Hi there, dumpshockers and dumpshockees.
I've been lurking on these boards for quite a while, but only bothered to register now thanks to quite a lot of questions looking forward to my very first actual SR4-campaign (I've been playing SR since 2nd Ed and had a short encounter with the 4ed system shortly after the BBB was published, but have been on hiatus ever since).

My favorite character concept for now is a nosferatu houngan following Baron, using his pale skin and hairlessness as his schtick and fashion statement, basically hiding his real monstrosity of being an infected under the mask of the perceived monstrosity of the dark evil zombie conjuring voodoo priest.

Anyway, on to the first batch of questions.

1) There's no way I'd generate a voodoo priest without ritual spellcasting, although it was almost useless in editions past. That's seems to have swung the other way in 4th though, as reading the rules I found no hint of most of the old restrictions.
Is there really no restriction to the kind of spells you can send via ritual spellcasting? Can you actually ritually powerbolt someone? Or for that matter, as spell range seems to be of no consequence, can you actually ritually death touch someone by touching your little voodoo doll?
Ritual combat magic with a symbolic link seems to be absurdly good at killing basically anyone, as there seems to be almost no way to defend against it.

2) A nosferatu get the compulsion and influence critter powers, but I fail to see a distinct difference between them. From reading the description in the main book, they do basically the same thing, with influence just being strictly better, but if that would be the case, the nosferatu would have no need for compulsion, so whats the difference between their effects?

3) What exactly constitutes "contact" in regard to allergy to sunlight? It's easy to define with actual material stuff, but with the sun? Technically, a long coat or even clouded weather would prevent the nosferatu from being "in contact" with an actual ray of light, but that would make an important difference between them and regular people wierdly weak. On the other hand defining it as "being illuminated by natural light" or somesuch would be quite a death sentence for nosferatu at daytime thanks to their damage causing severe allergy.
Either way, alleviate allergy seems to be a really powerfull spell for a magically active nosferatu.

4) Induced dormancy. Why exactly is this coined as a weakness? A vampire being cut off from air for about 6-10 minutes (thanks to their high essence) falls unconscious but does never die from lack of air. Last time I checked, most regular humans (and infected without this "weakness") would be unconsious after at best half that time and will die. So, how is having this weakness a disadvantage?


Seems like I'll never learn to pose short and concise questions. Apologies for the wall of text.

I just happen to have my book turned to that page....

Compulsion, according to the BBB, can usually only compel *one* type of action, depending on the critter. So, you get to pick one action, which he gets to resist with Will + Charisma. You have to sustain the power while he's completing the action. Compulsion also cannot compel a being's future actions, it only works while you sustain it.

Influence, on the other hand, doesn't need to be sustained. It implants a suggestion, which can be delayed; and it is resisted by Willpower alone. Best of all, it's not a spell, so counterspelling dice don't apply. Sounds like it's got it all over Compulsion, right?

Well, here's the thing. If confronted by the "wrongness" of the suggestion, or asked to do anything suicidal, they get a second chance to break the effect. If confronted multiple times, they get multiple chances, each one eroding the net successes you got in your initial roll. Eventually, they will break free. Compulsion isn't bound by that-- if your compulsion is inherently dangerous, they can't do a thing about it. If you beat them, they have to obey the compulsion as long as you maintain it.

So, as you can see, both have their uses. The differences may be a little subtle, but they've got strong effects. Talk to your GM about what your Compulsion will be, and then use both.

Ritual magic requires a spotter, either a mage (who must watch how long he can remain astral) or a bound spirit (which costs money for the binding materials). The spotter has to deal with wards and any other astral defenses, and must be able to assense the target. The target also has a chance to notice the energy building up. The spotter is the substitute for line of sight, so I personally would not allow touch spells to be used in ritual spellcasting. That would be a house rule, though - by RAW, there is nothing prohibiting it.


It would take more than a long coat - the nosferatu would have to cover his face, wear shades, etc. or suffer from the affects of the allergy, and walking around looking like Michael Jackson is not exactly inconspicuous. Alleviate allergy is a great spell for nosferatu.


Regular humans don't regenerate most injuries. It is a "weakness" because it is one of the things that a vampire, something notoriously difficult to kill, is vulnerable to.

Cain:
Ah, so that's compulsion's niche. Didn't even think of that, thanks.
So influence is usually better, but if you want one mook to start shooting around randomly while each of his friends screams at him to stop, compulsion is the way to go.

Although I interpreted the "usually" in the description of compulsion, that there are critters which aren't bound to a single compulsion, so each critter which didn't specify a specific use of the power (like nosferatu) get to compulse (is that even the right verb?) whatever they want.



Forgive the vague wording. Generating a houngan, I actually only thought about using a sympathetic or even symbolic link to establish contact, not the regular spotter. Do wards actually hinder the ritual spell? I haven't found anything to that regard, which means a target that doesn't have a mage providing counterspelling dice while he sleeps peacefully most likely wont wake up the next morning. And with symbolic link metamagic you don't even need to know your target personally.
A force 8 powerbolt, while requiring quite an extensive ritual lodge to cast, will most likely kill any unprotected target even figuring in the puny -6 dice for using an old soyburger wrap or a symbolic link forged in less than a week.


Wait, so that means an infected with regeneration, but without the induced dormancy weakness can't ever choke, as he gets to actually regenerate the "Help I can't breathe!" stun damage?
That would make it a weakness, alright.
And makes nosferatu even cooler...


Edited to prevent double posting

That's up to your GM to decide, but if you can create a compulsion for anything, that makes it extremely powerful. I'd just pick one thing that's very powerful, like "Kill yourself with your own weapon." Unlike Influence, they can't weasel out of it, or fight the effects off once they fail the initial test. Use Influence for other, non-suicidal commands. Remember, Influence can be worn down or defeated with enough rolls, especially against suicidal orders.

It's rather difficult to finish someone off with a single ritual spell, wards, backround count, all that kind of stuff can work against you, especially if you already are taking a penalty for using a weak link.

There is a hidden danger to killing people with ritual magic...you're spells astral signature is left on the target(for a long time if it's a high force spell), and you are not usually around to do something about it, and trust me, if someone dies suddenly with no apparent cause, lone star will have a mage there to assense the scene very very quick.

Killing someone via ritual magic, especially if you don't know where they are at the time, is very risky, you would be better served by using more subtle spells like influence, mind probe, or confusion, spells that usually won't call for immediate magical investigation because their effects are not immediatly apparent.

Wards are an astral barrier, so I imagine they would hinder any magic attempting to get past it. Background counts would also work against ritual magic (I personally think that background counts should be relatively rare, but other GMs make them more common). Symbolic link metamagic does away with the need for a spotter, but remember that it also imposes a -6 dice pool penalty.

"get past it" being the important part. I think that in editions past, ritual spells actually formed at the targets aura, without having to pass any wards inbetween. I haven't found anything for or against that statement in the fourth edition.


And yes, I do realize that killing someone with a force 8 ritual powerbolt is about as subtle as blowing up his house with a couple of military mortars, I brought it up mainly as a proof of concept in that it's actually easier to accomplish than the mortar one and less defendable to boot.

But subtlety brings me right to the next question:
As powerbolting the NERPS out of far away targets is usually a bad idea and is, more importantly, boring, I'd need some ideas for other spells that are good and fun to use with ritual casting.
The actual mind manipulations seem rather useless, as you spend hours to cast them and the target will shake off their effects in a few combat turns, usually not enough time for the really fun possibilities.
"Dream" comes to mind, obviously, but are there other fun, useful spells for ritual spellcasting?

There is the intoxication spell; any of the direct illusions such as agony, bugs, orgasm, or stink; and more subtle mental manipulations such as alter memory or influence. Even fashion or makeover can do subtle damage - make their fancy label jacket look like a cheap knockoff, or make their understated makeup just a tad bit more garish.

As Glyph pointed out, there's Influence, which if done properly will never face the degradation. I know what I said earlier, but that only applies when you're giving suicidal commands. If you need another fun one, try Mind Probe.

The big advantage of ritual sorcery is the fact that you can accumulate a huge dice pool for the casting. If the leader spends Edge, you can exceed the success cap on spells. That means he can use every success he gets. On top of that, his 6's will explode, meaning he's more likely to get more successes. This is a good time to throw in other bonuses as well, suck as Aid Sorcery. Even assuming modest characters, you can get a lot of dice for the casting.

For example, let's say we have 4 houngans, who are sticking to the basics and are going to manabolt their target. Each of them have Sorcery 4, Magic 5-- a very reasonable pool, not hyper-optimized in the slightest. Three of them contribute dice as per a Teamwork test, meaning that on average, they'll provide 3 dice apiece. The lead spellcaster now has 18 dice for the casting. Let's take it just a bit further: we'll assume he has an Edge of 4, and a bound spirit of force 5. That gives us 27 dice to throw the spell, not including exploding 6's.

So, as their chanting comes to a peak, the lead houngan stabs the needle into the heart of their voodoo doll, topped with the hair of their target. The force of the manabolt doesn't matter too much, but let's say for the sake of argument that it's Force 5. 27 dice = 9 successes, on average, excluding dice explosions. The target has a Willpower of 3, which equals one success-- not enough. He gasps, has a devastating heart attack, and dies instantly.

Even if we assume more protections for the target, he's still likely to die. At 9+ successes, you'll overwhelm all but the toughest ward. Similarly, modest amounts of Counterspelling won't work, either. A combination of the two can do the trick; but when your target is behind that much magical security, ritual sorcery isn't called for-- instead, you should be using a good, old-fashioned shadowrun.

I'm actually playing a Nosferatu mage; he's a Chaos Mage, though not a lot changes when you really look at it.

1) I thought Watcher Spirits could spot for Ritual Spellcasting too.

2) Improved Invisibility at force 1 (with 1 success) ignores the penalty for walking around outside in the daylight. It bends light around you, F1 Sustaining Foci are relatively easy to get (3 BP to get and bind in CharGen), and at Force 1 only lasts for an hour (30 mins with Astral Chameleon) and is easily resisted.

3) Pick up another Moderate + Allergy. And this is why:

A) You cannot regenerate while something you're allergic to is in contact with you.
B) You are not officially dead until you have had a chance to regenerate.

So it goes like this. You take 100P damage right? Before your next initiative pass, one of your teammates sticks a <enter your allergen item here> in your ruined body. You now cannot regenerate, since you are in contact with your allergen.

Post run, your team takes you back to wherever (street doc, ect.), performs First Aid on you, gives you medical care, and magical healing, and slowly gives you back, let's say 85 boxes of HP back. You're still at 15 boxes, but that should be roughly within overflow damage. Now they remove the <allergen item>, and your body finishes the repairs.

4) Another couple spells for use in Ritual Spellcasting: Shapechange (or Bird Form or something), Petrify, Ignite, Alter Memory (a personal favorite of mine), Nourishment or Crank (to get them addicted to magic)...

And don't forget, Teamwork benefits can only reach a maximum of 1/2 your skill: So Spellcasting 6 can only get +3 from any number of sources (unless I read it wrong).

Any spirit can; but do you seriously want a Logic 1 spirit spotting for you? You could easily hit the wrong target!


While this is cheese, this does bring up a good point. Ritual spellcasting doesn't have to be done at a distance, it can be done on something right in front of you. A ritual Heal spell can do amazing things to fix up a teammate on the brink of death.

However, the absolute fastest a Ritual Spell can be cast is one hour, far too long to save someone from the brink (unless he's a toothpicked vampire).

Use First Aid to stabilize him. *shrug* You should always use First Aid before you use magical healing, in any case.

hate to say it, but watchers are basically worthless in SR4...

one is better of summoning a force 2-3 full on spirit then go for a watcher...

I'd say you're better off with the "it's magic, duh" explanation of exactly how invisibility works. As soon as you start taking given explanations like the one above seriously, invisibility makes you blind as well (you can't see without {reflected} light getting in your eyes).


I've read that on this very forum and while I don't believe that rule synergy was actually intended originally, it'll work that exactly that way in our group for sure, as it's just plain to cool not to. And it makes the classical scene of the vampire suddenly becoming alive as soon as the stake in his heart is removed possible, which is a plus.

Does that go for possesion traditions as well? I don't have Street Magic handy, and can't remember whether Posession Tradition watchers changed or not...

Watchers in possession traditions are either corpse cadavres or living dolls.

The allergen thing is a bad idea - it gives the regenerating character another vulnerability, in exchange for assuming that an enemy will simply leave the allergen in, rather than finishing off the vampire with damage that can't be regenerated (regeneration doesn't work for brain/spinal damage or magical damage). That's probably where you could justify the old tales which say that, after staking the vampire, you should cut off its head.

It's an optional rule that posession tradition watchers can use posession.
It certainly makes them more powerful, but still, their crappy mental attributes remain.

The best use for watchers in SR4 is as astral surveilance cameras, communication devices and so on.

Like all spirits, they are mentally linked to their summoner, so you can just put them somewhere and use the mental link to observe, relay messages to the teammates guarding your body while you're projecting and so on.

A team of watchers can still aid in Astral Combat as 'friends in melee'. Some years ago a buddy of mine modified that use to make what he called a "face mob". Watchers can't materialize, but they can manifest (even possession tradition watchers can do that). Four or five ugly, noisy little annoyances dancing inches in front of an opponent's face has to have some effect. And as they travel at astral speed while only manifesting, the opponent can't get away from them.

Peter

Watchers serve plenty of purposes. Bound spirit services are too valuable to waste on trivial things like "deliver this message here" or "wait outside and tell me if anyone comes in", and you can only have one summoned spirit at a time which may very well be doing something else at the moment(*Cough*spirit of man using increased reflexes*Cough*), so watchers can do all those little tasks without using up other spirit resources.

It should also be noted that watchers are the only unbound spirits that can last between last between sunset or sunrise, which can be important say if you need some surveillance on the astral but your run is at dusk when a summoned spirit will only be around a short while, or if your team is taking a short rest and you need someone to watch you in case the sun rises while you are sleeping.

This one is easy as GM. I simply say. "Nope magic doesn't work like that. The sunlight vulnerability still applies." Maybe its more of a meta-physical thing about being out in the daylight then actual UV rays doing damage.


Oh god. This is just another variant of, "Hey, there is no listed penalties for being dead right? So I just get back up and fight!" Re-read the section entitled "The Abstract Nature of the Rules." And duck when the GM throws a book at you for trying to bring this crap up.

I've never let the "No regen checks if in contact with allergens/cannot die until regen check" loophole fly, that makes about as much sense as letting a dog into the NBA because the rules don't specifically disallow it.

Funny thing is, I may in isolated situations allow it(nothing like a vampire you staked to come back to life when the stake is removed), by anyone using it as a cheep way to become immortal will find themselves perishing in quick order.

Ultrasound vision enhancement, Magic Sense, Life Sense, Ultrawideband Radar, Assensing, and that's just off the top of my head.

I think the "induced dormancy" weakness is related to the old myths about vampires being non-buoyant and thus unable/unwilling to cross over bodies of water. With induced dormancy falling into a river = fucked.

If you are going that route, do you also rule that everyone using Improved Invisibility automatically loses access to normal vision?

As cain said you use first aid to stabilize to patient. Remember that once you have hit someone with first aid and Heal, that's all the healing they get. They have to get better the really slow old fashioned way after that. If you think that you could only get a comrade heal 50% with the regular casting of heal, but could get them back to 100% with a 14 hour ritual it might be worth it. Hell a spirit service or two could be cheaper than the hospital bills.

It only creates an actual warping of light around the subject. It does not necessarily mean that light is bent around you.