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krayola red
Okay, so I'm running a forum game right now and one of the players is sneaking into a ganger base with about 20 mofos hanging around inside. I looked up the SR4 stealth rules and they seem to be extremely, extremely vague. If you play it exactly by the book and do an opposed roll for every single person the player encounters, not only is it cumbersome, but it makes it ridiculously easy to sneak around, even in a crowded area. Even for closely matched characters, the guy trying to hide tends to have the advantage since Agility can usually be pumped to high ratings, whereas Intuition can't, and it's much easier to get bonus dice for Infiltration than for Perception. When you're dealing with gangers, who are usually a lot weaker than PCs, then it becomes a joke. By the raw, a PC can probably sneak past a room full of ten gangers in broad daylight without a problem.

So how do you guys handle Infiltration? Do you play it by the book? Do you use GM fiat, which I don't really like to do because I think players should have a sporting chance at anything? Do you use some kind of home brewed system to handle dice rolls? I'm running with the last one right now and it seems to be working out pretty well.
Kurious
Per the perception rules; use the highest perceivers rating (with mod's applied) and add +1 per extra person who might notice said PC (to a max +5).
Zaranthan
Also, keep in mind that infiltration is like russian roulette: you only get to lose once. Given the fact that if you could shoot your way in, you wouldn't be sneaking, I find the seemingly slim margins of success for the guards to be quite fair.
masterofm
A few things to keep in mind Shadowrunners are not gangers, Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons, and Shadowrun is all about not being seen.

Infiltration is good, but hell it only gets you so far before you die a terrible terrible death, and generally it is ten times better then kicking down someones door and trying to kill them all.

Shadowrun is generally more Metal Gear Solid then it is about Rambo. It can be both, but Snake generally does better then Rambo (considering that Rambo would die quite quickly in SR rules.)
TheOOB
QUOTE (masterofm @ Nov 25 2008, 11:10 PM) *
A few things to keep in mind Shadowrunners are not gangers, Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons, and Shadowrun is all about not being seen.

Infiltration is good, but hell it only gets you so far before you die a terrible terrible death, and generally it is ten times better then kicking down someones door and trying to kill them all.

Shadowrun is generally more Metal Gear Solid then it is about Rambo. It can be both, but Snake generally does better then Rambo (considering that Rambo would die quite quickly in SR rules.)


I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but it should be noted that while solid snake can't afford to be spotted by everyone, in his games(as opposed to many other stealth games) there is always a time when direct combat is unavoidable, and sometimes the best way to get past the enemy is to come out shooting, so long as you get the drop on your opponents. This actually represents the reality of shadowrun, sometimes trying to sneak around your opponents it too difficult and leaves the chance that you will get caught at the wrong moment, in which case it's better to start the combat now when you are sure you'll get the first strike.
Metapunk
I think I would have the char make a single infiltration check. since it is the same sneak he is doing. then let the part of the group with a chance of spotting him roll. if he then gets to a secure place he can choose to roll another roll or go with his current roll.

dunno if this is understandable:/
Spoonfunk
I would have the person who is most likely to see him make a roll and add in his friends by giving the guy a +1 up to +5 depending on who could potentially see him.

The rules are vague in order to leave room for Gm interpretation something the SR4 has alot of.
Thadeus Bearpaw
QUOTE (Metapunk @ Nov 26 2008, 06:18 AM) *
I think I would have the char make a single infiltration check. since it is the same sneak he is doing. then let the part of the group with a chance of spotting him roll. if he then gets to a secure place he can choose to roll another roll or go with his current roll.

dunno if this is understandable:/


I tend to run it with multiple checks as dictated by changes in the scenario. I use the perception rule mentioned above as well. usually dice rolls are required as per new groups or threats arise or with the drama I want to create. Everytime a roll is thrown its a new potential for failure, and usually that failure if the person has infiltrated deep enough can be a terrible thing.
Dashifen
I do something similar to Metapunk above. I have the sneaky types roll and keep the lowest number of hits. That, then, creates the threshold for the people trying to spot the sneaky types. That way, I can either (a) pre-roll the spot checks for the guards or (b) roll more than one and quickly compare against the threshold set by the sneaky PCs rather than having players rolling opposed tests all the time.

Alternatively, I've done it the other way and simply set a threshold to sneak past a guard without being seen. Base threshold of 2, if he's alert +1, tired -1, he's got friends +1, etc. And if the sneaky types get the threshold, they win. Either way works, it just usually depends on whether or not the players request a stealth roll or if I tell them they have to roll. The former I usually run as the first paragraph, the latter I usually have a pretty good idea of what they're up against and run as the latter.
Ryu
QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 26 2008, 03:07 PM) *
I tend to run it with multiple checks as dictated by changes in the scenario. I use the perception rule mentioned above as well. usually dice rolls are required as per new groups or threats arise or with the drama I want to create. Everytime a roll is thrown its a new potential for failure, and usually that failure if the person has infiltrated deep enough can be a terrible thing.

I do it that way, too. Do not underestimate the probability effects of repeated rolls. You are demanding (number of involved characters) rolls each time. Equal odds of evasion and detection would almost gurantee detection in most cases.
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