For some reason, the whole 15 points Sensitive System quality was wearing on me a bit. Ok, not bad. It's a game. But somehow...I dunno, after I found out you could use bioware with it, it felt a liiitle cheaper for 15 points. I kind of missed the splitting up of Sensitive System/Bio Rejection, and figured this out:

Sensitive System
Bonus: 10 BP(5 BP for magically active)

As the book. Double Essence losses for cyberware. Bioware is still ok.

Now, it's 5 points less, but mages get a little less for it. Especially since that bioware adepts/mages are quite popular. I mean, it helps equalize adepts to sammies at the beginning; but they don't get QUITE the load of points for it than they did.

Bio-Rejection:
Bonus: 20 BP

The character simply cannot accept cyberware of any kind; their bodies forcibly reject it as if it were a bad organ. In addition, the only bioware that may be used is Delta-grade.

I figure this might add some spice to them and make people think more. Sensitive System is still a fairly cheap source of BP for the bio-adepts and mages, but they only get 5. Bio-rejection costs the same for both, because it is kind of a beating; this character cannot use Skillwires. (I considered allowing Delta-grade cyberware for this as well, however. With it's 10x cost, it might still be worth the 20 BP negative quality.) It can, however, be an option for those people who like to play a very old-school ''purist'' mage or adept...or just a very, very rich one. It also gives Adepts something to do with their nuyen later on. Any Adepts I played ended up living kind of large rather often.

Also, though, I was thinking about the physical adept again; and I do miss playing a ''purist'' adept, but yeah, the overcost powers that have been discussed here several times. I MIGHT have figured on a sweet spot for the costs, here.

Improved Physical Attribute:

Cost: .25/level up to Racial Max, .5/level after

Note: Adepts who also have bioware pay as if they are increasing the attribute by it's new rating(so an adept with 4(6) agility would pay .5 points.

This way, it seems to normalize with the cost of Muscle Augmentation/Toner/Bone Density(ok, that gives other benefits) and the like. An Adept that buys 2 levels of Muscle Augmentation and Toner each pays .8 Essence, lowering their magic to 5. If they instead pick up 2 levels of Improved Attribute(and say they are both at 4), they pay a total of 1 point of magic. Now, this doesn't lower the max like the others do, but given the fact it seems to be rare that people play characters that get buttloads of Karma to initiate and the like, this seems to normalize the cost a bit. If someone purchases Muscle Augmentation/Toner level 3, giving them 4(7) stats, they spend 1.2 Essence, or losing 2 points of magic. If they get these same stats via magic...it's still 2 points of magic(.1 to get each to 6, and 1 to get each to 7.)

I'll have to test it, but having them normalized seems like a pretty good deal here. I considered having them .5/points a level; but still, it's just ''more cost-effective'' to blast out the point of magic and get the bioware.

Also, I'm trying to decide on the ''sweet spot'' for the Reflexes. I considered either 1.5/2.5/4.5 points, but have them act exactly like the wired(1 Reaction and 1 pass per level), or 1/2/3 points; but no Reaction or Initiative enhancement; they only get the passes for this.

I don't see it overpowering adepts at the start; but if anything, it allows a more natural adept to at least keep up. As it is now, 2 points of magic can get them Muscle Aug/Toner 2 each(.8 ), a Synaptic Booster(.5), a Synthacardium 3(.3), and still have .4 essence left to spend. Ok, this costs a fair amount of nuyen(for the booster), but it did bother me that the only options an Adept had were to blow a lot of magic(or a kind of lot of magic with a Geas), or a crapload of nuyen, where a sam can get a pass for 11k and essence he's going to spend anyway.

Now, if I use the lesser costs for Improved Physical Attribute...I'd want to make Attribute Boost to be worth it again. So, it will look the same, but possibly read this:

Attribute boost may increase stats past the Augmented Maximum.

This way, it might get people to purchase more levels of it(increasing the Drain). For someone that only lasts Turns x2 hits, it seems fair enough. To get that Agility from 6 to 12 still needs 6 hits, which is rough to get on that test(Ive taken it before, I average 2-3 hits at level 2 power, 6 magic.)

I also considered, as more of a ''nerf'', which as many know I rarely do, limiting a few of the adept powers to rating 6(Kinesics, Critical Strike, Attribute Boost.) I mean, this is still a load of levels, and honestly, I don't even think I'd have to, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone even stack past this on people who initiate(they usually get other stuff.) I'll probably just leave them be; but it was just a thought.

So, thoughts? Are these doomed to fail? Possibly workable? It's sort of a series of mostly good things with a few little reign-ins(like the qualities).

I like the idea in general. I've always seen sensitive system as easy BP for a mage type, and with the huge number of bioware, geneware, and nano-tech out there, you still have plenty of other options, even if they are a bit expensive.

I also like the idea of bringing down some of the adept power costs to more closely match the essence loss of sammies for similar boosts. This helps even them out and allow for pure characters to have an easier time, but it should be noted that as you progress in the game the sammy is going to run into a hard limit of essence, while an adept can initiate forever. And since an adept doesn't have anything else to spend his money on anyway, he is going to be able to get roughly the same grade of equipment as a sammy, so perhaps lowering adept costs isn't such a great idea.

Also keep in mind that the four biowares you suggested isn't just expensive, it is most of your maxed out starting nuyen. 80k for the boosters, another 30k for the muscle stuff, and I don't remember how much for the synth, but I do remember it is alot.

Well, in the case of equaling, a Sam can indeed get that beta-grade ware; and Delta is very rare for either of them; so Adepts won't be able to pound down stuff willy-nilly. Also keep in mind they both do have their regular maxes-the Adept can only surpass their racial max with Attribute Boost. So eventually, both the Human Adept and the Human Sam might have their 9 agility's rather easily(indeed, they can start with these.) Synth is 10k/level, btw. The total for all of that is 140,000 nuyen. A bit over half. But not undoable.

Well, the whole Synaptic Booster thing is another little proverbial thorn in the side I have. Right now, there are three implant options; Wired Reflexes(cheap, high essence. Beta-grade, however, is affordable if you take the right jobs, AND pretty nifty.) Move By Wire(the best, pretty expensive, and you're in seizures.) And finally, Synaptic Boosters(cheap essence wise, expensive otherwise.) I miss Boosted Reflexes-last in performance, but affordable and not terrible Essence-hoggy(though the last level was bad.)

Keep in mind that for the Adept to surpass the Sam, you will have to play a long time. The Sam will probably have his money for an upgrade before the Adept initiates and gets more power points for a ''big boost''. He can reasonably get 1 initiation and 1 power point in a not terrible amount of time.

As for the sam's Essence cap, he can eventually, with nuyen, replace all of his cyberware with bioware; filling in the holes. You can get a *lot* of bioware for 6 points, not even Alpha. For example:

Muscle Augmentation 4(.8 )
Muscle Toner 4(.8 )
Bone Density Augmentation(1.2)
Synthacardium 3(.2)
Suprathyroid(.7)-keep in mind with the maxes, they probably won't even have Aug/Toner 4 AND this. More like Aug/Toner 3 and this to hit the max.
Synaptic Boosters Lv. 3 (1.5)

Total Essence: 5.2 If you take Aug/Toner 3 each, this is 4.8 There is still room for upgrade. Make this stuff Alphaware(over time, it's possible), and he has plenty of room for more upgrades. Hell, even some cyber stuff like Attention Coprocesser(even beta-grade not super expensive and can add to Perception.) The same can only take his attributes so high with Karma; he could well be popping other positive qualities as well. A sam with Born Rich and In Debt(ok, the latter is a negative quality that must be taken care of, but still-judging by some characters, it seems to be a popular choice), has up to 330,000 nuyen to spend. He can already, at the start, get everything on that list and Synaptic Boosters 1, and still have 50,000 nuyen left to spend at the end of it. Upgrading those boosters won't be super-bad in game. If you start mixing and matching cyber and bio, you could get even more and it wouldn't be that bad; switch it out and fill in the essence holes later.

The adept can load this too, but keep in mind he has to keep initiating and buying back magic if he does so, essentially slowing him down. EVENTUALLY, the Adept will probably pass the same, but...well, that's something that magic people have in general over the augmented. The adept blowing his money in game will sort of speed himself up in some areas but slow in others; and remember the caps in place. Keep in mind one other advantage a sam has; an Adept is affected by Background Count. Adept wanders into a place with a 4-5 background count, and unless his magic is 8 or so he's losing a LOT of his abilities.

EDIT: Forgot one other thing with adepts. I see what you are saying; yes, in theory, they can become more powerful. But there are other little things to keep in mind. For one, increasing Skills. To get their Enhanced Skill power, they also need to increase the skills they want to use with it as well with Karma, as the limit is Skillx1.5, round down. So the Adept that has, say, Blades 3, and wants Improved Blades 3 in game for 1.5, first needs to buy his Blades to 6(30 Karma), Initiatex2(X Karma), and then use those Initiations for Power Points(instead of metamagics), to get enough for the Improved Blades 3. I forget what 2 initiations cost, but this whole deal is around 60 Karma I'm guessing, with skill and initiation, total. Now, he can improve his blades further than the sam(who is limited to a Reflex Recorder-10k, .1 essence), but it does cost him to do it.

For Initiative Enhancers, I leave all but Wired Reflexes as they are in canon. With WR, I use FrankTrollman's suggested change ...

Level 1 - 1.0 Essence - 11,000
Level 2 - 2.0 Essence - 22,000
Level 3 - 3.0 Essence - 33,000

This seems to work out well for me.

I think Rating: 6 is a good cap for adept abilities. One of the things I have always disliked is that Magic is not hard-capped like everything else. I think that just like a sammie can only take so much deltaware, a mage or adept should only be able to initiate/raise Magic by a finite amount. Maybe cap initiation at 9 or so, with foci capped like programs are (6 is the normal max, while 7 or 8 is semi-legendary, difficult to either enchant or obtain, but still within the reach of a player who is very determined). And maybe rule that Force: 12 is about as high as spirits can get and still be controllable.

That would also make taking bioware for that bit of an edge meaningful again - instead of "Oh, I'll just get 5.99 points of 'ware and then initiate 6 times", it becomes something that permanently holds you back from the very uppermost levels of Magic. It might still be worth it (and I think 'ware should tempt adepts - I like it better when adept powers and 'ware aren't exactly the same, cost and effectiveness-wise), but at least there is more of a price to be payed for it.

I really like this idea. Granted most games aren't going to last long enough to see a mage initiating 10+ times, but I still like the idea of theoretical caps on magic, since everything else has those caps. I'd keep it to 6 initiations myself, just because everything else is limited at 6. That also explains why spells would be limited to force 12, magic beyond that level either doesn't exist, or is so crushingly powerful that it isn't going to generally happen. Now I'll grant you that there is limited insentive to have a magic of 12 as opposed to 11 if the biggest spell you can cast is force 12 anyway, but you know, I think force 12 spells are crazy enough on their own, we don't need force 24 which will obliterate any mundane.

Yes yes, I really think I like this, a blanket cap of 6 on all things magic same as exists on all things non-magic. Spells and spirits going up to force 12 max of course. Once again, not something likely to come into affect much in game, but magic is already so powerful, no need to give it infinite growth as an added advantage.

Remember that initiation requires deeper understanding of the forces of magic, not just a karma cost (though the costs do get insane after awhile, a grade 4 initiate with 10 magic who wants to go to grade 6 and 11 magic has to spend...58 karma, assuming 5 karma a run thats 12 runs). An initiate has to do something to gain a deeper connection to their tradition to initiate, and as they get higher and higher grade, this should be harder and harder. Thus it acts as a kind of way for the GM to cap magical abilities

That said, I usually prefer adepts to to get powers that do more then just get them huge dice pools. If you just want to be faster, tougher, and stronger, ware is easier then magic and most magic types(especially those who run in the shadows) are going to have to make some tough decisions about upgrading. I encourage my adepts to develop their own adept powers and metamagics that let them do cool things(I had a katana adept in a game that could throw their blade and direct it in flight until it came back to their hand for example).

I do agree that Wired Reflexes should be reduced in essence cost. The fact is, everyone who fights(eg. shadowrunners) needs multiple initiative passes, and unless you got some mojo or are relying on drugs(which is a slippery slope) you need augmentation. It shouldn't be a choice between 16 BP(and an inability to get 3 passes at creation) or a third of your essence(half if you want 3 passes which most samis will want).

By RAW that isn't really a viable option, considering how much nuyen and time Revitalization takes.(1075000 and 4 year 2 months for 5 points of essence)

Well, if the sam removes his Wired 3 Alphaware(for example), freeing up 4 points of essence, he can fill in those 4 points with Synaptic Booster 3(1.5), Muscle Augmentation 3(.6), Muscle Toner 3(.6), a Suprathyroid(.7), and a Synthacardium 3(.3), and still have .3 points left to play with to fill in with other things is what I'm saying. If these are all Alpha(yeah, expensive as hell at half a million but, it can happy), he's got even more room to plug stuff in; as long as the nuyen keeps coming, he can get better and better grades(if he just doesn't retire. ) I don't mean getting the essence back; I mean filling in the hole with lots more high-level stuff; a sam that ends up with a lot of nuyen for high-rated gear can really stuff himself pretty full.

EVENTUALLY, yes, the essence will run out, but if you mix and match bio and cyber at high grades, that can take a very long time. I could probably assemble a beta-grade list of stuff a sam can stick in himself that will probably leave him with room left.

By RAW you can't but bioware in a hole left by cyberware, thats the reason i said it's not viable, you need revitalization therapy to cure the hole first.

That's pretty strange...you can put bioware into a bioware hole, and cyber into a cyberware hole, but it all comes from the same pool of Essence.

I'd say you'd be allowed to do it, regardless, at my table. This way, sam get their upgrades, Adepts can play natural with a bit cheaper powers, and everyone's happy.

I would agree with you if i ever get to play, I was just pointing out what the RAW says about the issue.

The problem with using the hole as just a generic slot for whatever is that in the initial mix of bioware and cyberware, the lesser amount of essence cost between the two is counted at half value. So, for example, if you had 4 ESS points worth of cyberware and 2 ESS points of bioware, the bioware would only cost 1 ESS, for a total of 5. If you remove enough cyberware, it could become the lesser amount and now the bioware costs 2 again. Other examples could be given that show how one could kill a PC by playing around with replacement implants. I believe the 'aspected hole' system is in place to prevent the arithmetic problems that may ensue.

There is an earlier thread that discusses this at GREAT length.

Peter