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The Jopp
I'm a bit confused even though it SEEMS to be quite specific in the book but I'd rather ask so that I'm sure.

When purchasing arrows, are those prices like those for ammunition so that you pay for 10 arrows or does a regular arrow cost 10Y apiece or per 10 arrows?

Suddenly my ammunition cost increased by a few thousands... frown.gif

40 incendiary arrows would cost either 240Y OR 24000Y. Now, isn't 24000Y a BIT steep for something you could buy incredibly cheap for regular guns? Arrows cannot be THAT rare in 2060?
Diesel
Per ten in my game.

Dunno about canon.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (The Jopp)
40 incendiary arrows would cost either 240Y OR 24000Y.

Not true. No matter the answer, it'll only differ by a factor of 10.

~J
Munchkinslayer
A good sized modern arrow is about 400 grains. This translates to .025 kilograms. SR3 sez that the weight of an arrow is .1 kg. If that is to be read as a single arrow, you're pretty much screwed. Trying to lob a tree trunk at you opponent guarantees poor range and too little speed to generate a spiral. The spiral is largely responsible for accuracy. Simply put, a .1 kg arrow just wont work for spit. So it has got to mean weight (and therefore price) per 10 arrows.
Kagetenshi
No it doesn't. You can glance around SR3 and see that the weights are often far from sensible.

~J
Munchkinslayer
Oh my dear Kage. You should know that two wrongs dont make a right. But three lefts do! biggrin.gif
Austere Emancipator
So that would make one arrow weigh 10 grams/0.35 ounces/154 grains? That sounds really, really light. Now, I don't know squat about archery, but it seems to me that a 154 grain arrow moving at ~300+fps wouldn't be a very dangerous weapon, compared to pistols firing 155grain bullets at 1000-1500fps+. Also, Shadowrun has firearms ammunition at 0.05kg each (that's right, Light Pistol regular ammo weighs in at 770grains!), so 0.1kg most likely refers to the weight of 1 arrow -- as completely ignorant of actual ammo weights as the game designers were, I doubt they'd have put 1 arrow at 1/5th the weight of a single cartridge.

Looking at hunting arrows in online hunting stores, it seems most go at $40-150 per dozen, so the 10 nuyen.gif is probably the price of 1 arrow -- a bit on the expensive side, but it's more sane than the other option: $1 arrows.
Munchkinslayer
I forgot to give you your props Kagetenshi. SR3 sez 1.65 pounds for an empty HO pistol clip? Hows that for "far from sensible"?

And yes 10 grams = 154.3235835 grains http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_all.htm
toturi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
So that would make one arrow weigh 10 grams/0.35 ounces/154 grains? That sounds really, really light. Now, I don't know squat about archery, but it seems to me that a 154 grain arrow moving at ~300+fps wouldn't be a very dangerous weapon, compared to pistols firing 155grain bullets at 1000-1500fps+. Also, Shadowrun has firearms ammunition at 0.05kg each (that's right, Light Pistol regular ammo weighs in at 770grains!), so 0.1kg most likely refers to the weight of 1 arrow -- as completely ignorant of actual ammo weights as the game designers were, I doubt they'd have put 1 arrow at 1/5th the weight of a single cartridge.

Looking at hunting arrows in online hunting stores, it seems most go at $40-150 per dozen, so the 10 nuyen.gif is probably the price of 1 arrow -- a bit on the expensive side, but it's more sane than the other option: $1 arrows.

You want to stand at 60m and let me shoot my 10g arrows at you? My arrows weigh not much more than my average ballpoint pens. But they sure make nice holes in the target board.
gknoy
QUOTE (The Jopp)
When purchasing arrows, are those prices like those for ammunition so that you pay for 10 arrows or does a regular arrow cost 10Y apiece or per 10 arrows?

Being an avid archer, I've had several opportunities to buy arrows.

Arrows that are anything more than total crap need to be custom made. (At minimum, this means cuttnig to the right length, for aluminum / carbon fiber arrows.)

Cheap arows are ~$40 a dozen,
most arrows are ~$60 a dozen (this is what mine cost),
high-quality competition-grade arrows cost $80-$120 or so a dozen, or MORE.

What would a Shadowrunner use? I think it's safe to say that the shadowrunner, because he has TIME constraints on his firing (as opposed to the olympic or competition shooter) will not benefit significantly from the uber-expensive $10-each arrows, but will still spring for the mid-range arrows. (BTW, $60/dozen is about what most custom wooden / traditional handmade arrows cost, too -- a reflection of the effort that goes into them.)

I think it's safe to say that arrows fit for a runner would be of the ~$5/arrow variety... and I think I read once that 1 nuyen was about 4 or 5 current US dollars... (forget where I read this, tho ... I think it may have been Raygun's site discussing gun prices wink.gif)

So, I think that nuyen.gif 1-2 per arrow is about what you'd pay. 10 is Right Out, to steal from Monty Python.

Edit: Runners might actually bew more likelly to use the more expensive (~$10/each) carbon fiber arrows: they have smaller diameter than aluminum, and have much better penetration (in hay bales and other targets) than the other types. When you consider most runners would be shooting at armor ... penetration is good smile.gif

Also edit: yeah, what toturi said. biggrin.gif

Of course, any archer that is shooting at COMBAT targets more than 20-40 meters is either godlike (if they hit) or unlikely to hit anything... most bowhunters (who have the element of surprise wink.gif) do most oftheir shooting from 20-25 yards. Or so I've read. Though, partly that's so that they can ensure a clean kill...
The Jopp
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Dec 25 2003, 04:58 PM)
40 incendiary arrows would cost either 240Y OR 24000Y.

Not true. No matter the answer, it'll only differ by a factor of 10.

~J

DOH! Yes, I realized that some time later that I had made a slight miscalculation. grinbig.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (gknoy)
and I think I read once that 1 nuyen was about 4 or 5 current US dollars...

Better than using some given rate of what nuyen is supposed to be compared to the current USD is to look at the prices that already exist and comparing those to Real World prices. This way, 1 nuyen comes out much closer to 1 USD. Otherwise you'd be facing $10,000 NODs in the 2060s, or $10 common pistol cartridges each, no Light Pistols under the $1,500 mark and no Assault Rifles under the $3,500 mark. The H&K G36 with dual optic sights only costs ~$1,350 to US LE agencies.

So at least insofar as firearms, ammunition and armor is concerned, 1 nuyen = 1 USD (2003) is much closer. Which is why I still think 10 nuyen = 1 Arrow is more sensible than 1 nuyen = 1 Arrow. The latter would also mean that Arrows would be half the price of Regular firearm ammunition (!!!) and you could get 20 Arrows for the price of one disk of music.

QUOTE (toturi)
You want to stand at 60m and let me shoot my 10g arrows at you? My arrows weigh not much more than my average ballpoint pens. But they sure make nice holes in the target board.

I'm more concerned with them making holes in body armor and human bodies. Shadowrun would have us believe that a very strong guy with a bow can penetrate more armor than Light Pistols, and an Ork could easily penetrate more with it than most rifle shots. You want to fire that arrow through one of these at 60 meters?
toturi
I'll try it the next time there's a riot here. My target board has a 3 inch hard wood backing. And my arrows make nice holes in them. By the way, I shot my military kevlar helmet once on a dare from about 10m, nice hole.
Austere Emancipator
"Military kevlar helmet" doesn't mean squat. That could be level II-A or less for actual protection. "Light Pistol" rounds easily penetrate 6"+ of wood, often much more than that. I couldn't find any solid data to confirm this, but the few sites I could find with Google confirmed that over 8" of hard wood isn't hard to penetrate with common pistol loadings. 3" of hard wood would be considered extremely weak penetration for a pistol. That's probably about as much as a solid lead .22LR manages.

And the police in Singapore use tactical ballistic shields during riots?! Sheesh. Does the average rioter fire handguns at the police, then?
Kagetenshi
Only a few rioters would have to to make the practice common.

~J
toturi
Dunno, never had a riot in the last 20 years. smile.gif

Said helmet was proven to be able to take a 5.56 hit... (never actually seen it though)
Austere Emancipator
I have never, ever seen that happen. In countries where the police assume that rioters are packing heat, it's usually the military that gets sent into the riots, and then they won't need shields to protect themselves -- a company of men with assault rifles, a few APCs and several GPMGs are pretty good at quelling a riot. In any civilized country, and any Western country, what you'll see in riots are plastic riots shields. They aren't supposed to stop anything but light, improvised melee weapons and the misc crap that gets thrown at cops.

The only situations where I've seen tactical ballistic shields are SWAT-style operations. So if you really want to test your arrows, take a few guys hostage and start shooting passers-by with your bow.

QUOTE (toturi)
Said helmet was proven to be able to take a 5.56 hit...

A blatant lie (from whoever claims that it's proven). Common military kevlar helmets aren't supposed to stop anything bigger than 9x19 FMJs, and even that could easily kill you. At a direct angle, at close range, a 5.56x45 FMJ will penetrate any god damn helmet. Check here for examples: Note that not one of these protects more than level III-A: Won't stop a .44 Magnum FMJ, doesn't stand a god damn chance against any rifle rounds (assault or otherwise).
Diesel
Isn't the bulk of the armor just designed to make shrapnel a little more user friendly?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Diesel)
Isn't the bulk of the armor just designed to make shrapnel a little more user friendly?

Ie "Isn't most of military body armor just designed to [...]"? If that's what you're asking, then yes. Since pistols aren't very commonly used in actual warfare, and (assault) rifles tend to penetrate most armor anyway, most (though certainly not all) military armor is designed to protect against shrapnel.

Body armor used by police is another thing entirely: The average SWAT team faces far less grenades and far more handguns. And because the most used standard for determining the protection offered by body armor is the NIJ classification, even military armor is almost always rated to protect against certain types of firearm/bullet threats.

Is that what you were asking?
Diesel
Yeah. You got it.

(Aside: I'm now a running target. Woo. Just noticed. biggrin.gif )
Kagetenshi
Welcome to the ever-growing club. Wonder what the next level is...

~J
toturi
Errr.. The One Target?

"You mean I can dodge bullets?"
"No. When you are ready, you wont need to."
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