A while back, when I was playing a hacker in a campaign run by a friend, and he couldn't justify how logic didn't play a bigger part in the matrix skillset (using skill+program rating instead of attribute+skill). His justification was that hackers are inherently smart and a smarter hacker would be better at doing his thing. The best I could offer was that in 2070, regardless of how smart the user is, the program itself is so sophisticated that it takes care of any intelligence issues and the user's skill in manipulating it plays more of a part than the user's intellect. Regardless, big debate later, he wanted to use the optional rule in Unwired about switching all the tests to attribute+skill with the hit limit being the programs rating. I argued for keeping the rules the same saying that if other players wanted to read into the material and felt like learning more hacking, the RAW would at least be reference to everyone in the group who wasn't a rule monger like the GM and I. Long discussion later, we agreed to house rule.

Here it is:

Much like Comm's system rating is limited by its Response rating, and much like a program's rating is limited by system, we agreed that a program's rating is limited by the user's logic. This accounts for a lot of things such as easier to use (and lower rated) programs having simpler interfaces don't allow much altering of parameters to run. They more or less have a "Go" button. Harder to use programs allow lots of tweaking and altering to the essential program through menus or on the highest level, alterations to the code, but unless there is extensive knowledge of how to manipulate these, the user can't get much function out of these bells and whistles. Therefore, a relatively low logic user would be able to run a high program and still hit "Go," but wouldn't know what menus and settings to futz with to get a better job done. This was also a big fix to the script kiddy problem that was a big issue with any matrix discussion he and I had because it meant that any agent you commanded would only work as well as you could logically command it. Therefore, we no longer have the stupid logic 2 rich corp brat buying the best agents to trounce our starting hacker. His agent can only work as well as that logic 2 script kiddy can command (or write script for) him to work.

Aside from the other optional and additional rules we use from the core expansions, this is the only house rule I've ever used, and it seems to keep things well balanced and has played alright for the most part (and adds to the role playing when you have a hacker or rigger who is naturally by his/her stats smart and geeky as opposed to some fluke dumb low attributed hacker relying solely on his programs and hardware).

What do you guys think?

I think it works fairly well, but it would be nice to have a way to put an exceptional intelligence to work (Modified by bioware and possibly an improved natural attribute)

I compleatly agree that the idea that a complete moron can go head to head in hacking against an Einstein level genius just by spending a chunk of nuyen on some good programs. Even worse is the idea that the same good hacker would actually -lose- to the rich kid if the hacker is poor.

While I like how you've done it, it doesn't make alot of sense. All the things you talk about program limiting wise are much more things that would be based on your skill, not how outright smart you are.

It does give me an idea however. Tweek it just a little. Make it so that program rating is limited by skill, and you use logic + program. Skill isn't generally going to go above 6, but with proper wares logic can easily hit 7 or 8. Of course that makes specialization a bit useless... maybe have spesilization be a bonus to the overall roll as opposed to the skill. Yeah, I like that.

I'm trying to work on a way to get rid of programs entierly, or set them on a more have/don't have as opposed to 'how good is it'. Because lets face it, if your good at hacking, your going to make your own stuff to hack with, not buy it off someone else. If you suck at hacking your going to use some junk that someone else has put out (A good hacker is never going to put out their good codes, that just makes for more competition)

Logic + Skill = Dice Pool. Program Rating = Effect (where applicable) and limits maximum total of hits on a test. System/Response = Limits on programs and program ratings.

It works just fine for magic. I don't know why they didn't apply it to hacking.

I'd imagine because magic can get into the double digits for effect and programs are stuck at 6? Not a big problem at start, but later game can get annoying if everyone has massive dice pools but can never do better then 6 hits.

Edit: Otherwise yeah, I completely agree with you. No reason to make matrix suddenly ignore the Skill + attribute formula.

Perhaps programs could be in the lines of weapons and simply act as bonus dice pools like smartlink does.

What about higher rated programs that the hacker codes? In game, we come across higher rated programs used by important nodes and IC, like stuff listed in Unwired, so if the hacker wants to take the time to write his own programs at ratings higher than 6, I allow it. Heck, even if the character goes through the proper channels to acquire the said high rated program, if it's done properly, I'll allow it. Being that there isn't any real chart for availability on high rated programs, I generalize it that if a player can exploit a contact with a connection at least as high as the rating he is looking for, they can get it. Sure makes group contacts worth the BP spent in the beginning...


Yeah, that was a part of my friend's and my discussion that I left out to simplify things a bit. I argued that manipulation of a program is skill (the equivalent of experience and handling of said programs...) and not really based on logic. Hell, even learning things isn't really logic, but more based on intuition, and the book lays claim to this by making the players roll an intuition+skill test to see how long it takes the characters to bump a skill rating or learn a new skill in game time...


Like I said above, if a player has a character code a program or goes through the proper channels to acquire a wicked high rated program, I'll allow it. Would more or less get rid of the need to change the rule more.


That's why I let the players code their own programs as they wish. Most hackers would be making their own softwarez...

And while I agree that I am perplexed that this is the only skill set in the book that deviates from the rest of the system, as stated earlier, I try to keep my games as close to the RAW as possible for new players to always have reference to what is written.

I've also had a player suggest Logic + Skill + Program Rating = Dice Pool with the Threshold values increased. Effectively, the Program Rating just becomes a dice pool bonus.

Then point out that a real hacker will have enough use for Logic+Hardware and Logic+Software, and go without the houserule.

The script kiddie will at most have 12 dice without the option of edge. At that point, the hacker should have a base dp of 10, assuming Cracking 4, program 6, AR hacking, no hacking augmentations, no codeslinger quality, no specialisation. All other specialists may be fine at 12 dice, but for a hacker it is nothing to write home about.

Technically that makes your Logic the dice pool bonus.

Either way I just don't care for it. If I'm going to house rule something, I'd rather do it right than just smear some cheap spackle on the problem and call it a day. It makes sense for Logic and Skill to comprise your dice pool. It makes sense that you have to apply your own smarts to do the task, and it also makes sense that no matter how clever you are, you're only as good as the tools you have to do the job. Especially when it comes to something as static and preprogrammed as, well, a computer program. An intelligent opponent should always have the edge over a fully automated one and that's something that's really not represented at all in the Matrix rules. An IC/Agent 6 with rating 6 prorgrams is every bit as talented as a Skill 6 hacker is. While it should be close just to keep things interesting, the intelligent character should have the edge.

Sure, just throwing Logic into the dice pool would represent that as well as anything else, but how it represents it is pretty lame and leaves lots of little holes and imbalances elsewhere. Suddenly an intelligent player is significantly more powerful than IC/Agents, for example, with a 2 to 3 hit advantage in any equal confrontation. If you instead use a rule similar to the one I pointed out earlier, and then made the IC/Agent's rating the Skill and maybe the node's System the Attribute, you not only get a more fair confrontration but one that makes a lot more sense. At least in my opinion.

If you don't really care too much about things like that, however, and prefer the spackle approach, well... there's really no point in discussing it because there's nothing to truly discuss. You have a rule, it has lots of problems, it only sort of addresses the problem, but it's simple and you like it. Throw your spackle on and have fun with it. That's all that really matters.

Even simpler: Logic+Skill for metahumans, Rating+Program for Agents/IC. Programs still have to be present for metahumans, but rating doesn´t matter.

"Nice assistant you have there, Haxxor3, can´t figure out the steps on your own..."

If you give the agent/IC the use of a stat to stand in for Logic using one of the houserules, you can do it with the other to eliminate the 2-3 hit advantage you mention (I never intended to unbalance things - merely to have Logic add in). It keeps things balanced and is just another way of doing things. And it does give the 'big-ass-handfuls-of-dice' people something to smile about...

Yup, that was another major argument that I had for why script kiddy wasn't even a problem when he and I were discussing the house rule. If the hacker is smart, it's LOGIC + Software skill to code his own super programs, so a smart hacker creating his own shit is thoroughly represented in the rules. On top of VR, codeslinger, and specialization bonuses, the PC also has edge to toss into pools and will almost always by probability and statistics beat even the best script kiddy. Trust me, like it says in the subtext under the thread title, I don't even like using this house rule, it was the only way for the group to come to a consensus and move on and play. I argued for the RAW because they made perfect sense to me.

I am also a firm believer that houserules unbalance a game and are a lot like putting cheat codes into any videogame. Sure, a large majority of people will utilize them, but they are a cheap cop-out for those who largely can't play the game as is either because they suck skillwise, don't get it, don't have the time or patience, or don't like dying.

Your running on the assumption that the scrpitkiddy isn't a player.

By RAW a high logic gives you no benefit as a hacker. Sure, you can program your own stuff, but as a scriptkiddy you can just buy it. Both have access to the same qualities, so all bonuses there are a wash. High logic means a hacker can build his own hardware. Scriptkiddy can buy it.

What the problem here is that a 'true' hacker with logic 6 and a scriptkiddy with logic 1 are on exactly the same field. In fact the scriptkiddy wins out because he doesn't have to burn BP on logic, software, or hardware, which means I can give bonuses to edge and willpower to beat out a 'true' hacker. In other words I can build a hacker that is just as effective as any other for about 70BP less. Heck, I can make my gunbunny a top rated hacker by diverting a quality or two to hacker verities, and buying him some of the hacker ware. The only reason you don't generally see that is because most people feel that it is wrong on such a deep level.

It's true, but it hasn't come up in my game. The PCs stick to what their characters are more or less designed to do and respect each other's play styles and levels. We don't have our combat specialist stepping on the toes of our hacker, and we don't have our shaman killing all of our combat monkey's fodder. That's just good roleplaying.

That being said, there are always going to be those who exploit the rules to show others how awesome they are at ignoring context and being a dick. They are the ones who quickly show us that the rules aren't perfect and unfortunately, most of the time, the reason for revisions (either by creators or house rules). Take into account sports though. No sport has ever been created with it's current rule set intact. The general ideas and goals are there, but new rules have to be added to keep the players from exploiting the system, but we don't know how to fix these until they happen.

To use script kiddy exploits the rules to a player's advantage, but kills the spirit of the game.

That's why I never even compare character builds from the get go. The character build system isn't fair and balanced. There's so many ways to do something through money, warez, skills or qualities, that not everything is going to come out even in the end and worth the same, values and prices.

And that is all not a problem. Not since Unwired appeared. I must say that I love the fact that software gets outdated, can be registered, and more is such a wonderful way to keep the Hacker a hacker and Script Kiddies a bunch of idiots who occasionally get lucky.

Been reading a lot of hacking stuff because of my Technomancer lately. And some of the rules in Unwired are really neat.

Unwired is really great, and as player of a TM you will love it to death. And you will find mook dicepools even more laughable than true hackers.


The script kiddie will use an agent. That puts the ceiling at 12 dice, no edge. A threshold of 6 will already require multiple attempts to beat. A hacker will be much more efficient, because a good roll can always be enhanced by using edge to reroll misses.

Plus if you are somewhat efficiency-minded, you are at least rolling Hacking 4 (Exploit +2) + Exploit 5 + Hot-Sim bonus(+2), or 13 dice. Increase hacking skill to 6, install an encephalon 1, and you are standing at a solid 4 dice + edge use advantage. Not too shabby I´d say. And yeah, you are not running one agent less than the script kiddie, you just ensure success at the critical points.

A true hacker with low logic would be sad. But seeing that intuition is pretty important for matrix initiative, at least that one will be high. So you can claim the char has a "more intuitive" approach to coding. Would even be cool for a latent TM character.

While a low logic hacker is kind of sad, I've always reasoned that logic plays very little in the use and manipulation of the program. It's all about experience of use of like programs (skill) and program capability (rating). Logic is reserved for coding programs as governed by the software skill tests. I've come to terms with the fact that programs and software in 2070 have gotten so sophisticated, regardless of how intelligent the user is, the program is what does the work, not your brain.

The players in my game all voted for the optional rule in Unwired to use Attribute + Skill (hits limited by program rating), so completely ignore any use of this houserule from here on out.