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dirkformica
If I have the Shock Hand with pads in the knuckles, and Bone Density/Lacing, and I punch an enemy, would I be doing both the 6S(e) (€“half impact) of the Shock Hand as well as whatever Physical damage my punch would cause due to Bone Density/Lacing?
Coldan
QUOTE (dirkformica @ Oct 23 2008, 03:44 AM) *
If I have the Shock Hand with pads in the knuckles, and Bone Density/Lacing, and I punch an enemy, would I be doing both the 6S(e) (�€“half impact) of the Shock Hand as well as whatever Physical damage my punch would cause due to Bone Density/Lacing?


You only do one type of damage. Either the physical damage through your unarmed attack or the damage through the shock hand.
awolfromlife
I don't have the books in front of me, but If I remember correctly all you need is to touch a target with shock hand in order to stun them. So if I was doing an on the fly ruling I would have to say yes b/c the moment the pads hit succesfully they would have to resist the stun and and the damage from the follow thru punch.
Karaden
While it makes sense for you to be able to do damage with a punch, and shock someone with shock hands at the same time, there are two problems with this.

First and foremost is balance issues. Take for example the stick-n-shock. It does only the e damage, and not any damage from a bullet hitting a person. Also the idea of doing large P + e damage on top of it is simply overpowered.

Now for the real world backing. It is reasonable to assume that in order to do the full damage with shock hands, you have to actually touch the person for more then a split second. Punching someone generally doesn't allow for this because they tend to move away very quickly. Tasers for example take a moment to properly zap someone. Even cattle prods simply sting slightly if you only touch them to someone for a split second, it requires holding the electric stream to them for a moment or two to get the kind of damage that 6S(e) represents.

So there you have it, good reasons both for the sake of the game, and the sake of real world physics for why they wouldn't stack, how rare.
DocTaotsu
You get a (I think +2) DP bonus for trying to get a "touch attack" rather than an actual strike. That's my, perhaps shaky, explanation of why you choose one or the other.
Fortune
Put me down for a 'no' as well.
kanislatrans
I'm in the no camp as well.

Placing an electronic device between two solid objects and applying lots of force at lots of velocity leaves you with one broken glove. At least that's how I explained it to our troll adept. He seemed to accept the answer(although he did pout for a while). wobble.gif
Karaden
QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Oct 22 2008, 09:56 PM) *
I'm in the no camp as well.

Placing an electronic device between two solid objects and applying lots of force at lots of velocity leaves you with one broken glove. At least that's how I explained it to our troll adept. He seemed to accept the answer(although he did pout for a while). wobble.gif


I considered adding that to my argument, but the delicate electronics are all going to be on the back of the hand or somewhere they won't get broken. All you need to transmit the charge are two pieces of metal, and metal isn't usually considered fragile. They could easily be rivets or something similarly durable.

However, I'd imagine that the standard shock glove doesn't have something like that. In fact I'd be willing to bet that the standard shock glove is set to shock from the palm of the hand, and not the knuckles, which is just one more reason the two wouldn't stack.
DocTaotsu
I'm prone to remind people that an unarmed combat roll isn't a single strike, it's a whole flurry of blows and counters (hence it's opposed nature). Getting your 6S shock glove damage isn't from a single good hit (necessarily, it could be of course) it's the cumilative damage from getting smacked around with the tickly side of a taser.

Honestly I'd explain it the same way I explain the whole "Everyone gets to go once before new IP's are resolved". It'd be lame if it was different. If your players disagree stage a mock combat where everyone rolls around doing all their normal physical damage (and requisite stun) + shock hand damage. Your players will either love that they die/pass out instantly or they'll hate it and beg you to go back to the RAW.
Medicineman
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Oct 22 2008, 10:39 PM) *
You get a (I think +2) DP bonus for trying to get a "touch attack" rather than an actual strike. That's my, perhaps shaky, explanation of why you choose one or the other.

You can't do both Damages,it's a Balancing Issue !
and for The Touch attack , you only need 0 Net Hits ! Its called "Streifschuss" in German (Glancing Hit ?)I've read it just recently in the BBB .Well those were the Rules for Firing at somebody I Assume you use the same Rules for Melee

with a glancing Dance
Medicineman
dirkformica
For all those in the "no they don't combine" group, why does the BBB specifically state that Shock Hand cyberware can be put into the knuckles? Is it because the Obama bump was foretold as a way to sneakily taze someone? You don't think that the designers may have envisioned shocking someone with a punch?

Also, it's cybernetically a part of your body. I'm not talking about shock gloves here, but specifically Shock Hand. You have paid essence for the ability to taze people with your hands. They specifically mention these pads being in your knuckles. Am I noogying them to death? If you think those pads will be damaged if I combine them, does that mean I can never go into Unarmed Combat for fear of damaging them? Is my Unarmed Combat now Hassaan Chop and clumsy kicks for fear of damaging my cyberware?

Honestly I can buy the cop out of "it's for balancing purposes." It really does seem too much to be able to have some high strength melee dude smacking people for high physical and then to add insult shocking them for some stun too. I just wondered if there as anything official or if others have run games with this combo and seen what happens.
Fortune
Fine! Make me actually look it up then.

From the Official SR4 FAQ ...

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
If you punch someone with shock gloves, do you inflict standard punching damage (STR/2) in addition to the glove's 6S DV? If you have gloves on both hands, can you attack with both and do 12S DV?

No, it's one or the other. You can choose to punch/kick/whatever and do regular unarmed damage, or you can choose to touch/punch and zap with the shock gloves, doing *only* the shock glove damage (not the unarmed damage too). Even with two gloves, the damage is still just 6S DV.
hobgoblin
i would say the simplest thing (outside of the faq answer) would be to look at the stun baton.

if it had stats for both hitting someone with the physical object, and the stun effect of the electric shock, then there would be a precedent for stacking both with stun gloves. as it do not, it should not with the gloves either.
Karaden
QUOTE (dirkformica @ Oct 23 2008, 07:03 AM) *
For all those in the "no they don't combine" group, why does the BBB specifically state that Shock Hand cyberware can be put into the knuckles? Is it because the Obama bump was foretold as a way to sneakily taze someone? You don't think that the designers may have envisioned shocking someone with a punch?

Also, it's cybernetically a part of your body. I'm not talking about shock gloves here, but specifically Shock Hand. You have paid essence for the ability to taze people with your hands. They specifically mention these pads being in your knuckles. Am I noogying them to death? If you think those pads will be damaged if I combine them, does that mean I can never go into Unarmed Combat for fear of damaging them? Is my Unarmed Combat now Hassaan Chop and clumsy kicks for fear of damaging my cyberware?

Honestly I can buy the cop out of "it's for balancing purposes." It really does seem too much to be able to have some high strength melee dude smacking people for high physical and then to add insult shocking them for some stun too. I just wondered if there as anything official or if others have run games with this combo and seen what happens.


Ah, I was thinking about the shock gloves, not the cyberware.

Still my argument from before about having apply the taser for a decent length of time to have proper effect still stands. Even if unarmed combat is considered multiple smaller punches (Which seems unlikely as it would mean you'd never make it through decent armor) it still stands that each individual punch only makes contact for a brief instant, which isn't enough to cause real damage with a taser.

I don't advise this, but if you really want, grab a taser and a really good friend. Prod them with it for as short a time as you can manage. You can do this dozens of times without knocking out your friend. If however you hold the taser to them for a second or two, you'll find them on the ground rather quickly.

So yeah, the electrodes are on the knuckles because that is very natural to someone skilled in fighting to punch someone. Only difference is that they need to hold the punch to the person for a moment instead of actually hitting them hard. Maybe if your friend is still conscious you can try this out. Try punching them and keeping your knuckles in constant contact with them after the punch. You'll find you have to chose between making the punch good, and making the knuckles stay connected.

Similar things happen with a stun baton. If you hit them hard enough to make the baton itself hurt, they don't touch the baton long enough for the electricity to do its work. If they hold the baton to the person, they aren't hitting them hard enough to make the baton itself hurt. Maybe a baseball bat and your friend could demonstrate this.

P.S. If you plan on doing all this to your friend, plan on getting a new friend.
hobgoblin
heh, now im tempted to ask if people would allow someone to apply stun damage from gloves while being on full defense.

why? because if its touch thats needed, just wait for someone to try hitting or kicking, grab said limb and *zap*...
Tarantula
I'd say that being on "full defense" precludes you from grabbing them, as you're focusing on defense, as the name implies.
hobgoblin
heh, grabbing may be the wrong word. but putting the palm or some other contact surface against the oncoming limb may still happen, i would guess.
Tarantula
Could, but then you're not getting that whole extended contact thing thats needed. And, if you are blocking, its typically done with forearms/shins, not palms of your hands.
hobgoblin
heh, it was just a thought. it would just be to darn funny watching a old master with a shock glove or two drop a whole gang without going offensive wink.gif
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