What is an Electronic Device in SR ?

The reason I am calling this a trick question, is because I run part of an SR campaign and play a technomancer as well and well, there are machine sprites.

Part of me wants to horrible abuse them, and parts of me wants to kill the character the other half of me wants to play.

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In short, I am looking for an official answer, whether the Machine Sprite will work on a gun.

As GM I personally would say no, but still an official answer would be nice.

i would say anything that can be said to have their primary function controlled by a chip or other small computer.

in SR, that could cover just about anything having a battery or running of a wall socket. and yes, even some guns (electric trigger and so on).

I'd just off hand say anything that you could remotely control via the matrix. Cars, smartguns, drones, appliances, some clothing, light fixtures, cameras, doors, locks, etc.

Does Gun have smartlink?
Yes-Then gun is a computer
No- Then Gun is not a computer.

In the case of a gun, it's still your arm and eyes that do the shooting. A machine sprite can't change the trajectory of the bullet, or adjust the direction you point that gun.

I might allow it on a cyber-arm, maybe.

Yep. In my opinion, the gun would work just fine, maybe even be mechanically better than ever. However, this would not affect the skill of the person using the gun.

Actually I have been thinking about this one. It's even worse when you consider that this thing could also be uploaded into your cyber-arm, a bonus to every task you take with that arm.

Found RAW!

Yes a Machine Sprite can inhabit a Smartgun. That's a neat way to negate any Critical Glitches that are rolled while using the weapon. I would still say that the Sprite provides no bonuses to the player while using the gun, however.

A machine sprite in a smartgun is pretty much like adding a TacSoft. It adds AI-type intelligence to the system. The smartgun system starts making predictions about the target's movements, actually adjusts the targeting sight to compensate for the shooter's tendency to jerk the trigger and pull the gun down and to the right, etc.

As far as I am concerned, a Machine Sprite will not compensate for human error in that manner. It would prevent Glitches, but wouldn't make the metahuman shooter (or his Skill) any better.

Technically speaking, everything is a Device. Just about everything has a default Device Rating, and just about everything has unlimited memory. Yes, that means you can carry entire seasons of your favorite trid show on your underpants.


I would agree with this. Just because something has a Device Rating doesn't mean the spirit can do things with it.

This is how we interpret it in our game.

A standard off the shelf Smartlink give +2 dice to the shooter's dice pool. A Machine Sprite inhabiting the gun might turn that into a +3 or +4 dice to the pool.

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Off Topic question (but related to Smartguns): Can a regular hacker code a program to run the interface of his smartgun and therefore not need the smartlink gear in either his eyes or in a vision enhancer? I will assume the person using the program either has a simsense module, &/or a displaylink in his eyes.

Not in my games.

Fine, but will you agree by RAW it works?

Nope. I gave my opinion on the rules as written earlier.

OK Fortune... Why not? What is wrong with doing this?

Isn't the 'cheese factor' enough of a reason?

I agree with Fortune. There is nothing in the RAW to suggest that a Machine Sprite makes any device operate above its normal parameters. By negating Critical Glitches and decreasing Maintenance it does make the device operate much more smoothly than it normally would, but not better than it normally would. Doing so would set a dangerous precedent, IMO.

umm just because its cheesy doesnt make it not RAW..IE emo toys seem as cheesy as it gets and they are RAW.

I R NOOB so i could be wrong.

Then when sorts of devices would you let it actually add a dice pool benefit too?

Never. A Machine Sprite has the ability to operate a device independently, not to provide a bonus to someone using the device. As previously stated, it negates Critical Glitches and reduces Maintenance on the device. This is enough of a benefit in addition to the ability to operate independently, as previously stated. I refuse to give TM's the equivalent of Item Attunement (Anything Electronic that happens to be around) via a Complex Action.

SR4, 237, "The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the
inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite must be accessing
the device in question. The sprite can then convey this
information and assist someone using or repairing the device.
Make a sprite rating x 2 test; each hit adds 1 die to the character’s
test to use or repair the item."

It explicitly can provide a bonus to use of the device by a character. So, what devices would you allow this on?

Seems like a smart linked gun falls into that catagory. I like the description above.

Ah, I missed that wording in the Diagnostic power. Very well, it can provide a few extra dice to the use of any electronic device, including a Smartlink, I would rule. However, this leaves open the interpretation of what constitutes a "use." A conservative GM might say that one "use" of a Smartlink is any time you throw the dice using the SM bonus, so: a single shot, burst, or full auto fire. A "looser" GM might allow the bonus for one service to persist for a whole round, a whole combat, or a whole day (8 hour period). I would go with the conservative interpretation, personally. The mechanics "feel" very similar to a Teamwork test, and since that bonus lasts for only one particular "roll" I would say the same rules apply.

Much like spirits, sprites performing a continual use of a power is one task. SR4, 235, "Continual use of a specific power, whether on a single target of group, counts as only one task. If the parameters of a task are changed, another task is used."

So, "diagnose my gun" will last until the techno gives him another order, or the 8 hours are up.

If it were a Registered Sprite would you allow the power to remain infinitely?

a gun is not an electronic device. a trigger may be electronic, as is the smartlink's computer, but when you throw your pistols skill, you aren't "using" either of those. there's no roll involved in "using" a smartlink, it just happens. if you had to, for example, reprogram your smartlink's computer on the fly (for whatever reason, gods know what crazy stuff some players come up with) then your machine sprite might be able to help you. if your smartlink is already working correctly, then there shouldn't really be any room for it to become MORE accurate.

shuya, see quote from before...
"Smart or Not?
A standard weapon is considered a “dumb� device with no
Device rating and no wireless connection, so it cannot interact
with the Matrix nor can it be manipulated through it. Th is is
the case for most melee and thrown weapons. Many 2070-era
fi rearms, however, are equipped with a smartgun system, either
off -the-rack, as an internal or external fi rearm accessory, or as
a weapon modifi cation. Th ese weapons are considered smart
weapons with a Device rating of 3 and a wireless connection,
as well as the basic equipment that comes with a smart system
(laser range fi nder, small camera, sensors to keep track of heat
buildup and ammunition, an automatic gun mode switch, and
clip ejection). Some of the weapon modifi cations listed below
require a weapon to be a smart weapon."
Smartguns explicitly are a device.

Except I can see a Sprite helping out with a smartgun. Here's the description of the smartlink:



The emphasis is mine. I would say that a Sprite would be MUCH more efficient in making those calcs and therefore add more dice to your firearms pool.

Why would a Sprite automatically be more efficient (let alone much more) than 'advanced calculation software', which is designed specifically for that purpose?

How would a sprite help someone use a commlink better?

Its magic (wait, no, it isn't)...... its resonance!

Or a medkit, or an electronic autopicker, or a keycard copier, or a latex face mask lifecast kit?

Shrug. All of those devices have ratings, so could conceivably be improved upon. On the other hand, a Smartlink has no rating, as it is already considered to work at peak efficiency.

Why is hacker better at hacking than an Agent that is specifically designed to be a hacker? Answer, the Hacker has that spark of inspiration.

Why would a Sprite be more efficient than the software? The Sprite is an intelligent entity and can make better decisions than the normal software.

What 'decisions' are there to be made? No independent thought is needed to calculate targeting information. It's pretty much just pure math.

intuitive movement prediction

Smartguns have ratings too.

Short answer: it will. Because everything that has a device rating is an electronic device. (BBB pp 206, 213f, 300).

Machine sprites are totally broken. Unless you just happen to play under German FanPro 4th rules, then it won't, because they unilaterally made guns and vehicles exempt from a machine sprite's effects (making it only broken for hackers and rules lawyers putting commlinks into their vehicles and guns). Synner promised this might be adressed in the Errata.

But since sprites are pretty overpowered in general, feel free to abuse them, as being overpowered if used with rules smarts (and useless if not) is the main idea of the technomancer, it seems. Also, you really, REALLY want to get yourself Unwired, because without it, technomancers are a lot less powerful (want 5 IP? I know you do. Who wouldn't? Then get Unwired. Because it allows them for mancers and hackers).

"When used with a smartlink, it provides a +2 dice pool bonus on the ranged attack test. "

Yes, a smartgun has a device rating, and that rating can be improved. But as you can see above, that does not by any means mean more dice in combat, since you don't get "+(device-rating)dice pool bonus", but "+2 dpb". So, that bonus can not be improved by using a maschine spirit.

Synner, please take note.

whats the difference between a sprite giveing a bonus and a posesion spirit giveing bonuses?

why is there a difference?

From the chat today:



In other words, gamemaster discretion. For now.

Greeeeeeaaaaaat.

Why didn't they just save us 40 bucks, and hand out a sheet of paper that says: "SR4 rules: GM discretion"?

*goes off to a corner to sulk*