Recoil Modifiers.
Certain categories of weapons have increased recoil modifiers. Every time one of these weapons would take a penalty for recoil (before compensation is applied) these weapons suffer an increase to those modifiers. This replaces the standard rules for heavy weapons suffering double recoil modifiers.

Heavy pistols an assault rifles increase recoil by 1; MMGs, shotguns, sporting rifles, and sniper rifles increase modifiers by 2; HMGs increase modifiers by 3; and Assault Cannons increase modifiers by 4.

A few weapons stand as exceptions: the Ingram Supermach gains 1 free point of recoil compensation, the Ares HVAR does as well. The RugerSuper Warhawk, the PJSS Elephant Rifle, and the Barrett Model 121 all have another 1 added to their modifiers.

Damage and AP
With the exception of the PJSS Elephant Rifle, all sport rifles have their damage changed to 6P and their AP to -3. With the exception of the Barrett Model 121, all sniper rifles are changed to 6P and AP -2. The Barrett Model 121 is changed to 7P and -3 AP. This brings the sniper rifles in line with the MMG rounds that they commonly use, makes the sport rifles slightly more powerful than most sniper rifles (which is commonly the case in real life), and puts the Barrett Model 121 in line with the HMGs. This also puts the Model 121 below the Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle in power. I'm personally electing to ignore the errata for the Gauss Rifle.

When I feel like typing more, I may add more changes, but these are all I care to do for now.

Now why do ARs, known for their low recoil, have their recoil increased?

Because their recoil is higher than that of an SMG.

The problems with this (and the RAW) is that machineguns are designed for effective autofire and to absorb recoil so they can be used effectively for area and point suppression. They buck around a lot less than rifles because they're designed with the action/recoil point in-line with the stock/grips and they have more mass while firing the same rounds as assault/battle rifles (barring HMGs, of course).

I'm not for adding AP to non-AP ammunition, really. Typical rounds are relatively soft nosed and deform readily against modern body armor (which is how these armors work). Any "AP" from rifle rounds against typical police armor is due to high energy and small diameter, not due to the rounds themselves being special in any way. Handgun rounds are not AP due to typically soft bullet construction and the wide diameter in comparison to the energies involved.

Being able to penetrate armor is being able to penetrate armor. It doesn't matter of the round is a tungsten submunition in a lead coating or not. As to MMGs, it was a balance concern. I suppose it could be a simple matter to shift the recoil modifiers to "LMGs have 1 free recoil comp, MMGs use standard rules, and HMGs have modifiers increased by 1".

#1: But it's not an inherent trait of the rifle bullet at all. It's the fact that typical police armor is not designed to stop higher energy rifle rounds. Police don't run into rifles a lot, unlike the military, so they're just not deemed a high enough threat to design heavier police daily-issue armor around the possibility of running into them. Of course, there is nothing stopping the police from buying and/or equipping such armor (or simply add-on plates to increase the protection) if they deem it necessary.

On a side note, I still disagree that the developers didn't just use the established USDJ Class system as a good basis to design the armor around (which is very easy to find if you just Google search) rather than the "Yeah, whatever..." system they used. They could have easily matched the weapons to the relative protection given by the armor class and ended up with more balanced system, IMO.

#2: Balance in comparison to what? You have a heavy, slow weapon that calls down the Wrath of Gawd Almighty whenever you use it. You have to get linked ammunition from limited suppliers, let alone getting the weapon itself, and believe me when I say that any police/CorpSec response to a call about a full-on machinegun being used will involve SWAT(-equivalents) and bad attitudes.

I guess this comes down to a style of play discussion. I go for more of the realio-dealio and most others are all for MGs and GLs being responded to by a couple of squad cars of Joe Blow cops/CorpSec looking to get dead rather than having those two cars starting a cordon so the Big Boys with the Bad Toys can take care of business direct-like via Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Action.

Balance in comparison to other machine guns. I just realized that there's no need to balance LMGs against assault rifles, if anything, they need a boost since they rely on a separate skill. As I said, it's a simple matter to change the recoil modifiers.

Regardless, with the way Shadowrun armor works, it makes sense. There's no differentiation between soft body armor and hard body armor besides higher armor ratings.

Well, since this is a forum, and I guess I'm in my rights to speak...not sure if I like it.

I mean, a sniper rifle doing 7P? THE Sniper rifle doing 7P? I've heard stories of people being shot with 50cal weapons, and the description was in the lines of ''blown apart.'' I'm not an expert on the things, but what i do know, that damage code is very accurate.

Have firearms overpowered in your game that much? Usually I, personally, would use these drastic changes if something continually went very wrong in my games; ie, I don't nerf unless the game is breaking. I mean, firearms are supposed to be deadly. I'm pretty sure a sporting rifle made to take down fairly big game is going to be more than 2 points worth powerful than a light pistol or holdout. I mean, you might well have a team of players who love playing firearms adepts so much...but this might change the game quite a bit. Also-don't forget for the opposition. Their guns will be weaker, so unless armor is weaker, no one will really even take damage from the things. (The barret model, in your rules, can possibly have trouble doing physical damage to someone with an armor jacket and level 1 form-fitting body armor, both not hard to get. 8 Ballistic +3 Ballistic=11-3 is 8. There is something...kind of wrong with that in my head. Armor should surely help, but when you're getting stunned by 50 cal rounds because they aren't strong enough...)

[again, this is coming from someone who loves melee characters, and would probably be much, much happier in a game with these rules. So I'm fairly unbiased here, I think.]

I can understand where you are coming from, I think, if you want to make your game less deadly(which, honestly, I have no problem with at all-to be even more honest we tend to play a bit more loose at our table as well; we don't have a massive body count unless people really start to screw up), I'm just wondering if your games have reached a level of deadliness that would warrant this.

I'm not trying to make it less deadly, I'm trying to bring it within the same parameters as heavy machineguns. I've always HATED the fact that sniper rifles are so much more powerful than the machineguns on an individual round basis when most modern sniper rifles are using the same rounds. It's not about nerfing the guns, it's about making them consistent. There's a lot of things in Shadowrun firearms rules that really irk me.

.50 BMG (Barrett ammunition) is actually a steel AP bullet with a copper jacket as it's "ball" projectile. It really doesn't come any other way unless you're going for civilian match-grade or hunting ammunition. Also, modern military ammunition is typically described as SAP (semi-Armor Piercing) with steel or heavier material penetrators for improved light body armor penetration, so most ARs and heavier mil-spec weapons shooting mil-spec ammunition will keep an AP rating of -2 or so.

As for the rest, I don't see a real issue. Most AP mods don't even average out to one hit. Those -1s and the occasional -2 don't even add up to much unless you're blowing Edge on the resistance check. Besides, this will help to make AP ammo all the more desirable if you're going after heavily armored targets, right? Maybe make those heavily armored guys a bit more to worry about?

I guess I could type up a quicky equivalent of USDJ Classes of armor with "Converts damage to Stun" being the main qualifier but that would depend upon interest in a more "realistic" protection rating from y'all to determine if it's worth my time or not.

So your making all the sniper rifles do same damage, did you consider at all that those snipers that are doing higher damage might be shooting more powerful rounds.
There is a difference between .308(what MMG:s fire) and .338 or .408 afterall.

Oh, indeed there is. But it's not "jumps up from MMG round equivalent to WELL past HMG equivalent" different.

Depends what the HMG really is? Is it a M2 firing .50cal's or just a .308? Judging by the numbers, it appears that HMG equals the normal sniper rifles indicating they are of about same caliber (.308 or .338ish). LMG is equal to AR's so that's also on the lines of both firing .223 or alike. That Barret sniper rifle is the "ka-byyym" gun that makes deep holes into stuff.

Who said that damage code is purely based on ammunition? Maybe weapon design has some effect there as well?

Bye
Thanee

The weapon design has an effect, yes. AR and LMG have the same base mechanics and are thus equal. Looks like just about all sniper rifles are semiautomatic as well, so their mechanism isn't that radically different vs. AR/MG's. So then it is partly by the caliber and partly because of the design of the moving parts and barrel design. Maybe one should instead add damage to sporting rifles, as bolt action is superior compared to semi/full-auto on the efficiency of getting the bullet out as fast as possible. Barrel length has also it's own effect but that has more to do with accuracy. Too long barrel can be a hindrance for the bullet, but that's mostly just the case on really small bore guns. But the bullet still has the most effect on the damage: The speed, mass, weight, hardness and [the word that describes how much the material gives in, which I can't remember now] give the characteristics of how much damage and piercing effect the given bullet has.

I'd just leave the damage codes as they are. Maybe add some more ammo types? A hunting/match round would be +1AP and legal. Military grade regular as the regular ammo now, but add it's availability +x and those SAP would be as mentioned, around -2AP, harder to get and forbidden, like APDS.

Bolt action is considered superior to semi-auto in precision and longer-ranged marksmanship weapons because it locks up harder and with more consistency then when compared to a semi-auto action (which really slams around inside the receiver). Any actual power or velocity (this is the first I've heard of it) lost due to the semi-auto action is so negligible as to be ignored.

Guess it's not that big of an issue in the modern firearms but if you want to make a really reliable gun for cheap, you gotta make it so that the gun's operation isn't hindered if there's a small stone in it (Ask the russians how to do it, they are experts on this). Who cares about the power if you can shoot after taking the gun out from whatever mud pool. But yea, the difference isn't that big, but if one wants to take all in account, that also counts. Just like wind And where all these little marginal things count: as you said, the long range shooting. Even the smallest variation takes a difference 1km+ but where most guns are used, it doesn't mean a thing.

Doesn't DV take into account accuracy as well a sniper built to fire one round acurtly will do more damage on average with the one round that one round from a HMG not due to ballistics but accuracy.

*sigh*... what is it w/ tons of posts lately w/ people w/ no idea of small arms trying to tweak the gun system to questionable ends.

OP's chart is completely arbitrary and I can't see any sense to it. Weapons designed to be heavier and bulkier w/ linked feed mechanisms specifically to lay down sustained fires are worse at it? Other's have already addressed this. Then there's other aspects... I've been present for pistols training where people trained on .22's unerringly hit their target their first shot, then they start trying to precompensate for the heavier recoil on the pistol and end up missing their next shot (which really doesn't matter at SA/SS ROF). It's completely mental, you need to train them to treat the heavy pistol the same as the light and get rid of that mental block.

Similarly, a SMG firing a pistol round automatically in a smaller lighter more compact package should be roughly as easy to control as a LARGER, HEAVIER, AR firing a light rifle round (look at the concealability chart). All the autos loose a little compared to the single shot variants because burst rules are so good and they easily make up for the lack in single round precision damage w/ volume of fire.

On the other side of the same coin, I believe sniper rifles have an edge over guns firing the same rounds simply because they're far more precise. Their damage code reflects a little bit of the you aimed for that gap/chink/joint in the armor you're more likely to hit the spot you aimed for. (the damcode increase for the sniper rifles over hunting rifles is fairly consistent as it is for barrett over the HMG).


Quite frankly, the only change I would have made in the rules would be to turn double recoil comp penalties around a little as regards MG's and heavy weapons. Heavy weapons need all that extra bracing yes... but the net result is that you take an Ares alpha because of it's 2 point inherent RC, after gas vent3 and other bits it can match the white night point for point in full-auto capability!! Then, anything uncompensated on the white knight counts double then?! Only advantage the white-knight brings then is belted ammo for drone use :(. Heavy weapons, especially MG's are designed for sustained automatic fire (most of them are FA only, unless you modify them to also support BF). The dev's are very clear there is no belt-fed mod for small arms, best you can do is drums, which after 4 mod space can manage 200 rounds in a drone (2 100rd drums).

I would have given AR's the double recoil penalty, left MG's w/o it. Then given SMG's a double recoil penalty if used one handed (game does a little bit of this when uncompensated recoil from dualling SMG's counts against both guns dicepools after the split, so it's not so bad. But I still think the guys firing 1 SMG, one handed, really should be using a machine pistol unless they have the recoil largely compensated for), EG: the guy w/ the ballistic shield in one hand and the SMG in the other.

ANYTHING pure mental should be a matter of the character's skill, not the weapon. However, on the note of the chart being arbitrary, I'd like you to point to a single value in any RPG that uses abstraction in it's rules which isn't.


That all depends on round fired and the specific weapon. However, since SR doesn't differentiate, an average needs to be taken. Also, light rifle round is misleading. 5.56mm is pretty light, sure, but how about 7.62x39mm? Sure, it's light compared to a full powered rifle round, but it's still way more powerful than any combat pistol round. A pre 74 AK series rifle is actually somewhat of a nightmare to control compared to any sort of pistol caliber longarm.


Oh right, I forgot that a .50 BMG round from a sniper rifle becomes damn near as good as a 20mm+ assault cannon round.

Some thoughts, if anyone cares...

SR makes pistols way too good compared to rifles and shotguns. There is a reason why cops go for shotguns and rifles despite the fact that they all have pistols. Pistols also don't have any real ability to penetrate any significant armor. With the right ammo they can penetrate some soft armor but can't go through hard armor at all. People typically have to be shot many times with a pistol to drop them in combat.

An average hit by an AR or Rifle is does a lot more damage than the average pistol bullet. ARs or rifles are hugely more effective in penetrating armor than a pistol or SMG.

A fairly close range shotgun with either buckshot or slugs does huge amounts of damage (the most until you reach HMG range) often making them Dead Right Now, but buckshot isn't very effective in penetrating armor and most slugs are not as effective in penetrating armor as an AR or rifle bullet.

Given the same ammo rifles are typically more effective in penetrating armor than ARs. Rifles have a lot longer effective range.

SMGs are significantly less deadly than ARs and are much less effective in penetrating armor. Which is why they are being phased out of service by most police and military units in exchange for ARs.

LMGs are ARs that fire at full auto, use belts and are designed for use with bipods and tripods. They have more range than ARs.

MMGs are much more effective at killing people than LMGs. That's why infantry units haul around the damn things and their heavy ammo. They are essentially rifles that fire FA, are belt fed and used with bipods or tripods. They typically can kill people at a KM or more.

HMGs are insanely deadly. They can shoot through concrete block walls and kill you. They can shred lightly armored vehicles. A single hit will often kill you, no matter where it hits. Even the heaviest body armor is pretty much useless. They are not very mobile (unless vehicle mounted) due to the huge recoil.

Light cannon rounds are able to tear up fairly heavily armored vehicles and destroy most fortifications. A hit will literally tear a person apart, no matter what armor you are wearing. They are typically only vehicle mounted.

*Points at kzt*

What he said. HMG also weigh damn near 100 pounds between the barrel and the receiver so they're not very mobile because... we don't have trolls yet.

You're thinking about this backwards. The problem has always been there, the Barret just makes it glaringly obvious. 9P-4AP is pretty fair for a .50BMG round. 7P-3AP is pretty low for an HMG. 10P-5AP is most surely not appropriate for a 20mm+ autocannon shell. The Heavy Cannon's 17P is laughable for a cannon that would be mounted on a Main Battle Tank.

These numbers are considerably better:http://www.dylanleigh.net/RPG/shadowrun.html#Armour_Concealability
I would make a few tweaks of my own to them, but they much better represent the effects of genuinely heavy weapons than the RAW. At least with these you won't have unarmored civvies surviving direct hits (in overflow) from a LAW. A high body troll can walk off after getting hit with 12P.

The values in the middle of the scale don't need to come down, the ones at the top of the scale need to go up. As it is currently, there really isn't much of a reason to carry one of the really big guns because they aren't much more effective and they can't be concealed at all. When I see a Gunbunny Adept carry something bigger than a pair of heavy pistols, then I'll reconsider.

Adding a touch of movie-ness here, me and my friends like to say watch the new Rambo movie. Yeah, it's over the top, but it gives you an idea of what an HMG does when it hits someone.

I do think the middle-ground guns are pretty well cared for in the game; the upper stuff indeed should go up, and the lower stuff MIGHT be able to come down a bit. I think that's some of the problem. Getting shot while armorless with a pistol isn't supposed to tickle, and people can and do die in one shot, but that can also happen by tripping and falling on a piece of metal sticking out of the ground that goes through your head, heart, or other vital organ. But you also hear plenty of stories of people surviving pistol shots. A regular Joe with regular Joe strength could take a regular old knife and with a lucky shot nail the artery in your leg to bleed you out rather fast. In-game, if this happened, it might be a situation of the regular Joe just rolling freaking awesome hits with Edge(lucky shot, say, 3 agility, 2 blades and 3 edge, and nails home 7 hits for 10 damage after it all), and you just roll nothing on the defense test. I COULD say that the heavy revolver damage is pretty accurate, though. Getting hit with one of them I hear is rather intense.

I have been down this road myself, Janice.

I had several pages of thoroughly-researched "fixes", when I realized something: The more fixes I wrote down, the more it looked like GURPS. At that moment, I decided I would accept SR4 for what it is, and if that didn't satisfy me, I would entirely switch game systems.

That is the problem. It's not that there are some minor tweaks you need to make to make it perfect, but that you have to largely gut the system to make reasonable.

Seems alright, I agree with everything except the bit about silencers.