So I know many of you Yanks actually have military experience and I don't necessarily trust Wikipedia as a definitive source.

But.

I thought it might be interesting to investigate the lineage of the Ingram SmartgunX and so found myself reading about the MAC11 and MAC10 and then about Suppressors. Then I came across some counter-intuitive facts.

Apparently (a bad sign), the trapping of expanding Muzzle gasses in the baffles or wipes of a suppressor actually reduces the felt recoil of the weapon, possibly by more than 60% in some cases.

If this were true then the improved rules in Arsenal dealing with this subject are BS. A suppressor can easily be modified to include 'Gas Vent' and this mod should actually be cheaper then the naked Gas Vent due to a suppressor naturally tending to have this effect.

[ducks]

iirc, gas vent not the same as suppressor.

the suppressor captures gas to reduce the muzzle sound of the gun, while the gas vent angles the gas in different directions to make the barrel not move much from its current position.

when someone talk about felt recoil im guessing its about the "kick" the gun delivers to shoulder or similar. this should decrease when less gas is allowed to act as a jet. the off-target part of the recoil can have a number of reasons. from the way the gun is designed (making it rotate in the hand, i think the M-14 had/have a issue like that) to moving parts inside the gun (slide and similar) moving the weight of the gun around (more of a issue with handguns iirc).

but this is just me doing physics guesswork

Just for clarification.

so it reduces the "mule kick". something that will make anyone but a seasoned shooter flinch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y7KjanpWOk

how much of that is the person not expecting the level of kick and basically having the mind go into fight or flight mode?

ROFLMAO!!!

Nice.

I also managed to find the following here.

Found another interesting article here.

so slap a -1 on the recoil effects for attacks and be happy

The above are all reasons why I use suppressors for almost all of my mil-spec and tactical team NPC firearms. The benefits are just too damn good to ignore for the measly 200 per weapon.

but then i guess you do not play by standard combat rules...

I use the RAW dice engine. The rest? Well...depends on who's doing what.

I noticed that almost every single shooter in the video is leaning back while holding the rifle. This is normally indicative of the shooter not having much experience with firearms. Almost every new shooter I have been to the range with takes a similar stance. I find myself having to push them forward, and sometimes hold them there, until they become more comfortable with shooting. Women with handguns always seem to be the worst offenders, actually arching their backs while leaning backwards, presumably to help counterbalance the weight of the firearm. This is a bad habit to develop.

My experience has taught me that most recoil can be overcome by simply taking a more aggressive posture, and leaning into the firearm more. This works with both rifles and pistols. I have found that by leaning forward slightly, almost as if you're crouched and ready to pounce, the recoil seems much less severe. For handguns, I tend to prefer the "Modified Weaver" stance, and I use a similar stance for rifles. This is just what works for me, your mileage may vary...

As for suppressors and gas vent, I've always been confused by that rule myself. Suppressors DO reduce felt recoil, presumably due to the gases pushing forward on the baffle plates. In my games, in order to adhere to RAW, I have created a house rule that is a bit of a compromise. I allow both gas vent and suppressors to be used on the same weapon, but only one at a time. Most suppressor manufacturers are now offering some sort of quick-detach mechanism, which basically allows the suppressor to be installed OVER the flash hider. My rule is essentially the same.

You can have gas vent mounted on a weapon, and receive the benefits thereof. You can also mount a suppressor OVER your gas vent, but in doing so, you receive only the suppressor bonuses, and not those of the gas vent. Even though this goes against real life experience, it does keep the Rules Lawyer in me happy by adhering to the RAW as closely as possible, without sacrificing my sanity. Considering that silence is golden, sacrificing your gas vent is a small price to pay...

That ain't a house-rule that is the RAW as of Arsenal. It's in the section on modifying weapons.

Perhaps I mispoke myself in the title. What I mean is that Suppressors have exactly the same recoil damping effect as a Gas-vent and whilst you can't use a conventional muzzle-brake and a suppressor at the same time the suppressor should be rated for it's recoil compensating effect up to at least rating 3.

Having watched a huge amount of video on Youtube yesterday they should probably have different ratings for suppression also but I suppose the current system ought to suffice.

What would, of course, be easiest is to just allow both to be fitted to any weapon with the 'Gas-Vent' component simply representing the additional cost of designing the suppressor to maximize it's recoil compensating effect.

From what I have read, real life silencer/suppressors can reduce recoil, and improve accuracy.

In Shadowrun terms the recoil reduction is not because a silencer/suppressor acts as a gas vent, rather it acts as a Heavy Barrel modification.^(p.152) The improved accuracy results from the silencer/suppressor also acting as a Barrel Extension modification.^(p.150)

For modifications, I would allow Heavy Barrel and Silencer/Sound Suppressor to be combined, using the same 3 Slots, for 200% of the original weapon cost.

From the existing costs of a silencer/suppressor, it appears that modifications generally cost twice what an equivalent accessory costs, so the following Accessories should fit in the game just fine:

• Heavy Silencer: The heavy silencer is a barrel-mounted accessory that reduces the sound and flash of a weapon’s discharge and improves its accuracy. A heavy silencer can only be used with single-shot or semi-automatic weapons (and not with revolvers). It applies a –4 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the weapon’s firer, provides 1 point of recoil compensation when firing full bursts, increases each of the weapon’s range categories by 10%, and adds +1 to Concealability. Attaching or removing a heavy silencer takes a Complex Action. This accessory costs the same amount as the weapon it is designed for.
• Heavy Sound Suppressor: The heavy sound suppressor is a barrel mounted accessory similar to the heavy silencer but specifically designed for burst-fire and full-auto weapons. It applies a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to notice the weapon’s use or locate the weapon’s firer, provides 1 point of recoil compensation when firing full bursts, increases each of the weapon’s range categories by 10%, and adds +1 to Concealability. Attaching or removing it takes a Complex Action. It must be replaced after every 300 rounds of burst or autofire. This accessory costs the same amount as the weapon it is designed for.

Not to shabby except that a suppressor and a silencer are the same thing with different names. Also, modern cans are easily good for 10,000+ rounds, even when used exclusively for full-auto fire from things like machineguns.

My apologies, then... In my defense, I am one of those stubborn fools who refuse to accept the abomination that is SR4, and instead choose to stick with the infinitely variable target numbers of SR3...

Does this make me an angry old curmudgeon? Perhaps, but I'm okay with that...

Personally, I would allow gas vents and suppressors to be used at the same time, because I don't think it's particularly game-breaking, and if the players really want it, why the hell not. Also, in any of the groups I played with, we never counted rounds fired to find the lifespan of the suppressor. That was just a little too much bookkeeping, and not enough of a balance issue for anyone to worry about it either.