Hi all

Nice to see DS is back now.

I'd like to use you guys as a sounding board - opinions on the house-rule below please:

When being possessed by a spirit (of a possession tradition), the armour that the spirit grants you for free (double that spirit's force by default) does not stack with your worn armour for damage resistance tests. You use whichever of the two armour scores (your worn armour, or the spirit's granted armour) is highest for actually making DR tests.

For the purposes of your "Hardened Armour" that is granted through "Immunity to Normal Weapons" the threshold to break through your immunity remains based on the spirit's granted armour (double the spirit's force), even if you are wearing more armour.

Spells such as armour and adept powers such as mystic armour continue to stack as normal.

What do people think? Am I going crazy, am I missing something fundamental, was this already the rules/how it was supposed to work?

Sunday, I was GMing a game and a possession-based mage had a F6 spirit possess himself to powerup for a fight, and then tried to roll 36 dice for a DR test (this was based on Impact armour, not Ballistic):

12 from the spirit (and of course, I had to do him 13 damage in one hit to just breach his Immunity)
2 from Form Fitting Armour
4 from his worn armour
2 from PPP add-ons
10 from his adjusted body of 4+6
6 from Edge (argh, and it wasn't even his edge, it was the spirit's egde)

I thought this was just a touch over the top, especially compared with the power levels of the rest of the team.

So - opinions?

I am aware that he is also abusing his ability to keep summoning lots of spirits too - so don't worry. I am going to cover that angle with spirits starting to demand services from his character, and also every now and then a spirit might just use its edge to oppose being summoned

That is where you went wrong. Regardless, Possession spirits can be powerful, but no more so than Materialization. Your rule is unnecessary, & I for one, would hate playing in a game with it, even though I do not play Possession mages.. You can relatively easily achieve armor ratings in the 50s range at character generation, without Possession.

Yes, only the EDGE part was wrong. See the following link for a Dumpshock FAQ on posssession.

Possession FAQ

Peter

So - I always thought that summoned spirits had their own edge and it was spent independently of the mage that summoned it.

So - a spirit posseses a mage, needs to make a DR test, and because "the spirit's in control" of that body, if it needs to edge the test, it's the spirit's edge that gets spent, not the summoning mage's.

Also - ack! I guess this is coming down to personal preference and the power level I have been running the game at. The rest of the team are (on average) not much more powerful/optimised than the archetypes in the core book, and I have this one player who has 'optimised' their character to be way more uber.

Maybe he hasn't broken any of the rules as written, but unchecked he has started stealing the show and making half of the rest of the team feel somewhat redundant. In fact, it's worse than that, because with his hardened armour of 12, in order to stand a chance of damaging him with a nonmagical attack, I have to be doing so much damage in one attack that I am seriously risking one-hit-killing any of the other team members if that attack were directed at them - even the armoured up cyber-character who had previously been described as "a tank" - this guy when possessed has double that character's armour.

I really just want to level the playing field, because the addition of this new character has made the game less fun for a lot of other players. Of course I am half to blame, I should have read the character more thoroughly before approving it for playing in the game, I didn't see the power level of the character before it was started. Now, I have 4 players who basically spend the game session doing very little, and one who runs the show on his own because he can emulate most of their abilities except hacking skills. Not so much fun.

<gets out the nerf bat>

The immunity to normal weapons that spirits have is a consequence of materialisation. (main book pg.288)

Possession-tradition spirits loose the ability of materialisation. (SM pg.98)

=> No hardened armor for possessed mages, at least not that way.

SM page 102, black sidebar, right at the top - they do get immunity to normal weapons

Ok, I thought the German page numbers are identical, but they aren´t. My page 102 has no black sidebar. (My SM reference was supposed to go to the description of the Possession power.)

If you are speaking of flesh-form spirits (my pg. 100), then no. That is a different case.

Lol oops - I am referring to the "Possession and Vessels" sidebar, which is mentioned in the Possession power description. In my SM the sidebar is on "the page after the main description of the possession power". The sidebar is pretty long (my one spans two pages) and has headings:

• Living Vessels
• Dead or Inanimate Vessels
• Possession and Services
• Roleplaying Possession
• Damage

Right at the top of the sidebar (before the Living Vessels heading) it states that "When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined being that results is dual-natured, has Immunity to Normal Weapons, and boasts all of the spirit's powers and skills."

Thanks Toreador.

Ways to balance this player without shitting off the rest of the team:
-Background Count - Will reduce the force of the possesion spirit.
-Mana Static (see above)
-Banishing - There should be enemy mages, have them just strip the spirit out of the offending player.
-Astrally projecting mages - An astral mage can attack the player with spells. Because the spirit is trapped inside a physical body, and hence restricted to physical speeds and movement abilities, it can't retaliate except for with powers (which, if I recall, should use up services)
-Non-possesion tradition mages and their spirits - If THIS guy keeps summoning and abusing force 6 spirits, then why can't the enemy? Have them throw some unrestricted by possession spirits at him.
-Wards - Sure, the spirit could break the ward to get through, but that will alert the above astral mages or spirits, followed by backup.

However, don't forget that the first avenue should be suggesting that this guy is breaking the game and making it less fun for everyone. If you take the above actions, and this guy is immature, he'll start spitting chips and have a temper tantrum. If he's your pal outside the game, you probably don't want to cause that.

Hi,

I am the tank of that group. Quite honestly I am not throwing around 40+ dice per combat, just 13 (Agility at 9 and combat group at 4). Last session I saw our mage roll 18 dice for close combat rolls. When landed they would do some major damage.

It's not so much as being unfair than as a player on feeling redundant. Why even try?

If a character is unbalancing the game, and rendering the rest of the PCs redundant, either ban the character, or nerf it. You're not forced to let something that makes the game less fun stay.

I'd not use any of the means Sir_Psycho mentioned, I'd flat out tell the player "You're ruining the game, make another character that is more fitting in".

In my campaign we have all the players veto a new character, so such problems can be avoided.

I would strongly suggest to go at the cause, rather than the effects. "Properly" played magic 6 magicians have no place in anything but high-power campaigns. It´s IMO damn easy to miss that the DS standard for magicians is equal to the Munchkin Gold Standard.

What would work for my campaign is telling the player to tone it down. The established levels for our campaign are effective magic 3-4, spirit force up to 5. This is brought about without rules changes, just by consensus. Those who want bad MoFo´s go for Invoking anyway...

(@Chrysalis: There are a few options: Ignore that he is superior ruleswise, your char is pretty good! / Support tactics that divide your team. / Request that the player leaves spotlight for the others (option 1+2, done by him))

Not too familiar with the possession rules and don't have my book on me, but are you certain that the body stats stack like that? That would at least lower it some.

Also keep in mind that while he is personally quite powerful, he really isn't any stronger then a regular mage who summons a spirit of some kind. Think about it, you could summon a force 6 spirit of roughly the same ability, and still be able to do other things.

Now of course the real problem isn't throwing stuff at him that can stop him (all too easy) but making the other characters not feel like they're on the sidelines while the mage does everything.

I'd suggest among other things that you make sure he is using up services properly and taking drain and penalties from that, and take advantage of surprise. This is when you want to kill the character off of course, because with all those points into magic, he can't have much else.

The real thing as others have suggested is talking to the player directly. DS has tons of characters that are 'legal' but would never be allowed in a game because they are so powerful.

"Yeah, great, you made a character with 100+ armor. Now you have two options, you can make a real character or I can kill him 10 seconds into the game."

If he doesn't have invoking, then he has to use his services to have the spirit attack stuff. Now, granted, its 1 service to say "kill those guys attacking us". But its up to the spirit (i.e. the GM) to decide how to do that. Whether its going to run up and punch them all, or use its powers, or what, he is not playing his character. He is giving orders to the spirit. I'd say the more he causes your group to lose fun, the more the GM should play the spirit taking orders instead of letting the character do it.

He wants to play the puppet master in true munchkin fashion? It possesses him, you take his sheet, and make the rolls, and mark off his services as he orders it to do things. He gets to sit there and go "I order it to kill those guys. *combat ensues, he horribly massacres the guys* 1 service. One of the guards radioed backup, backup shows up. "I order it to kill those guys" 1 service. *combat ensues, he massacres them* Rest of his team is saying to get out of there, so they go to leave, and hit more reinforcements. Another service to attack those guys, oh, but some more showed up mid-fight, thats another service if you want to attack those ones too. And so on.

How does Invoking prevent the use of services? Having Channeling allows the magician to act without ordering the possessing spirit to do anything, though.

Peter

Err, yes, chanelling is what I was thinking of. I have no idea why I typed invoking.

... and this player playing an uber character ... guess where he plans to spend his first 10 karma? Initiation and Channeling ... thank god I can limit how quickly he can initiate as GM!

Which really isn't that much worse. Since either he has to use a service to have the spirit use any powers, or just run up and clobber the bad guys. Clobbering is amazingly slower than shooting.

Voodoo Tradition, thus his regular spirits are: Guardian Spirits (wee, gain any combat skill in the book at [spirit's force]), Task Spirits (wee, gain almost any non-combat skill in the book at [spirit's force]) and Spirits of Man (wee, he can give the spirit one of his spells and ask it to cast/sustain it, although not SO bad, because each casting is a service, and if the spirit sustains it, the combined mage/spirit is at -2 to everything)

And? The problem with this is what? If they are channeling, they use the mages skills. Not the spirits.
If he wants to let the spirit have control and use its skill, guess what, thats a service.

And yes, casting spells can be a service. But it can be part of the "use your stunbolt to knock all those guys out" service as the casting is a power use.

So about me hijacking that deltaware clinic with a viral bomb...

Possession is not really any more powerful than Materialization. Your best solution to this problem will be to speak to the player about it. It seems very much like the problem I have with Skillwires in general. If this continues to be a problem, you can kill off the character, or ban Possession entirely (as I would also suggest with Skillwires). I strongly advice against nerfing something that is already balanced, but if it continues to be a problem, removing it entirely is a solution.


I do however believe spirits are to powerful by RAW, and suggest the following changes. This may reduce your problem somewhat:
Spirit Attributes are 1/2 Force + Modifier (round up)
Spirit Skills are 1/2 Force (round up)
Conjured spirits do not have Edge. The summoner may spend their own Edge on the spirits tests.
Guardian Spirits may know any single Combat Skill that the summoner possesses.
Task Spirits may know any single Technical Skill that the summoner possesses.

Note: I have not had a chance to play-test these rules, but I have thought about them for a while, & believe they will function quite well. If you use it, I strongly suggest using the same for technomancer sprites.



My group also has another house-rule that has been tested, & works quite well. I doubt it will have any immediate effect on your game, but you may want to consider it:
Maximum natural Magic may not exceed 7.
Maximum Initiation Grade may not exceed 5.
Focus Force may not exceed 7.
Metamagic Focus Force may not exceed 5.

What this does is keep the mage entirely viable at any point, while restricting their ability to flat-out surpass mundane characters at high Karma levels.

You gave the man the Voodoo tradition? What where you thinking? Voodoo is totally broken and lame. The least you can do is tell him to write up a different possession mage and only allow him 1 spirit pick from spirit of man, guardian, or task. The fact that you let him get away with the insane possession Voodoo mage is just asking for trouble. As a GM I would have said no straight to his face and told him to get something less cheese. Also where does this 10 karma to initiate come from? Isn't it more like 21 karma to go from 6 to 7?

He doesn't care about raising his magic score, he just wants the metamagic power from the base initiation.

Initiating costs 10 karma (plus something based on your current initiate grade I think, I don't have the book with me right now) - THEN as an extra cost you can raise your magic attrib too. Chanelling (the metamagic power) is what he wants, because he can then begin casting/sustaining spells (and using his foci which are bonded to him) whilst possessed.

But yeah - at the core of it, I basically agree with the "ask him to change the character out" advice. I didn't review the character thoroughly enough before I allowed him to start playing, and clearly he has something that is way above the power level I have in the game at the moment (whilst not technically breaking any rules AFAIK).

Thanks all for helping me make a better decision

Its 10 + (3xgrade initiating to). That means 13 karma for grade 1.

As far as wanting channeling, tell him you don't want him to have it because hes already breaking your power level how he is. If he insists, have him go on a metaplanar quest, and make it so difficult if he keeps trying to get it, you kill him. Now you get a new less munchkined char.

Quick 2 cents: Isn't the rule that a spirit possessing an object adds its Force the the relevant ratings of the object? So it would just increase the Armor's ratings by its Force, and not grant the wearer hardened armor at all. (That's how I remember it, I'd have to check the book later to be 100%.) In that case, the spirit's Immunity would only apply when attacks are made to directly damage it (essentially, someone would have to attack the armor itself).

If that's how it goes (and I think it is), this isn't so bad. It's just an armor bonus equal to the Force.

No, it actually specifically says that possessing spirits grant the body they're possessing ItNW.

I misunderstood the example. I thought it was about spirits possessing the character's armor itself.