OK, quick question for everyone: Do sensor software packages count as a sensor channel? They give information that the character normally doesn't have. For example: a Weapon Watcher sensor software program allows you to identify weapons and can help you know where the shooter might be and what possible ranges...



This seems to me to be a candidate for a sensor channel. Please let me know what you think.

I wouldn't allow it at my table for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it would not be in the spirit of the rules. The intention of Tacnet is to give bonuses to groups of characters who are working in coordination. Since runner teams often have to split up, and tend to just "send the sammie in", the rules as written favour squads of police officers, soldiers or corpsec. I believe this was intended as a way of making military units and the like a lot scarier.

Secondly, I don't feel that a single sensor could count as a channel. A channel really needs to be a cluster of different sensors working off one member of the team. Each participant in a Tacnet is essentially a channel, a source of input. The more sources, the better the results. I'd probably allow a drone with full sensor setup though (so long as their sensor package included audio & visual). In fact it would be nice to encourage non-riggers to bring a couple of basic sensor drones with full sensor setups to the party just to give them the advantages of "eyes in the back of their head".

No, they don't.

In fact, Combat Sensor Software is completly superseeded by a TacSoft, as a TacSoft is allowed to make such evaluations with Rating+Response (10 dice max), instead of just Rating (6 dice max) like a SensorSoft.

• the maximum augmented rating is 1.5x(base rating)(rounded down)
• each sensorsoft adds only +1 to the rating (must be running multiple different softs for better results)
• the sensorsoft rating must be at least equal to the augmented rating of the tacnet to count
• every member of the tacnet must be running the minimum number of softs (not necessarily the same softs) or reduce the bonus for all
• the appropriate number channels must be provided
• the bonus provided is still limited by the number of members of the tacnets

This could, however, rub the game balance in the wrong way; all in all the game is about having fun so do what is most appropriate for your group.

.......... Hey, where did I put those 0.02 ?

Then why are things like Vision Magnification counted as a channel then?

@Rotbart: actually, you are incorrect. From page 127 of Unwired:



Is this proof that sensor software is counted as a sensor channel?

So much for my post; I must learn to read better.

Anyway, what I don't get is the porpouse of this thread, why did KCKtsune ask if he/she knew the answer? (aside for enlightening us, for which I'm gratefull)

No, it is just proof that TacSofts are useful even without a team to provide dice pool boni, as per p. 126 - they are best at processing information.

The reason why a TacSoft completly superseedes Weapon Watcher (and similar software) is:

Gah! OK, ignore my reply above, I clearly entirely misunderstood the question.

I would personally argue that, judging by the example given in Unwired, only sensor hardware counts as a channel, not sensor software. All of the examples given are hardware, and their inputs are apparently fed directly into the Tacnet software. Essentially hardware is the sense itself (like your eyes or your ears) and the software is the assessment (ie, your brain, in the purely biological example I'm trying here).

On the other hand one could argue that someone running a simrig off their natural senses should still be able to contribute channels; the simrig converts the data from their senses into a format that can be processed digitally, which they then feed into the Tacnet. Arguably, however, metavariants with extra senses would not add extra channels for them, since these senses are a permanent part of how they percieve the world, so the software would not be able to assess the different inputs (regular version vs thermographic vision) seperately as it could with input from cybereyes or a set of goggles. It would recieve a single visual stream from the simrig which would include the thermographic data mixed in with everything else, same as how the Troll sees the world normally. This would also presumably apply to an adept running a simrig with enhanced sense powers, because despite being able to engage or disengage the power, the simrig wouldn't be able to distinguish the layers of the input; it just recieves what the brain recieves.

QUOTE

Natural Senses: Visual, audio, or olfactory senses recorded via simrig each count as a sensor channel. Natural enhancements such as low-light and thermographic count as additional senses.

Cybernetic Senses: Any visual, audio, olfactory, or other sense acquired via cybereyes, cyberears, olfactory booster, orientation system, etc. Sensory enhancements such as low-light, thermorgraphic, smartlink, ultrasound, radar, spatial recognizers, and so on each count as a separate sensor channel.

Sensor Systems: Data acquired from worn, carried, or mounted sensor systems of various types (cameras, microphones, range finders, motion sensors, etc.) may also be contributed to the network as a sensor channel. Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating.

Unwired (p.125) states explicitly that natural senses feeds count as a channel and natural vision enhachments (low-light, termografic, ecc.) count as additional channels.

Can explain me how to use the quote windows, there's something that evades me about 'em!

You press "Quote post" then type your message under the {quote name='blah'}quoted message{/quote}

*NOTE* i used the {} so it would not parse text

AllTheNothing, I asked the question in the OP because I thought that someone with the Sensor Softwares would have an advantage over someone who didn't. As for my gender, I am a guy.

Now this may be off topic, but what does the Sensor Software packages do for you then? If you have the software packages and Tacnet software, does it do ANYTHING, or am I just wasting my .

Also what does the sensor software packages do for you if you don't have tacnet? I mean you have to have rating 6 just to have a decent chance to get 2 hits. At rating 1, you might as well not bother.

I could be off-base but I've always played it as if Sensor Software were a person able to spot things happening on a feed. While it would take sensors to detect and predict the movement of a target person, for example, the weapon watcher could identify what weapon they held/fired and Empathy software could identify nonstandard emotional states such as being high on novacoke.

Again, I could be off base but thats the way I've always perceived them to interact.

Indeed. All it does is making Perception Tests - of course, without being distracted.

What dice pool would you use for Sensor software's perception test? Also does a cybereye with Vision Enhancement add to that dice pool?

The reason I ask this is I sorta went "crazy" when I bought those programs. I made a character with the following in alpha grade: left hand (with an included datajack, biomonitor, and auto-injector), eyes, & ears. With 6 pieces of cyber clustered together I got a "commlink" of Response 4 and a program limit of 12 before I start losing Response Rating. I can run ALL of the sensor software packages at rating 4 and still have room for two more programs. I decided to buy most of them at rating 3 (only costs 5400 and I think that it's something that I character might need )

Rating only.

Then how do they help with anything? If you have a rating 1 or 2 package then your odds of getting even a single hit are small. I would think that Response + Rating would be more fair... and more inline with other programs.

Also do you think that vision/audio enhancement would add dice for their respective tests?

My vote goes for rating + response (or at very least rating x 2) and no, I would rule that a vision/audio enhancement just improve the channel to which it is applied (or if prefer it provides a channel that supersedes the original channel).

Sorry KCKtsune but I hadn't thought about checking your profile before posting, no second meening was intended.
Just hope it didn't go trought as an insult.

Congratulations, you just figured out a general problem with low rating in SR4.

Other Programs use Skill+Rating, or Rating if they are running unattended.
Only special cases use System + Rating or Response + Rating.

But the rules for Sensor Softs use Rating only - read them.

OK, I read them... still seems quite stupid for so little effect. Now a question for you Rotbart: If I had an agent monitoring the data from the sensor software, would I add in the agent's rating to the dice pool? If so then I know what I'm doing.




No problem AllTheNothing, I didn't take any insult from your posts.

Once again I find myself siding with the fox.
Sorry Rotbart but while RAW states to use the rating as DP that just sucks at its porpouse at low rating, and barely mediocre with the top of the line; at rating 6 (for 3000 ) is six dices, which most of time will grant something like 1-3 hits, but if we apply the dued modifiers (fog, crowds, camosuits, erratic movement of the camera, etc.) and/or uncooperative subjects that actively try to avoid detection (disguises, infiltration, palming) the effectiveness of the software goes down the tube.
I would say that the sensor/device rating of the camera (or whatever spits out the feed analyzed) + the software rating (which is capped by response) representes a nice way to handle the matter; you put up a surveillance system by pairing devices with softwares that controls the feeds so that you don't need to someone that checkes them, if you use RAW your making no difference of the hardware used (the wizest tech and the cheapest dreck work the same) and you are pitting 6 (probably less if the runners are competent) dices vs probably 12 (you know top of the line software should logicaly come to play when you hit the serious buisness, and when you hit that you think that corps use security system that a merely competent runner can defeat without much problem? after the second time you shot the smartass that came up with the idea and hire more spiders).
Seriously rating 6 software should be part of a rating 6 challange: something that should be face with serious skills, attributes and equipment, unless you want to entrust the life of the runners to the hands of fate (ergo you want dead runners).
OK I've rambled too much!
My point is RAW is rating alone, but I say device + rating and call it a houserule.

Now guess what - that's the case with lots of equipment.

The worst case is fake identifcation.

It reduces the chance of missing simple things. Imagine it like this: A five-man runner team ALL run Weapon Watcher (rating 6) software and have the software inform their tacnet. That means rolling a DP of 6 a total of 5 times and thanks to the Tacsoft they all benefit from the one member who had the software that rolled well.

Its a lot of dice rolling but considering it costs next to nothing its a pretty good little boost to the *average* result on interpreting that feed and its costs next to nuthin'.

Except to run it at rating 6 you need a rating 6 commlink or you need to have that program optimized to run on weaker ones.

Yes but this piece of software is supposed to work alone, lets you use mass produced drones and obiquitus cameras to keep an eye on a location without rolling an army of guards; in this way you can monitor area that you normaly couldn't and you do it continuosly without disrupting the normal flow of life of your employes. All of this works only if the software is effective, if not it's only a waste of resources. Rating 3 is considered professional level, which meens that it is supposed to be used for profetional uses in profetional settings, yet a rating 3 soft has a dp of 3 dices, let me take a Joe Wageslave with an intuition of 2 that spends some of his time play "Spot the differences" on the matrix (perception 1) and you have the same dp, hardly professional; fluf-wise high end soft should be able to recognize a person from the way he/she sneezes, IMHO that is beyond the potential of a rating 6 soft but rating 6 shouldn't be useless either.
For the equipment sucking a would point that euipment usualy either gives a bonus to skill tests (assisting a character in the task) or have their rating used as dp and pitted against another device rating with comparable dp; personaly I think is better rating x 2 vs rating x 2, but again this is a house rule.

With this I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong, I'm just telling that I consider this a spot in the rules flawed.

It's not a spot in the rules that is flawed, it a pretty common problem with devices.

TacNets do a whole lot of traking and computation in order to provide their bonuses, all of which is rolled into the abstract construct that TacNets are; lets be honest, do we know how the 'Nets churn out their bunusses? No we don't, we were told that TacNets COULD grant certein bonusses (at GM discrection), we don't need to know how things work, we need to know the results.... which creates alot of ambibuity, by the desriction Weapon Spotter should be alredy built in into the 'Net, yet they say TacNets take advantages of sensor softs. This ambiguity, along with confusing implementation rules, that causes most of problems; in my hopinion the best way to handle the interaction betwen TacNets and sensorsofts is to rule that TacNets do take advantage of sensor soft but this is not enough to alter the bonusses provided by the TacNet (just fluf).

To finish I would like to point that sensorsoft were developed for patroling the streets or monioring buildings, to allow drones and sensors to make perception tests on their own; if the dp is only their rating said dp will be destroied by various modifiers in no time, now if someone makes just an effort to bypass the system they become useless. The rules sensorsoft is just flawed.

hey we are agreeding to each other!!

Don't worry I'm sure that the problems will be hammered out in time by comunity work (a new edition will rise from the sweat of our foreheads).

How do I know? Because I a dragon..... either that or that I'm not drunk enough to be sober