One of my players has Safe Houses as a knowledge skill. At 4, I think. At first he said that with successes on his roll, he would know where one was. I said that if you knew where it was, it wouldn't be a safe house. Later on, he suggested that with this skill, he should know how to track one down. Like maybe he's heard that this bartender has a room upstairs of his bar, that he would let people lay low in for a bit. And so with a successful test, he would be able to track down these rumors and find the safe house. He'd still have to convince the owner, of course. This didn't sound unreasonable, and not wanting to be a jerk, I went along with it. He rolled the dice and got four hits. Very good. I asked him to make up a story about what sort of place he's finding, and who he's got to talk to. He says there's a pimp who has a place his girls can hide out if necessary (or something like that). I said fine. Now he's got to get hold of the guy. He has a hooker for a contact, so there we go.

What do you all think about the safe house knowledge skill? What should it be good for and how should it be used?

Runner's Companion introduces some interesting rules for owning a safehouse with all the appropriate advantages. I'd allow the safe houses knowledge skill to secure one in an area where owning a "proper" one isn't reasonable.. but I wouldn't allow any of the housing upgrades in RC. Also probably good to throw an additional challenge on one after the character finds it, like negotiating the details, or something like that.

One thing to think about is: What are Safehouses in your game? I know of of the more recent novels had a place that was essentially a "Safehouse", and when it got in trouble, they had a number of supposedly top-end runners coming to help defend the place. They do not have to be places that are necessarily secret, but, depending on the Shadowrunner Community in your city, they can be places that runners have an agree ment are off limits, and they do not tell anyone not a runner about. Places a Runner can go if they need to lie-low for whatever reason..After all: self preservation kicks in, and if a Runner betrays these places, first, who at any of them is going to trust him/her? and second, if the runner betrays any of them, where is he/she going to go when it is his/her turn to lay low?

Well, with Unwired and Runner's Companion, the essential skills for laying low are Hacking and Negotiation.
The former let's you spoof a lifestyle, the latter allows you to find safehouses.

The Safe Houses Street Knowledge skill is thus out in the cold. It should allow a character to judge the quality of such establishments, though.

The Safe Houses knowledge skill is still very useful. Not only can it be used to find a safe house to buy if you don't have one already, it can be used to find one at a moments notice if you need to hide quick(I hear the yaks down in the international district rent out some secure rooms to lie low for a few days no questions asked...that is if you have the nuyen). The knowledge skill is also useful for telling how secure a safehouse is, knowing when a safe houses security is compromised, and figuring out where your targets safe house may be.

Actually, not anymore. Finding a safehouse requires an Availability test using Negotiation.

- you have been in quite a number of safehouses and therefore know where some are.
- you know what quality of safehouses are provided by different factions. Which is nice if you are attacking one.
- you know how to prepare one. Security system design can do the same thing, but is usually more thorough and takes longer.

First of all, your GM has to decide what type Knowledge skill Safe Houses is, Street, Academic, Professional or Interests.

Once you decided that, you can extrapolate what the skill can do. For example a Safe Houses Street Knowledge would give you knowledge about who can get you a safehouse and why a certain place may make a better safehouse than another. Someone with the Safe Houses Professional skill may have the skills to set up a safehouse or how to make a present location safer.

The Negotiation skill may be able to get you a safehouse with certain characteristics to stay in, but it does not help you locate a safehouse.

I'm with totori on this one. Negotiations is the skill used to actually acquire a safe house, but a knowledge of them will help you find the right one for your needs at this time.

Incidentally, I've also used this skill for a team that needs to hide a vehicle in a safe garage.

Not really - Availabilty doesn't take such things into account at all.

Knowledge skill : Safe Houses... it is used to know where to look for safe houses. "know where to look" is the key phrase. In my games, you get know which motels are less likely to ask for id when checking in, or which buildings are not actively being used but are (semi-)secure that you can hide in, etc.

Now for the players to get one, it is role playing and/or active-skill dice rolling. (I prefer the former over the later).

as Dashifen put it, find a safe garage to hide a vehicle is a perfect use of this skill.

just my 2 cents worth..

Cardul, that's a good question about the nature of safehouses in our campaigns. For us, it's a place that someone owns, that people can rent to hide out in. They're usually furnished and have some sort of security. They're not used very often before they're turned over for other uses (sold off). Nobody should know where they are, because being given up is worse for the owner than for the person who sold out. Beyond that, a safehouse can be set up rather quickly, on demand. And who has them? Anyone could have one, but really, only those who would see enough business would have one set up and waiting.

I like the distinction on the type of knowledge skill.

Though there's no availability stat on safehouses, one can call one's fixer in hopes of getting set up. This is more of a role-playing thing. What do you think about making an Availability Test for it? Or using the safehouses knowledge skill for this roll? Same for using the skill to find a safe place on your own. The only applicable active skill is Negotiation (or maybe Etiquette).

Dog-xinu, knowing where to look for your own place, is not too far off from knowing who to ask to rent an actual safehouse from. The main difference in the discussion with the owner that takes place.

Dashifen, could you be a little more specific about how the skill would help you find the right one?

IMO, Safe Houses can be any place that someone can take shelter in while people are out looking for him. The uses of Safe House Street and Safe House Professional may in fact overlap, both can enable a person to know certain things in general with regards to Safe Houses. How does each skill enable the person to come to the same piece of knowledge/conclusion may differ.

The main difference in use between Safe House(as a Knowledge Skill) and Negotiation, IMO of the RAW, is this:

When you need to find a safe house (any safe house within a certain criteria) to stay in, you use Negotiations.

When you need to find a safe house to jump on some poor target's ass, you use the Knowledge Skill. Or if you need to know who owns the safe house or who provides the security around that place, you also use Knowledge.

That might not tell who owns it, and, if I wre using it, it would not. It would, however, tell you where to look to find out..And thus, let you RP trying to find out from your lead..

That would be up to you, as I said, it is my opinion of the RAW. If it is a Street Knowledge skill, Safe Houses will be concerned with the who and the why. I suppose at the other end of the spectrum with a less restrictive GM, you can know who is staying in the safehouse through the use of the skill.

Forgive me; I'm not done with my coffee yet, but I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Finding a safehouse to rent is the same as finding anything else on the black market - using Availability.

Now with "safehouse" being a non-standardised product, how do you decide if you want to buy?

That depends of course on if you're renting one or just finding a suitable empty building to hide out in. Which would still come under the knowledge skill and has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

The easiest comparison of this i can think of is to take a current active skill, and compare it to the knowledge skill.

So, pistols. The active skill is use/maintanence of them.
Knowledge skill is how they function, what they're made of, and things like that.


Safehouse knowledge skill would be for areas that are good for safehouses, what makes a place a safehouse, and things of that nature.

Emphasis mine, &

Same here. I break it down like this, if you wish to find out where the market is to pick up anything with availability, you still need to use contacts. I believe every GM has a right to impose penalties on the rolls to find an item if the character doesn't have either a contact or knowledge in finding these sorts of things. Knowledge as a supplement is essential in games I run, cause if it ain't on your sheet, you don't know squat (but you can default... hope you don't glitch ) Usually I require 2 hits on a knowledge check or contact call (using etiquette) to track down a place that might have what you're looking for. Then you get to move on to the negotiations.

Defaulting and not glitching is relatively easy though.

Not if anyone at my table says "don't glitch that"... I have no clue how that works, but it gets 'em everytime.

Really? No one uses Guard to stop glitches cold at your table?

Apart from "No, they don´t", knowledge skill glitches are hardly accidents or dangers of nature, yes?

So? Knowledge Skill glitches are glitches. And the Guard power can be used to prevent a glitch from happening, yes?

I´ve always assumed that is true only within the previously established context. Would you provide the English wording for me?

As far as the "you need knowledge in it to do it" style gaming. You must really hate when they just buy knowsofts then. Cause, I'd definitely rather use a fake sin to pick up a knowsoft for things I'd frequently be needing to buy. Or even better, just take a warez group as a contact, and get warez knowsofts on the cheap when you need them.

I have no problem with knowsofts, and I have no problems when my players push some tasks to contacts. But an experienced soldier without any kind of professional skill isn´t.

None of the required knowledge (in whatever form) is what sucks.

As far as I'm concerned, Guard only protects against actual 'accidents' and the like (that happen to the character ... not the player). It isn't proof against all Glitches.

All glitches cause actual accidents and the like to the character.

The debate is IMO on "natural" accidents.

To put this to an end, sr4, 288, "The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced by the Accident power), such as preventing someone from succumbing to heatstroke or saving someone from drowning. The Guard power can also be used to prevent a glitch from occurring. Guard may be used on a number of characters at once equal to the critter’s Magic attribute."

Emphasis mine. It blocks normal accidents and hazards including the accident power. It ALSO blocks glitches. It quite clearly does both.

Thanks much. I will mention it at the table.

I didn't dispute that. I merely limit a Spirit's Powers to those things that I feel it can reasonably affect (ie. physical glitches), which doesn't include most Knowledge Skill tests.

Why's that? Couldn't a guidance spirit guard you from something like a knowledge glitch?

Possibly, depending on the situation (but probably not in my games), but that is just one type of Spirit that possesses the Guard Power.