup gunner, spread the load out and reduce risk in other words. But this is SR... where we use drones to carry extra ammo and parts, or just mount the heavy weapon on the drone. Then we fall into the other problem with your post, all vehicle mounted weapons fall under another skill... Gunnery, even the ones which are manually aimed and fired, such as a MG mounted on a pintle in a jeep.
All you've done w/ that careless & stupid definition is remove MG's, GL's, missile/RPG's, and AC's from heavy weapons leaving it with.... nothing! I'm guessing that it's because you'd rather they fall under skills in the firearms group so you don't have to actually train heavy weapons. Right now, HW pretty much encompasses all the belt-fed guns and all the man portable explosive weaponry. You take that away and you might as well just train archery (lord knows a trollbow w/ the 8str/8bod requirement above is probably cheaper and preferable to the panther cannon right now).
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 29 2008, 10:40 PM)
Phipps that's silly, stupid and arbitrary. There's no rule in SR4 I've seen yet which stops you from using those weapons or calls for a different definition than that in the main book, which was the answer to the OP's question. Another way to view it is... many people are trained in small arms, but only those w/ military (especially infantry) backgrounds are trained in the use of heavy weapons. (MG's, GL's, missile/RPG, etc....). "Weapons bigger than an assault rifle..." is how the book calls it and it makes a lot of sense and produces a good catchall skill which isn't in the firearms group.
The point of that portion you quoted... was THAT THE M1919 .30 CAL BROWNING WAS A CREW SERVED WEAPON NORMALLY MOUNTED ON A BIPOD OR TRIPOD!!! (emphasis needed, as were the german infantry MG's), But that with proper training it could be used on the move and for room clearing operations. NEWS FLASH, most crew served weapons can be operated just fine w/ a single person. The purpose of the crew is primarily to carry extra ammo, provide a backup gunner, spread the load out and reduce risk in other words. But this is SR... where we use drones to carry extra ammo and parts, or just mount the heavy weapon on the drone. Then we fall into the other problem with your post, all vehicle mounted weapons fall under another skill... Gunnery, even the ones which are manually aimed and fired, such as a MG mounted on a pintle in a jeep.
All you've done w/ that careless & stupid definition is remove MG's, GL's, missile/RPG's, and AC's from heavy weapons leaving it with.... nothing! I'm guessing that it's because you'd rather they fall under skills in the firearms group so you don't have to actually train heavy weapons. Right now, HW pretty much encompasses all the belt-fed guns and all the man portable explosive weaponry. You take that away and you might as well just train archery (lord knows a trollbow w/ the 8str/8bod requirement above is probably cheaper and preferable to the panther cannon right now).
The point of that portion you quoted... was THAT THE M1919 .30 CAL BROWNING WAS A CREW SERVED WEAPON NORMALLY MOUNTED ON A BIPOD OR TRIPOD!!! (emphasis needed, as were the german infantry MG's), But that with proper training it could be used on the move and for room clearing operations. NEWS FLASH, most crew served weapons can be operated just fine w/ a single person. The purpose of the crew is primarily to carry extra ammo, provide a backup gunner, spread the load out and reduce risk in other words. But this is SR... where we use drones to carry extra ammo and parts, or just mount the heavy weapon on the drone. Then we fall into the other problem with your post, all vehicle mounted weapons fall under another skill... Gunnery, even the ones which are manually aimed and fired, such as a MG mounted on a pintle in a jeep.
All you've done w/ that careless & stupid definition is remove MG's, GL's, missile/RPG's, and AC's from heavy weapons leaving it with.... nothing! I'm guessing that it's because you'd rather they fall under skills in the firearms group so you don't have to actually train heavy weapons. Right now, HW pretty much encompasses all the belt-fed guns and all the man portable explosive weaponry. You take that away and you might as well just train archery (lord knows a trollbow w/ the 8str/8bod requirement above is probably cheaper and preferable to the panther cannon right now).
Well, perhaps "effectively" should have been "efficiently" in my original comment.
As for the rest of it, there is a large difference between a modern LMG with rifle stock, magazine well for backup, and a bipod and a 1919A4 WWII vintage belt-only GPMG ("light" was a mindset more than a reality back then). The fact that many of the new LMGs (or perhaps more correctly, Sustained Fire Rifles) aren't even belt fed anymore means that they're a lot closer to an AR with a heavy barrel and bipod than the ol' Ma-Deuce on the top of a Hummer-equivalent.
Furthermore, I have exactly zero military experience and I was able to fire my buddy's HK21 just dandy, thanks. It's feed is a bit different but it's far from impossible to pick it up when you have a bit of rifle experience to fall back onto. I was also reasonably accurate for an untrained idiot once I got used to the fire rate with 5-6 round bursts hitting man-sized targets with multiple rounds at 300m more often than not. Say, 30 minutes or so of practice total.
A machinegun isn't some magically incomprehensible "Holy Shit! I can't possibly use use this thing at all because I've only fired ARs in the past!" weapon, dude.
My main issue with the "Heavy Weapons" skill is that it covers a ton of weapons from GLs to Artillery. Sorry, but that's a bit of a stretch for this kid. I also have an issue with any vehicle mounted weapon being used with "Gunnery" from some ganger duct taping an AR to a roll bar of a beater Toyota to an Ares electro-kinetic tank cannon.
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 30 2008, 07:58 AM)
My main issue with the "Heavy Weapons" skill is that it covers a ton of weapons from GLs to Artillery. Sorry, but that's a bit of a stretch for this kid. I also have an issue with any vehicle mounted weapon being used with "Gunnery" from some ganger duct taping an AR to a roll bar of a beater Toyota to an Ares electro-kinetic tank cannon.
Rather than redefining the heavy weapons skill to be pointless, why don't you split those skills up in your game? Break heavy weapons into, machine guns, grenade launchers, artillery, assault cannons. and Gunnery to some skills that make sense for you. Make the heavy weapons/gunnery the skill groups for those skills, and go on your merry way.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 30 2008, 07:04 AM)
Rather than redefining the heavy weapons skill to be pointless, why don't you split those skills up in your game? Break heavy weapons into, machine guns, grenade launchers, artillery, assault cannons. and Gunnery to some skills that make sense for you. Make the heavy weapons/gunnery the skill groups for those skills, and go on your merry way.
Part of it is the fact that modern single-shot GLs aren't really all that different than a rifle. Sure it lobs a bit more than a rifle but the modern sighting equipment is pretty damn spiffy in making even untrained wankers look like real pros. Check out FNs new (as of 6-7 years ago) GL system on the F2000 as an excellent example of this lase, aim, fire technology for a lot less money than the now-defunct OICW project. Another example is the Mark 19 which is just a HV 40mm grenade version of the Ma-Deuce so there is good cross-training for both if you've used one of them for any duration.
I just think that they're trying too hard to make skill separate when it's more of a background thing than a true skill thing. Instead of "skill for this, skill for that" I just ask, "Ok, where did your scumbag streetrat ganger get GL training? Yeah, right..." You give me a reason why they would have some familiarity that's not obviously out your ass and I'm pretty cool with it.
And, again, you're just eliminating a skill. By that logic:
Shotguns aren't that different from rifles either. So lets put those together. And automatics and semi-autos aren't that different, especially if you're only shooting in single shot, so lets lump pistols and automatics together cause of that. Oh, and clubs and swords aren't that different, so lets put those together.
What you want to do in your game is fine and up to you, but there is a reason there are distinctions made in the rules for different weapons types.
Shotguns aren't that different from rifles either. So lets put those together. And automatics and semi-autos aren't that different, especially if you're only shooting in single shot, so lets lump pistols and automatics together cause of that. Oh, and clubs and swords aren't that different, so lets put those together.
What you want to do in your game is fine and up to you, but there is a reason there are distinctions made in the rules for different weapons types.
On YouTube right now is a vid of a Marine (might be Army) in Iraq that's dual-wielding MGs and seems to do just fine, though it's in a training environment.
If you really want some fun with a big weapon but don't like a lot of recoil then get the "Strobe Light that Kills People" ™. Arsenal, pg. 55-ish. Ares MP Laser III. Large firing selection (full auto), Small Firing Selection (Burst Fire), Integrated Smartlink. I think you have 1 more mod slot open, but wha-evah. The availablitiy of that gun is 18F (unchanged by mods), and the price is 36,300 nuyen.
With the Restricted Gear positive quality, you can afford it at chargen for roughly 13 BP or so. And it's important to note that laser weapons suffer no recoil.
Enjoy Neraph ™ Brand "Strobe Light that Kills People" ™.
If you really want some fun with a big weapon but don't like a lot of recoil then get the "Strobe Light that Kills People" ™. Arsenal, pg. 55-ish. Ares MP Laser III. Large firing selection (full auto), Small Firing Selection (Burst Fire), Integrated Smartlink. I think you have 1 more mod slot open, but wha-evah. The availablitiy of that gun is 18F (unchanged by mods), and the price is 36,300 nuyen.
With the Restricted Gear positive quality, you can afford it at chargen for roughly 13 BP or so. And it's important to note that laser weapons suffer no recoil.
Enjoy Neraph ™ Brand "Strobe Light that Kills People" ™.
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