Scaling programs and hardware over 6. Examples are given in Unwired for up to 9 I believe but no costs or availability. UV Nodes state that rating 10 minimum system. This leads me to believe in keeping with current rating system for cost and availability 1-3/4-6 that it would continue as such 7-9/10-12. Now In some ways I understand why they only hinted at these ratings for hard and software but as at least one current player has made abundently clear, if it's mentioned a player is going to want it. Now I in no way advocate giving him any of this stuff off the shelf and it will either be incredibly costly or take a serious run to retrieve. But as a guideline I'm curious how folks would stat its cost/availability. Currently for software I'm scaling is rating 7-9 x 10,000 and rating 10-12 x 100,000. Availability not really needed at its more of a plot point. Something similar for hardware but it doesn't scale so cleanly due to low ratings being so cheap respectively.

Now onto "Why can't I make/program it, I have a 7 skill, run a cracker gang and am worth several hundred K?" Well other then interval time constraints whats a GM to do?

If you have TMs in your game who can have bigger DPs than hackers then I'd allow better programs for hackers too.

This is one of the reasons I'm willing to entertain this argument.

First of all, you need hardware rating above 6 to run this software. This bleeding edge hardware might not be compatible with normal hardware architecture. It might be experimental hardware, bigger than the average commlink, or less stable. And if you want to develop that software, you'll need more than one of those machine.

As for the developing in itself, keep in mind that the interval doesn't make it just longer to program: the technology keeps on pushing forward while you're programming it. So if you take too long, your bleeding edge program might have actually lost some rating since you started working on it, especially if you're working on a hacking/security software.

This is why mentioned hardware as well and I'm for making it harder to obtain and maintain, just looking for value and level of difficulty that others would assign.

I'd say no availibility, you can't buy it. You either have to make it, spending a lot of time on R&D or paying people to do it. Or, you could do a run against a corp that has such a system. Figure out a way to take it from them. Live down the heat of having their big shiny toy taken from them. Not to mention just cause you have the hardware, you'd still have to break into it and make it yours.

If the player really wants it then create a plan for him to acquire it. Create runs where they have to steal hardware from experimental corp labs along with doing some "favours" for key people in order to get key tools and/or information that they need to proceed with their project. You have an opportunity here for having PC goals be the impetus of an adventure or series of adventures.

One thing that I think is probably being overlooked by many SR GM's is the system of earning equipment as a reward. Too often GM's just give players money until they can make the Etiquette roll to acquire whatever neat piece of equipment that they want. I believe this creates equipment that is far less memorable to the player than if they had acquired it directly through actions. When your PC's are asking their contact for that wicked new gun and they make their Etiquette roll, remember that their contact may not actually have the item but may know where they can get one.

If I can risk being banned by relating SR to a fantasy RPG for a moment... very few fantasy RPG GM's that I know allow players to simply "buy" powerful magical items, they must be acquired through some arduous task. Therefore I would like to have SR GM's start thinking about rare SR items (Availability 12+) as the "magic items" of SR. Those rare and precious items should almost always be the subject of an entire adventure in and of themselves.

Deckers are back baby!

Actually that might be a fair restriction on the rating 7 stuff. It'd still be wireless with the matrix but it'd be a fullsize oldskool deck, and maybe require a proper datajack hookup. Being to tempermental for skinlinks and the like.

However yes as you allow this stuff you're fundamentally shifting the hacker/TM power balance.

"Because rating 6 is plenty, you powergrubbing asshat?" would work for my response.

No, seriously.

I thought the same thing as i was reading this thread! Any hardware that's 7+ probably just can't get crammed into a tiny commlink, and so you'd need a larger/more dedicated system to run it. Likewise, yeah, any programs that are rated 7+ were probably designed and prototyped on large corporate/military mainframes and not DESIGNED to be used (at least until they're no longer SOTA, at which people they get kicked down to the black/consumer market after a few years) on any regular user's system.

"Yes, you are a shadowrunner. No, you can't have all the neat toys, because those are reserved for megalomaniacs. If you had the money to purchase a bleeding edge military computer mainframe, you'd have the money to retire from where your job where you get freaking shot at all the time."

How can you say this when the 3rd SR Denver Mission has a system with a Firewall of 10?

Because a 10 rating in 3rd was chumptastic when compared to a rating 10 in 4th?

not the SR3 campaign, the third mission in the SR4 campaign

iirc, that's the firewall for trying to hack into a crazy ares server

Maybe because ares is an AAA megacorp and thus, actually feasibly has rating 10 firewalls?

here is my 0.02 worth on the topic.

rating 6 is plenty for a commlink. Think of a iPhone (or BlackBerry). 6 is plenty for one of those devices.

now a "server" aka "mainframe" or whatever term you want to you for some corporate server, I can see being about a 6. Then again you are not carrying it around in your pocket. It would be something that would be racked/stacked in a data center, with cooling/power restraints, etc. It does say in the books somewhere (I dont have them handy nor the page reference) that there could be larger than a 6 on "military" or "large corporate" servers.

I am lucky this hasnt happen to come in my my game(s) yet. Because my players read "rating 6 is max" and left it as is.


again this is just my 0.02 worth of opinion...

I´m blessed with a group that can be told that "4 is the norm". You can have a few special things that are better (Stealth 6 Optimised-3 is almost a must-buy), but rating 6 is supposed to stay special. Now if you permit TMs/mages to go for max resonance/magic, you could permit hackers to a) count their specialisation bonus for max. program ratings, and b) let them find a group that codes on that level and wants the hacker to join in.

So maybe that ultra-secret smallish coder group provides Exploit-7, Analyse-7, and Decrypt-8. The player can bring whatever the char specialises in, and recieve copies of the other programs. Full of adventure hooks, and a reason for true hackers to have high logic and software skills.

Not necessarily. The Optimization Program Option allows you tu run Programs up to System x2.
Due to System being limited to default Response, this means that Response 6 allows you to support up to rating 12 Programs with Optimization 6.

There are canon examples of Signal 9, Response 8, Firewall 9, System 8, IC 8, and Analyze 8 (Signal in SR4, the rest being Zurich Orbital according to Unwired)

For most things I am firmly in the camp of "if it exists it should be available," (albeit at very high cost, so the price increases should be exponential for rare things). Looking at the exponents underneath the existing pricing, and simplifying the results a little for play I derived costs (and Availability) for Rating 7 Matrix gear:

• Response: 32,000Â¥ (Rating×3)
• Software:
  • Common Use: 2,000Â¥ (Rating×2)
  • Hacking program: 16,000Â¥ (Rating×3)
  • Agent/IC/Pilot: 32,000Â¥ (Rating×4)
  • Other software: 8,000Â¥ (Rating×3)

For ratings above 7 double the cost for each rating.

I left out signal, since that is covered by radio towers and satellite uplink for ratings above 6.

——————————
As for Coding your own, unless I am mistaken there are no RAW limits on coding programs above rating 6. Having said that, I would double the Threshold multiplier, and make each single Rating point increase a separate test.

So to raise a hacking program from 6 to 7 would require 28 hits, raising it again to 8 would require another extended test requiring 32 hits, etc.

Edit:
Given the difficulty, I don't expect a runner would have the time to code/maintain more than one program, so Ryu's idea for a hard to find (and join) hacker group where each member has their specialty, and they share the results amongst each other would work well.

... or to invest some 40K into a program-o-bot commlink cluster and agents with the profession (software) autosoft, all maxed out and optimised, naturally.

This is an area where I feel that Knowledge skills appropriately fit the bill (and why complimentary skills should have been in game since the get go). Technical Skills, such as Software, involve tried and true methods of accomplishing a goal. If you look at what you learn in most basic College courses and all Technical schools, you are taught the knowns of the universe. The rating 1-6 so to speak. You may be intorduced to some theory, but honestly you are not going to be dealing with theory so in depth to be creating it. A 7 Software Specialized character is going to know all the tricks and neato abilities to make any sort of program possible, but the extreme esoteric developement of the field will still be beyond them. Now if they take time to start developing theories of their own and testing them (read: Purchase high levels of various knowledge skills), they are well on their way to developing revolutionary (Read: Ratings 7+) programs. This brings the possibility of the specialist to revolutionize thought on how to exploit code, or get the most out of it. They then have to actually make and test it, which would require massive computing power (read: Not off the shelf commlink....off the shelf being, rating 1-6) and heaps of time. At the end of this, you have a program that is SOTA and available. This si not the kind of thing an Agent can do, nor the kind of thinking one can glean from a datasoft. This is the work of the best and brightest. That's why Corps scout colleges for the greatest thinkers. That's why shadowrunners extract researchers. It is the realm beyond fuzzy logic and computer brains. It is as much creative art as it is hard science. Of course, there is no RAW to support this thesis outside of the fact that the Devs have limited all examples of such programming to being solely controlled by the Corps and Government who have either the think tanks that develope and maintain the research or the funds to lease such knowledge from the corps. This is also a solid example of why the Devs don't have stated out tanks, fighter jets, and other military hardware; it is beyond the (current) scope of the game and is thus left ot GM fiat. As for the value of these properties, that's hard to say. Clearly they are much more valuable than that of the normal programs. I would go so far as to make them 10000 times more valuable and increase the interval and threshhold to program such utilities to at least double if not tripple the time. In short, make it much like Enchanting (which it is for the Matrix) in that the intervals are often beyond what a normal game would run. Because really how much fun is it for the hacker character to sit there and roll out 50 rolls to try and accumulate the necessary successes to complete a program. In the year or two it takes him to make it, the team has found some other hacker to replace him and is now ready to retire. And if the corps catch wind of the Hackers problem, they are likely to steal his work and possibly kidnap him to come work in their labs.

Ah but because memory, storage, and processors are all hand waived in 4th ed... I can carry a portable Mainframe in my pocket.
Ergo I can carry a firewall rating 10...

Btw... even a firewall rating 10 system doesn't do well against a stealth optimized starting TM...

Sure it does... stealth optimized TMs generally suffer smaller hacking pools. Against a hacking optimized TM, they can usually break through even a 10 firewall (with admin access, so 16 effectively) before it can spot them.

Yes... well I ran the 3rd SR Mission (4th ed)... and the Stealth Optimized TM did a slow hack on the firewall... for admin access.

The wall never knew what hit it when the TM threaded himself to all kingdom come and proceeded to go in with something like Stealth 12 and Attack 10... his summoned and bound sprites that he did first thing in the adventure helped of course.

The poor Ares system didn't stand a chance.

Thats what you get for giving him a few hours to do a slow hack. Even rating 6 stealth program and a hacker could probably have gotten past it. Firewall 10 would need complimentary analyze 8+ to reliably bust rating 6 stealth.

It's missions... it gives a timeframe for whats going to happen. There's very few times where I could see you needing to hack on the fly.

No security around connection to the network at all? No guards that patrol? They didn't notice the guy over in the corner slumped in full VR for a few hours?

Tell me where in the mission it says this thing is not on the matrix?

I think they though that the firewall 10 would be a deterrent... it wasn't.

The personnel files of ares, just chilling live connected to the matrix, directly?

No. They don't specify anything other than "the personnel files of Ares". To me, you'd have to actually get into an areas building to gain access to the link with that data.

By the same token, tell me where it says that it is on the matrix.

Simple...

it's Shadowrun Missions.

If you're supposed to actually raid Ares HQ, then information on raiding the Ares HQ would be in the mission.

It's not. Just the info on the node, ergo you have to hit it from the Matrix.

Also note that Ares will run a trace and dispatch Knight Errant.

If I were Ares and somebody had broken into my facility to hack my computer. Running a trace and then dispatching Knight Errant? On campus security should handle it. And if they're incommunicado, you send the HTR teams, not Knight Errant cops.


Also, there is no info on the node being in a room with RF inhibiting paint, and it has a signal of 6 so it's accessible from as far away as 10 KM.

My bad. And since they don't list clothing in the items the contacts have, they must run around naked too! How do they launch a trace? They don't have any IC or Deckers statted either! Oh, and it doesn't say you have to find the node either, so you just logon to your matrix, and just pull up the equivilent of "www.areshrdept.com" and get to work! In fact, it doesn't even mention any IC, so even if you did get caught, they can't start a trace because they have no one to start it with, and, even so, they don't even kick you out, and let you keep rummaging around in thei files until KE is able to get to where you're at. Of course, once you've spend a virtual eternity in their system (1-2 minutes in hot VR), you can just log out, spoof your comm id, and get some coffee down the street.


In fact, you could do this with a rating 1/1/1/1 commlink with an exploit program of 1, and browse 1. Why? Because they don't even kick you out when you're detected. And have absolutely no IC to speak of. Hell, with that kind of security, you could just edit yourself into their HR files, and start getting a paycheck.

I'm to lazy to reread all the post for a check but, did anyone point the Ottimization option (Unwired p.115) allowes to run up to rating 12 on a response 6 comlink?

Running a penetration of an Ares facility would not fit within the 4 hour targeted time limit of Shadow Run Missions. Are you familiar with them at all?

http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/

There are entire sections about things to assume that NPCs have and things they don't have. For instance, all the ratings of an unstatted commlink are (Tablerating/2)+1. If they thought that the PCs would have to run a penetration of the Ares facility to hack the node that they spent half of one paragraph summarizing, then they'd have given more details. They didn't.

And if they had, they'd have blown the allotted convention time slot limit of 4 hours. Yet this node is apparently important enough to put it into a module, give it a firewall of 10 and let the hackers at it. They even put 10 points of paydata in the thing and gave it a cash value for after the mission sales.

The module itself takes place over about 16 hours of game time. If the players had planned a physical penetration of an Ares facility and done it, in a home game, I'd have given them bonus karma. The maximum karmic reward for this particular mission was 7 with great roleplaying.

I brought up the rating 10 firewall because this was about exceeding rating 6 on anything program wise. Since they did it in the missions games, which should be vetted by the same people who make the RPG, its quite possible that the ratings of programs may exceed 6. Because they also handwave hardware storage, bandwidth, etc for 4th edition, everybody carries a super-computer in their pocket that they paid no more than about ¥20,000 for.

When I read this in the core book:

I see little problem in having it exist, and no problem adding some house rules adding requirements for it's development or aquisition.

Looking through Unwired, the only two places I remember having hardware higher than 6 were an Azzie facility and a Zurich Orbital ground station, both of which is going to have multi-million, if not billion nuyen, IT and development budgets.

A fully decked out commlink at 6, before programs, costs a little under 17000, with all rating 6 programs (not counting the new ones in Unwired) it jumps to just under 100k . That's at mass market pricing (or as close to mass market as high end and hacking software gets), taking full production runs for hardware, volume sales, etc. for reducing the end user cost. That isn't going to happen when it's prototypes or custom-built hardware.
I see it something like this, a console game these days can run more than 2 million dollars to make, so at $60, even if it was pure profit, would need to sell over 30,000 units to gross 2 million, and the game probably wouldn't be considered a rating 7+ program. If a hacker has a million nuyen to burn, I could see a possibility of being able to buy rating 7 hardware and some programs to make full use of it.

Since 1-6 covers what is fairly available on the market (legit or pirated) for hardware and software, I'd say if you want something at 7+, I see 3 straightforward ways you could go about getting it: (to reduce the size of the post I'm putting my thoughts on each in spoiler tags)

1. Raid on a Corp development/research lab.

2. Have a high rated contact in the right corp/shadow group (at least 5 connection rating) and you pay black market prices for it (the guy's most likely risking his life to get it to you).

3. Find a way to write it yourself.

Lastly, don't forget that new items/programs are always being developed, so that SOTA response chip you put in today could be the norm 6 months later. I'd degrade the rating on Response by 1 every 6 or 12 months of gametime until it's at 6 to reflect new hardware released.

On a slightly related note, as a house rule, I would apply a rating to Lifestyles (1 for Street, 6 for Luxury), average (rounding to nearest) which ones you were at after a year in game, and if you have any legal programs or commlink ratings above the average, you have to pay to keep them there.

Using something like this would give you a way to calculate the cost for keeping a rating 7 system and programs at 7, once you developed a cost structure.

As a quick touch on the Missions discussion, to probe the node you make a Exploit+Hacking(16, 1 hour) extended test (assuming your in VR) just to get basic access (the threshold is 22 if you want admin rights). If you average 4 hits, that's 4-7 hours to break into the node, as apposed to on the fly at (10, 1 IP) or (16, 1 IP) for admin (about 2 combat turns). Depending on how much time the rest of the mission has already taken, you may not have time to probe the target, so you risk the system's Analyze+Firewall (Stealth, 1 IP) test to detect your hack (which would likely start a trace if you triggered an alert). Given the nature of the module, limited play time, and with the given information, I don't see why this wouldn't be a matrix accessible node for the Denver Ares corp office (I think that's were that mission takes place). Heck, given the description given in previous posts, I wouldn't even have IC or spiders reveal themselves until a trace was completed, if then; just backhack the commlink to provide a location and guide KE in for the capture.

Yes, I know what they are.


Does it say to assume they are clothed? If not, do you assume they aren't?


My point, is such that because it is a missions game, they have chosen to have it on the matrix. I think, from a game standpoint, especially with how they'd handle it (trace and send KE) that its utter bullshit. As I said, a solid rating 1 commlink could be used to probe and hack the node, and get the information out, as well as hack around and edit pretty much whatever you wanted. With a rating 1 commlink. Due to area, a AAA megacorp, being too stupid to apparently employ security deckers or IC in their HR node.


So, what do you do if they ask whats next to the building not described? Go, "Uhh, well... uhhh.... its in the city... so... theres part of the city next to it." What if they want to meet at a coffee shop to plan things out? "It doesn't say there are coffee shops so you can't do that."
Sounds to me like you let yourself get boxed in by what the missions game explicitly states exists, and put on blinders to anything else that could possibly be. It doesn't say if the node is on or off line. Thats your call to make.

Looking at the adventure... 1800 is when they meet. They have until 900 the next day, to get it done. Thats 15 hours. Assuming it takes about an hour for the meet, and then another hour before they even hear about the ID, they have 13 or so left. Its a threshold 16 test to get into the ares node. Up to 22 if they want admin access. (It also doesn't specify what kind of access they need to the node to get the info). Depending on what their hacking pool looks like, they might not be able to even get in in the time constraints. I realize you don't like that a rating 10 firewall is so easy to break into, but when the designers of the mission are so horrible as to say "well, its just sitting online for you to probe" basically is saying "I want you to hack this and theres no real consequences to doing so.


Firewalls are not programs. They are a software attribute of a node. Your example fails for even your stated purpose.

Also, how does handwaving storage and bandwidth equate to computers can run programs of huge complexity? Oh, look, we made good hard drives and networking protocols, so obviously that makes computers run programs better. Sorry, I don't buy it. Especially since the basic 1-6 programs you run, tax your system and can cause penalties if you run too many of them.

On the sescond part, note the optimization and ergonomics options which mean that you can run up to systems * 2 programs of system * 2 rating.

On the first point, it seems pretty odd to say that Firewalls are not programs. You write them with the software skill. It is a somewhat odd programs as it does not use program options (it is always running and does not count against limits, nor is it limitted) but it is software independent of a node. I can see maybe saying it is not a "program" the way the rules use the term. But it is not an "attribute of a node." It is a separate piece of software.

Joel

Actually, it is an Attribute of a Node. Node Attributes include Signal, System, Response and Firewall.

Tarantua, stop being deliberately antagonistic.