So,
I have just finished my 4th Shadowrun game last night. My playerbase has grown considerably, i now have 7 active players in my game which is fine. I am having a hard time trying to intermix matrix stuff with my gun fights, does anyone have any suggestions on how they do this. More doors to unlock with hacking and stuff like that? I have a Technomancer whos primary function is doing Matrix stuff and wants to stay out of combat but so far I've been having a hard time with that.
Also does anyone use any good house rules to streamline combat a bit and make it flow alittle better. Im thinking of getting rid of initiative passes all together and just saying anything that would add an initiative pass instead adds a simple action or something like that.
Finally a question: In the rules on page 144 it says that a full auto burst is a -9 recoil penalty but it also says treat two targets of a full burst as a long and short burst and three targets as three short bursts...how is the recoil modifier factored into the situation?
Thanks,
-Josh
Full Version: Need some Help
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I would advise not messing with the Initiative Pass system - there are multiple alterations on these boards, & while it does have some flaws, I do not believe any of the changes really improve it, & many just screw it up.
Recoil would be the same. Recoil is calculated as a cumulative -1 for every bullet fired beyond the first in an Initiative Pass. It does not matter if you are attacking a single target, multiple targets, or splitting a Full Burst between targets. Note: Dice Pool Modifiers (such as Recoil) are applied after splitting your dice pool for multiple attacks. I do not remember if dividing a Full Burst requires a split pool, but I suspect it does.
Recoil would be the same. Recoil is calculated as a cumulative -1 for every bullet fired beyond the first in an Initiative Pass. It does not matter if you are attacking a single target, multiple targets, or splitting a Full Burst between targets. Note: Dice Pool Modifiers (such as Recoil) are applied after splitting your dice pool for multiple attacks. I do not remember if dividing a Full Burst requires a split pool, but I suspect it does.
Your first mistake was to let a TM into a group of new players. Easy error to make, the book doesn't warn you about it at all.
But new players+Technomancers=pain
They suck up extra time on the table doing all their threading and stuff before the hack, have many many more ways to mess up the rules and more rules need to be known, there will be arguments over some sprite abilities once the TM reads the rules carefully and tries to get a bunch of extra dice shooting their smartlinked gun, and finally generally they aren't good outside of the matrix. Meaning if they aren't hacking they might be bored.
Ugh.
Anyway some ways t oahve more hacking
Using electronic warefare to triangulate stuff, hacking drones (which you should probably use more of), spying (hack the secretaries comlink and watch they day through her eyes etc, and messing and eavesdropping on communications. Reinforcements are a big part of SR combat, messing with them can be critical.
But new players+Technomancers=pain
They suck up extra time on the table doing all their threading and stuff before the hack, have many many more ways to mess up the rules and more rules need to be known, there will be arguments over some sprite abilities once the TM reads the rules carefully and tries to get a bunch of extra dice shooting their smartlinked gun, and finally generally they aren't good outside of the matrix. Meaning if they aren't hacking they might be bored.
Ugh.
Anyway some ways t oahve more hacking
Using electronic warefare to triangulate stuff, hacking drones (which you should probably use more of), spying (hack the secretaries comlink and watch they day through her eyes etc, and messing and eavesdropping on communications. Reinforcements are a big part of SR combat, messing with them can be critical.
To streamline combat:
1)Players (and GM) need to know what their PC (& NPC) skills are and how much damage they do, their dodge/reaction, armor and body. They and you need a cheat sheet. Don't let anyone waste everyone else's time because they have no idea what their character (NPC) is going to do or how many dice they can roll to do it.
2) Don't roll initiative, hits are bought: Reac + Intu + 1/4.
3) Players sit in their combat initiative order at the table.
4) Describe the scene in reasonable detail. If there is something that they should all get a chance to see have them all roll perception at the top of the turn or as they move to see it. Remember how short IPs are and how loud and disorientating close range combat is.
5) Players get asked, in initiative order, what their character is doing. They have 5 seconds to say what their character is doing for the IP. If they don't come up with something they delay until the next IP. (They pause where they are in confusion) If the player isn't there when the time comes for them to act their character also delays. If they delay on the last player IP they don't get to act first next turn as they are confused, not plotting.
6) If the player wants to know something obvious that you didn't cover you should answer the question and then ask them for what they want to do. However if the player wants to know something that isn't obvious ask: do you want to observe in detail this IP? If yes, they get to roll perception for subtle things but that's their IP. Otherwise they don't get this info.
7) I'd suggest that everyone says what they are planning on doing BEFORE anyone acts for that IP. It's a 3 second turn! Nobody gets to object and make someone change their declaration if it's something that will kill half the group. (nerf bats are allowed to keep them from actually doing this when the moment comes...) Then each player acts in order of initiative for the IP. If a player can't/won't do what they declared (as when the sammie runs into the room before the guy with the GL fires) the player can't change their action, they can just delay (or blow the sammie up....) Being shot or attacked in HtH allows the player to change their unused action to go to cover or fight in melee. IF a player can't remember what they announced their character delays.
8) Players roll to hit dice at the same time the GM rolls both defense and DR dice. Use dice that can be clearly told apart. Any wacky defense maneuvers need to be announced by the GM (like full defense) right after the PC announces the attack. If the player can't come up with their state + skill + positive modifiers and damage within 5 seconds after announcing the attack it misses.
9) players roll defense and DR dice at the same time as the GM attacks them. Player also needs to announce (for melee) what they are defending with, otherwise assume they use whatever gives them the most dice other then full defense. If the GM has to get shuffling through his notes to find skills he misses also. If the player needs to spend more than 5 seconds to look up the character reaction he doesn't dodge, if he needs to look up the armor he doesn't get to roll it, etc.
10) Don't worry about detailed damage for most bad guys. If they have been lightly damaged pull a couple of dice, if they are lightly it a few time they should probably boogie, if they take major damage they go down.
11) Don't worry about getting the skills and modifiers of the bad guys exactly right, quick and a little wrong is often better then slow and correct.
12) have a cheat sheet with the PCs combat skills, weapon damage, armor, int, reaction handy so you can tell them what to roll and check that they roll the right number of dice.
13) There needs to be enough dice of the right colors on hand so that there is never need to roll, count, roll some more, etc for a single attack. Insist this is a player issue. If someone had 25 armor and 15 body they need to bring 40 dice to the game, or have a buddy they can leach off of. Otherwise, if the players have only 12 red dice and 12 green dice they get to roll for some reaction and 12 body and get reminded to bring more dice next time.
Edit: Body and armor dice are really the same.
Insist players use dice that are large enough to be clearly visible and have clearly visible markings.
1)Players (and GM) need to know what their PC (& NPC) skills are and how much damage they do, their dodge/reaction, armor and body. They and you need a cheat sheet. Don't let anyone waste everyone else's time because they have no idea what their character (NPC) is going to do or how many dice they can roll to do it.
2) Don't roll initiative, hits are bought: Reac + Intu + 1/4.
3) Players sit in their combat initiative order at the table.
4) Describe the scene in reasonable detail. If there is something that they should all get a chance to see have them all roll perception at the top of the turn or as they move to see it. Remember how short IPs are and how loud and disorientating close range combat is.
5) Players get asked, in initiative order, what their character is doing. They have 5 seconds to say what their character is doing for the IP. If they don't come up with something they delay until the next IP. (They pause where they are in confusion) If the player isn't there when the time comes for them to act their character also delays. If they delay on the last player IP they don't get to act first next turn as they are confused, not plotting.
6) If the player wants to know something obvious that you didn't cover you should answer the question and then ask them for what they want to do. However if the player wants to know something that isn't obvious ask: do you want to observe in detail this IP? If yes, they get to roll perception for subtle things but that's their IP. Otherwise they don't get this info.
7) I'd suggest that everyone says what they are planning on doing BEFORE anyone acts for that IP. It's a 3 second turn! Nobody gets to object and make someone change their declaration if it's something that will kill half the group. (nerf bats are allowed to keep them from actually doing this when the moment comes...) Then each player acts in order of initiative for the IP. If a player can't/won't do what they declared (as when the sammie runs into the room before the guy with the GL fires) the player can't change their action, they can just delay (or blow the sammie up....) Being shot or attacked in HtH allows the player to change their unused action to go to cover or fight in melee. IF a player can't remember what they announced their character delays.
8) Players roll to hit dice at the same time the GM rolls both defense and DR dice. Use dice that can be clearly told apart. Any wacky defense maneuvers need to be announced by the GM (like full defense) right after the PC announces the attack. If the player can't come up with their state + skill + positive modifiers and damage within 5 seconds after announcing the attack it misses.
9) players roll defense and DR dice at the same time as the GM attacks them. Player also needs to announce (for melee) what they are defending with, otherwise assume they use whatever gives them the most dice other then full defense. If the GM has to get shuffling through his notes to find skills he misses also. If the player needs to spend more than 5 seconds to look up the character reaction he doesn't dodge, if he needs to look up the armor he doesn't get to roll it, etc.
10) Don't worry about detailed damage for most bad guys. If they have been lightly damaged pull a couple of dice, if they are lightly it a few time they should probably boogie, if they take major damage they go down.
11) Don't worry about getting the skills and modifiers of the bad guys exactly right, quick and a little wrong is often better then slow and correct.
12) have a cheat sheet with the PCs combat skills, weapon damage, armor, int, reaction handy so you can tell them what to roll and check that they roll the right number of dice.
13) There needs to be enough dice of the right colors on hand so that there is never need to roll, count, roll some more, etc for a single attack. Insist this is a player issue. If someone had 25 armor and 15 body they need to bring 40 dice to the game, or have a buddy they can leach off of. Otherwise, if the players have only 12 red dice and 12 green dice they get to roll for some reaction and 12 body and get reminded to bring more dice next time.
Edit: Body and armor dice are really the same.
Insist players use dice that are large enough to be clearly visible and have clearly visible markings.
Thanks for all the suggestions guys, ill let you know how the next session goes!
-Josh
-Josh
I would advise against at least half of kzt's suggestions, most notably the time limits. Your players should know their stats, & be quick, but putting such restrictions on them without necessity is absurd.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 17 2008, 08:11 AM) 
I would advise not messing with the Initiative Pass system - there are multiple alterations on these boards, & while it does have some flaws, I do not believe any of the changes really improve it, & many just screw it up.
Recoil would be the same. Recoil is calculated as a cumulative -1 for every bullet fired beyond the first in an Initiative Pass. It does not matter if you are attacking a single target, multiple targets, or splitting a Full Burst between targets. Note: Dice Pool Modifiers (such as Recoil) are applied after splitting your dice pool for multiple attacks. I do not remember if dividing a Full Burst requires a split pool, but I suspect it does.
Recoil would be the same. Recoil is calculated as a cumulative -1 for every bullet fired beyond the first in an Initiative Pass. It does not matter if you are attacking a single target, multiple targets, or splitting a Full Burst between targets. Note: Dice Pool Modifiers (such as Recoil) are applied after splitting your dice pool for multiple attacks. I do not remember if dividing a Full Burst requires a split pool, but I suspect it does.
Can i get a clarification on whether you have to split your dice pool against multiple targets or not, i know when you are dual wielding you do, the book doesn't specify or at least i havent found where it would say that. Thanks.
-Josh
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 17 2008, 03:14 PM)
I would advise against at least half of kzt's suggestions.
I'd advise against most if not all... Nazi GM generally results in fewer players quickly as they go find something more fun to do than to have you point at them with your swizzle stick and tell them you have 5 seconds... TOO LATE!
Thanks.
I figured out my question about multiple targets, you get a -2 beyond the first in a single action. Easy enough, you split you pool only if you are dual weilding.
-Josh
I figured out my question about multiple targets, you get a -2 beyond the first in a single action. Easy enough, you split you pool only if you are dual weilding.
-Josh
If you want to simplify the TM role in combat, what you can do is consider his hacking attempts as basic combat actions : logic+hacking opposed with system+firewall (with modifiers according to the security level he needs). If the TM/hacker wins, he can act on the device just for this action.
It's not RAW, but it helps.
Another way is to have a player with a good grasp on the rules, tell him the stats of the node he's targeting and let him tell you when he finally gets an account.
It's not RAW, but it helps.
Another way is to have a player with a good grasp on the rules, tell him the stats of the node he's targeting and let him tell you when he finally gets an account.
The easiest way to integrate decking and real-world things is to put the paydata in offline storage. This way, the techie-types have to go along with the party.
When you have 7 players who get two passes per turn and take 5 minutes per pass you have 70 minutes per 3 seconds. I've seen people take a lot longer than 5 minutes to decide what to do, ask questions, ask the GM about a rule, question the GM's ruling, look up the rule (in 4 seperate books), look up their skills, look up how their gear works, ask the GM how their gear work, whine about the GMs decision, read the book about how their gear works, roll their 4 dice 6 times to resolve the attack, have the GM point out that they only get 21 dice, reroll all their dice, etc....
If everyone is happy about your typical 6 second fight taking 2 plus hours then everything is great. If they are not then you need to do something, probably something drastic.
If everyone is happy about your typical 6 second fight taking 2 plus hours then everything is great. If they are not then you need to do something, probably something drastic.
He clearly stated that 7 players was not a problem. It was not what he was asking about.
Even if it was, what you listed is extreme circumstances, & the best option is to kick such people out of the group instead of imposing ridiculous & retarded time limits. In my experience, it usually takes less than 30 seconds per person to resolve 1 IP, & rarely up to a minute or two when obscure &/or complex rules are being used. If it takes more than about 20 seconds for someone to look something up before deciding what they want to do, then they hold until they do decide. At no point do the players actually loose their action unless they state they are doing nothing, & at no point do they not receive a resistance test, as both of those ruin the game.
Even if it was, what you listed is extreme circumstances, & the best option is to kick such people out of the group instead of imposing ridiculous & retarded time limits. In my experience, it usually takes less than 30 seconds per person to resolve 1 IP, & rarely up to a minute or two when obscure &/or complex rules are being used. If it takes more than about 20 seconds for someone to look something up before deciding what they want to do, then they hold until they do decide. At no point do the players actually loose their action unless they state they are doing nothing, & at no point do they not receive a resistance test, as both of those ruin the game.
I've never seen a full combat take longer than 30 minutes real time with 7 players... ever.
But if somebody needs to do something odd... taking the time to refresh the rules should be expected and accepted.
But if somebody needs to do something odd... taking the time to refresh the rules should be expected and accepted.
Wow, Blade. That's a very interesting suggestion .........
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Nov 17 2008, 02:25 PM)
I've never seen a full combat take longer than 30 minutes real time with 7 players... ever.
But if somebody needs to do something odd... taking the time to refresh the rules should be expected and accepted.
But if somebody needs to do something odd... taking the time to refresh the rules should be expected and accepted.
I've never seen a SR4 combat take *less* than 30 minutes, regardless of the number of players. But to be fair, that's about typical for most game systems on the market.
kzt has some interesting ideas. I wouldn't personally go as far as he does with the forfeits, I've been using the "5 seconds to declare your action" rule for a while now. It doesn't just speed up play, it also makes combat more realistic, because the player has to think almost as fast as the character does. It means that your players stop planning out elaborate manuevers between each other, and start panicking and diving for cover more. It also means that as a group of characters work together, their tactics evolve as they learn what the other characters are likely to do in a given situation.
Aside from that, I think the number one rule of running combat quickly, in any system, is to make sure the players know what they're doing. Time and time again I find myself sitting around a table with players who consistently forget the most basic rules, or have to be prompted to make a defence roll when they are attacked. I understand that not everyone is as system savvy, but I also feel that the biggest favour you can do a GM is to learn the system, at least to the point where you can carry out any basic action without needing to ask what the rules are. If you have to make yourself some notes and cheats then do it. Or use some google-fu and find the ones that other people have made. Being familiar with the rules makes the game more fun for everyone, and not even learning the basics is just laziness. The GM put a lot of work into developing this adventure for you, and has brought reams of notes with him, as well as having to read up on and memorise or summarise many more rules and sets of stats than you did. It's just a basic courtesy to do a little preparation yourself before the session.
Aside from that, I think the number one rule of running combat quickly, in any system, is to make sure the players know what they're doing. Time and time again I find myself sitting around a table with players who consistently forget the most basic rules, or have to be prompted to make a defence roll when they are attacked. I understand that not everyone is as system savvy, but I also feel that the biggest favour you can do a GM is to learn the system, at least to the point where you can carry out any basic action without needing to ask what the rules are. If you have to make yourself some notes and cheats then do it. Or use some google-fu and find the ones that other people have made. Being familiar with the rules makes the game more fun for everyone, and not even learning the basics is just laziness. The GM put a lot of work into developing this adventure for you, and has brought reams of notes with him, as well as having to read up on and memorise or summarise many more rules and sets of stats than you did. It's just a basic courtesy to do a little preparation yourself before the session.
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 17 2008, 11:33 PM)
I've never seen a SR4 combat take *less* than 30 minutes, regardless of the number of players. But to be fair, that's about typical for most game systems on the market.
i have, but i threw out grenades as if they were scalding hot on my character . . nothing much stood after that, much less from my own group, but it WAS over pretty fast . .
same with mages and Stunball or other such things . .
Aaron's Cheat Sheets to each player and have them use them during combats.
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