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Andinel
When you split a dice pool to attack with two weapons or two targets in melee, do you have to split the pool in half? Also, do modifiers such as smartlinks and weapon foci apply before or after the split?
Dakka Dakka
The book does not say if you have to split the pool evenly, but at least dicepool modifiers are applied after the split. Smartlink however does not work for either weapon accoreding to RAW.

For multiple targets in melee it does not say if you split the pool before or after splitting. The Arsenal however states that if you are using two melee weapons against one ore more foes you split the pool before applying modifiers. So i assume it's the same fore multiple targets with one weapon.
Fortune
There is no rule that states you must split the Dice Pool in half. The Dice Pool typically consists of Attribute and Skill. Pretty much everything else is a Modifier, which if applicable are added to the (newly split) Pools afterward.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Andinel @ Dec 3 2008, 04:36 AM) *
When you split a dice pool to attack with two weapons or two targets in melee, do you have to split the pool in half? Also, do modifiers such as smartlinks and weapon foci apply before or after the split?

As mentioned before,no you don't have to split it even
and Modifiers are added(and suptractet) after splitting the Pool.
Smartlinkbonus can not be used in Akimbo fighting (Smartlinkware by itself yes,but not the Bonus, its a balancing Issue)

with ambidextrous Dance
Medicineman
Dumori
Then use the twinks way laser aiming module and tracer rounds on two low recoil mechine pistols and tow cyber gyro mounts. Should with speciliaseation get at least a +4 per gun. Thisonly gets worse it you play a 4 or 6 armed changeling though the splitting and recoil coil make it a useless tactic.

Cain
QUOTE (Dumori @ Dec 3 2008, 04:42 PM) *
Then use the twinks way laser aiming module and tracer rounds on two low recoil mechine pistols and tow cyber gyro mounts. Should with speciliaseation get at least a +4 per gun. Thisonly gets worse it you play a 4 or 6 armed changeling though the splitting and recoil coil make it a useless tactic.

There are ways to make that work. Start by getting yourself a nice SMG dice pool, say around 20 or so.

Split your dice unevenly. Fire the smaller dice pools first, and use wide bursts to increase your chance of hitting. SMG's with 6 points of RC are trivial to obtain.

Once your opponent is out of defense dice, switch to the arms with more dice, and go for narrow bursts. He can't dodge, so you may as well go for increased damage.

Net result? You might tag him with the smaller shots, since he can't dodge them well. You will hit on the tighter groups, since he can't defend anymore. Between the two, you can kill everything but a maxed-out troll tank. And you can hurt even one of those.

Dragnar
I'm still perplexed by the "no smartlinks" rule, as IIRC even "take aim" is still allowed. So you can't align two differently coloured dots projected into your sight on the same target, but you can aim over the crosshairs of two different guns simultaneously? How?

And while we're at it, having thought about a four armed SMG-wielder myself: What other achievable dice pool modifiers are there in fouth to help with hitting? Specialisations (They are noted like dice pool modifiers, do they work that way?), tracer rounds, aiming, what else?
WeaverMount
Item attunement, and likely some mentor spirit. Tac-net, and analyze device if you want cheese. Most modifiers to tests that aren't linked to a stat or skill are negitive
Medicineman
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Dec 4 2008, 02:55 AM) *
I'm still perplexed by the "no smartlinks" rule, as IIRC even "take aim" is still allowed. So you can't align two differently coloured dots projected into your sight on the same target, but you can aim over the crosshairs of two different guns simultaneously? How?

And while we're at it, having thought about a four armed SMG-wielder myself: What other achievable dice pool modifiers are there in fouth to help with hitting? Specialisations (They are noted like dice pool modifiers, do they work that way?), tracer rounds, aiming, what else?

I'm playing a Nartaki-Elf (Via Surge Rules) Ki-Adept Pistolero
I build him with 425 BP and with 670 Karma
he's got a Pool of around 16 (i'm no Hardmaxer,I like to have round and interesting Chars)
with 3 or 4 MPs hes got a split pool of 7/7 up until 4/4/4/4 (Spezialisation Included,but not Tracer rounds)
in a Good weather Fight, I manage to wound (3-6 Boxes each) 6 to 8 Adversaries in one Combat Round (3 IDs)
He's best with 1 beefed-up AK97 and 2 modified Ingram Smart Xs or Colt Cobras (Pool of 8/8/8 IIRC)
thats my Resumee of 3 Sessions
(He's incredibly good in Bluffing or Intimidating Enemies biggrin.gif )

with fourlegged Dance
Medicineman
Fortune
I believe that Take Aim requires a Free Action, so could only potentially be used against one target (with one of the weapons) per pass.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 4 2008, 05:07 AM) *
Once your opponent is out of defense dice, switch to the arms with more dice, and go for narrow bursts. He can't dodge, so you may as well go for increased damage.

The modifiers from wide bursts don't carry over to later attacks, the only modifier that applies is the one for having defended against more than one attack (and can be reduced by the Watchful Guard MAM). So it doesn't really matter how you attack, as long as you make him defend.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 4 2008, 12:54 PM) *
I believe that Take Aim requires a Free Action, so could only potentially be used against one target (with one of the weapons) per pass.

Take Aim is a Simple Action (and can be reduced to a Free Action by the Krav Maga MAA - of couse, you can take addional Free Actions at the cost of a Simple Action each.)
Cain
QUOTE
The modifiers from wide bursts don't carry over to later attacks, the only modifier that applies is the one for having defended against more than one attack (and can be reduced by the Watchful Guard MAM). So it doesn't really matter how you attack, as long as you make him defend.

Query: Does Watchful Guard work against non-melee attacks?

At any event, the Wide Burst benefit doesn't have to apply to later attacks. Like you said, all you need to do is make him defend, which is the point of the first six attacks. The remaining six can be spent on more accurate shots.
Fortune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 4 2008, 11:50 PM) *
Take Aim is a Simple Action (and can be reduced to a Free Action by the Krav Maga MAA - of couse, you can take addional Free Actions at the cost of a Simple Action each.)


Thanks. I didn't have my books, but knew it was an Action of some kind. The point is that does take up an Action. Aim also has the limitation of not allowing other Actions between the onset of the aiming and the attack. An Aiming action with another weapon would be an 'action', and thus nullify the first Aiming attempt.

QUOTE (Cain)
Query: Does Watchful Guard work against non-melee attacks?


As far as I know, yes.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 4 2008, 10:21 PM) *
Thanks. I didn't have my books, but knew it was an Action of some kind. The point is that does take up an Action. Aim also has the limitation of not allowing other Actions between the onset of the aiming and the attack. An Aiming action with another weapon would be an 'action', and thus nullify the first Aiming attempt.

You are allowed to take multiple Take Aim actions, actually, up to half you skill.
Fortune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 5 2008, 12:28 PM) *
You are allowed to take multiple Take Aim actions, actually, up to half you skill.


Yes ... with the same weapon! You can indeed take multiple Take Aim Actions when using the gun in your (for example) right hand. If you then use an Action to Take Aim with the weapon in your left hand, you have taken an Action other than Take Aim for the original weapon, so the first Aiming action would be canceled.
Cain
Actually, I don't see anything indicating that it has to be for the same weapon. Do you have a page reference?
Fortune
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 Core Rulebook pg. 137)
Take Aim
A character may take aim with a ready ranged weapon (firearm, bow, or throwing weapon) as a Simple Action. Take Aim actions are cumulative, but the benefits are lost if the character takes any other kind of action - including a Free Action - at any time.


So, are you saying that taking a Simple Action to Take Aim for a second weapon does not count as another Action? If so, well then I guess that is another thing we don't see eye-to-eye on. In my opinion, cumulative Take Aim actions reflect a deeper concentration on the target,in the weapon's sights. This is something that really cannot be achieved if the character is sighting down multiple barrels.
Cain
QUOTE
So, are you saying that taking a Simple Action to Take Aim for a second weapon does not count as another Action?

No, I'm saying that it's entirely possible to aim two different weapons at the same time.
Fortune
If you say so.
Cabral
I'm sure awakened chameleons are outraged by Fortune's interpretation, but for those of us with stereoscopic perception, it's the only one that makes sense.
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