Just reading core rules, pg 191


My touch spell is an awaken power, can I touch (ie whack very hard) somebody with my weapon foci and have that count?


Max,
Dunedin, NZ

I would say no, for a touch range spell it says (SR4 pg 195) "To touch an unwilling target, the caster make make a normal unarmed attack as..."

Using a weapon foci is very much an armed attack. I could even see logic that would say that if you are wearing gloves you can't use touch spells, though I don't think I would personally use that ruling.

Things like Hardliner Gloves can be enchanted to be Weapon Foci, which would then aid in Unarmed Combat.

Nice, also makes it Physical damage.

Maybe you could enchant that set of shock gloves instead

i'm just waiting for the faction of people saying: just because you use UNARMED COMBAT as the skill, does not mean it is an unarmed attack if you're using weapon-gloves

I think weapon foci are perfectly compatible with touch spells. I see no reason why a touch spell can't be cast on a weapon focus. =i)

Since the aura is targeted (not visually mind you, but magically) if you cannot transfer the spell from aura to aura through the attackers gloves then a big jacket on a target should block places the aggressor could touch and gloves and other clothing would then hinder if not outright block astral perception to the target. So to me, logically, auras should penetrate clothing (for game balance purposes) and that in my own mind makes me think touch spells should penetrate gloves.

Just my thoughts. Astral Metaphysics and all... as to weapon foci allowing touch spells it would allow a massive edged weapon dicepool to serve double purpose. I'd rather see an Adept power for .25 magic allowing it. It'd then be a boon for Mystic Adepts.

Ahh...but isn't the foci bound to you via Karma, and thus, a part of you? I would allow it because it's kind of fresh.

Doesn't work. SR4, 191, "Weapon foci require a Complex Action to use like any other melee weapon."
If you're using your complex action to attack with a weapon focus, then you are not using it to cast a touch range spell.

I'm not going to pretend this is the official answer or anything, but put me down for a qualified "maybe." Touching an unwilling subject requires an Unarmed Combat Test, some weapons use the Unarmed Combat skill, weapon foci add dice to the relevant skill.

True, except on page 195 ...



So in this case, the complex action is both the melee hit to touch and the spellcasting. Thus, if someone were to allow some or all weapon foci during touch-attacks-for-spells, it seems like there's precedence to allow it.

Except, there isn't, because as I quoted for weapon foci, they take a complex action of their own to attack with a weapon foci. Since you're not attacking with the weapon foci, you don't get the bonus.

The use of a weapon focus to attack is listed as a complex action permitting an attack.
Touch casting is a complex action permitting an attack.
Neither says "only" or includes any language of (mutual) exclusivity. This means it remains an "OR" condition.
If weapons are allowed to be used with touch attacks then Modus Ponens says weapon foci can be used for touch attacks like any other weapon. You don't suddenly *not* get to use a sword to touch someone just because its magical.

My apologies for the nerdiness of this post, I'm merely seperating the RAW from the RAI.

And for the record, I'm against weapon based touch casting unless it is purchased as a superlative ability not available to the average mage.

"Weapon foci require a Complex Action to use like any other melee weapon."
Touch casting allows an unarmed attack to be done. Thus, no melee weapons allowed. Do you allow for the mage to inflict the regular stun damage on top of the spell he is casting?

Absolutely. Of course, it will be pretty hard to be a good mage and a melee gawd so I don't see this becoming a real issue.

Not really... I think I have a new mystic adept build... Let see what I can come up with.

If they take the +2 dice for touch only, do you still let them do the stun damage? What if they have hardliner gloves on? Do they get that damage code even for touch only?

I see what you are saying.

In effect, there is a difference between attacking to establish contact (touch) and attacking to inflict damage.

Touch based spells simply require contact.

Damaging Melee attacks are another beast. Not only do they also require touch (for obvious reasons), they must also be used in such a manner as to cause damage.

But since a bonded weapon focus adds its dice to all relevant tests, I'd give the bonus dice to the touch based attack but disallow any damage to be inflicted by the weapon.

Thus... you could take that +2 weapon focus sword and reach out and touch someone with it to cast the touch based spell. It'll help you with that as you are using it to extend your touch slightly. But it won't do damage as you weren't using it in a damaging manner.

After all, you can't make a damaging melee attack AND cast spells in the same combat action.

Although in Street Magic, p160:
"This attack succeeds even if the caster and target tie on teh Opposed Test. This accounts for the fact that the caster does not actually have to attack and hurt the target, he simply needs to make contact. In fact, this unarmed attack will not cause damage even if the caster succeeds, as he is pre-occupied more with casting the spell than inflicting physical harm."

Seems to be a resounding no on attacking with a weapon foci (and doing damage) while casting a spell. As to whether you could use a polearm foci with reach +2 simply to touch targets, like a magic fairy... that could work? Who knows. But the munchkiness of slicing someone with a sword while casting death touch seems to be no.

Of course, you could always have a spell focus in the form of a weapon... but still, no concurrent damage + casting. IMHO. :)

**ha, darthmord, you beat me to it.

Not to all relevant tests. To the dice pool for melee attacks.

Also, touch spells state it needs to be an unarmed attack to touch them, you can't make a touch attack with a sword.

A weapon focus gives its bonus to what tests again?

Wait for it...

I got it! Melee attacks.

I would have never guessed that all relevant tests regarding a weapon focus would be interpreted to include such things as casting success or healing tests or even perception tests.

/end sarcasm

Given that it needs to be an unarmed attack, obviously my sword example is incorrect**. So replace the sword with an unarmed combat weapon like brass knuckles.

You are still making an Unarmed Combat roll. Thus the weapon focus should help if the weapon focus is one that will contribute to said combat roll.

You still don't get the weapon focus' damage.

As a side note, in the older Editions, they did talk about not allowing Gun-fu as a Centering technique as it was not appropriate to get additional casting benefits for being able to shoot someone really well. I would hope the same line of thinking still applies.

** But it does make for an interesting metamagic... cast touch range spells with any melee weapon focus.

"Any relevant tests" would also include things like parry tests, which they do not help with. That was the distinction I was making.

SR4, 191, "The character can only draw on these additional dice when undertaking a task for which the focus was designed."

I don't think a hardliner glove weapon focus was designed to touch people without causing damage more effectively. So, there is a case for a GM saying "No". Even if it isn't spelled out explicitly.

No, it does not work. Reason: Weapon Foci add a dice poll modifier to attacks made with the focus. This is distinctly different from adding to attacks made with a certain skill. You do not use a Hardliner Glove to touch someone, you use it to strike them.

This is the same reason you do not get a Focus bonus on subduing attempts. You still use your Unarmed skill, you are very likely attacking with your hands wearing the Focus, but you are not attacking with the Focus.