Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but my searches were unproductive. Feel free to link me to another thread!

I want to design my character to be a serious hacker, and as the book suggests, she should be writing most of her own code. However, the extended test intervals suggested in the core book seem extreme. I assume I can only work on one program at a time, and even using a programming suite, it will take an inordinately long time. Let's go out on a limb and say I can roll 12 dice on a Software test, plus 6 for a really good suite. That's six successes average, so it will take me a year (two intervals) to write a rating-6 autosoft. Using a development environment to cut the time in half will cost 100 nuyen per programming day (is that every day of the 3-month interval?), and even if I shell out the bucks, I will finish up that program six months later and finally move on to the next one.

Given that my GM frequently runs campaigns that last less than a year "in the life," is there any point in trying to be a developer? If I'm missing some fundamental rule here, please be gentle -- I'm a new player.

Jennifer

The fact is, there is no way to code all the programs you need to hack and keep them patched and actually have time to you know hack. By necessity you have to use other peoples code, you can't do it all yourself.

That said, very few hackers would every use a prog without making it their first, going through the code and changing a few things, a)to eliminate any weaknesses and/or back doors the original coder left in, and b)to make the prog cosistant with their persona's iconography. Many hackers will only program one or two programs, then use them to barter for the other programs they need.

It's more like you have discovered the sad truth: Nobody who writes the fluff in the books seems to actually understands the rules or what this implies about the world. If it looks like something written in the fluff seems totally insane to someone who has a basic understanding of the rules, it probably is just insane and should be ignored. Either that or you can just totally change the game mechanics to make the game work like the fluff....

It's also the case that the matrix rules are a morass, but that's harder to solve.

Considering that a program goes down 1 rating point every month, and it takes at least a week to make a patch for it, you can only keep four programs up to date, and thats assuming you spend a large portion of your time coding.

I guess you should take that Ring contact.

Just be a Technomancer; it's easier.

But also massively weaker.

I've found that if you make CFs reasonably prices (and have a static cost more like spells) technos start getting the respect they deserve.

Maybe try getting your GM to adopt FrankTrollman's marvelous Matrix house rules
Other than that I don't know what to say, maybe focus on one aspect of hacking and program the best software for it (say Exploit) that you can.

use cheap drones to code for you. Same number of dice and you can lazze around plus they can patch for you. 350 for a bust a move and not much if u buy a pirated pilot and software autosoft. Same with hacked codeing suites you only need to buy the progs once. And then buy more drones.

No. Please don´t. If you want to use the "drones can have the profession autosoft(Software)" exploit, by all means take your stand and debate a "Software" autosoft useable by agents. (Note that coding this way is limited to rating 4 softs anyway.)

I cant find this refranced in the BB or unwired.

SR4, pg. 240 (German). The rating of a DIY program can´t be higher than the Software skill rating of the coder.

not in my BBB. Nor is it in the errata but it wouldn't be i have the fifth printing.

The not-yet-replaced German edition has some very substantial "additions", so I´m not surprised. Nothing to see here, please move on. (And thanks for the heads-up. )

No problem though I would have to tell my GM that my drone army wasn't legal then he alows it due the fact my runners income is 6k a month (a street level/legal SINers campine)

the problem i guess is that the "hackers write their own software" thing was in BBB, while the degradation rules that makes that impossible is in unwired.

I find the degradation rules to be too harsh, especially since they don't even give a price for getting a black market patch.

unwired, page 94, second column...

iirc, there is an optional rule somewhere in the SR4 english version that says you could limit building skills to not being able to make stuff with a higher rating than the skill.

Coming from the perspective of someone who writes software for a living, those interval rates are realistic and a bit on the fast side. The fluff needs to be changed. A "good" Hacker may write one or two of their own utilities, but there's no way that they would have the time to write the whole suite. Besides, in the software industry there is a "don't reinvent the wheel" kind of philosophy. Common Use programs like Analyze, and Browse are probably as efficient as they can get since there are probably huge companies with programmers scrutinizing and optimizing every line of that (probably quite familiar) code. There's very little chance a "lone gunman" programmer can top what those armies of slave programmers can produce, so they probably wouldn't bother. It's most likely boring code to write anyway. A Hacker would more likely focus on the "Hacking" programs to write himself/herself, but even then they would purchase the ones they don't have the time/energy to write.

While the "realism" point is technically true, it doesn't change the fact that it's bad for the game. "Real" people don't heal serious gunshot wounds in less than a week either (not to difficult to do with SR healing tests), nor do they keep their world class skills without using them for months or years on end (no skill degradation in SR). Still, it's better for the game making those things easier on the PCs, so there's no need having software programming taking such a long time, mages get to write their spell formulae a lot faster.

so drop the time frame to week or day vs whats there right now...

I like the fluff that some professional hackers write their own code, I also like the realistic rules on coding time when it comes to high level software.

When it comes to house rules; I like a minimalist approach, changing as little as possible, since I have a number of casual players who would just as soon play by the book rather than deal with pages and pages of home rules.

So... We have used the following changes:

• At chargen purchased programs with ratings less the character's software skill are assumed to be actually written by (or at least heavily rewritten by) said character.
• Program degradation prevention is automatic for program ratings that are less than the character's software skill.

So if your willing to take aptitude and have software at rating 7, congrats you can have rating 6 programs without dealing with upkeep. Want programs equal to or greater than your skill, then take the time as per the rules, or buy them on the black market.

If you like the above but think it's too generous, than limit the number of such programs to your skill rating.

meh, what i would do is just tell people that if they have cracked software, add the patch cost for each to their lifestyle

This is true... it's also true that generally hardware degrades in rating before software does. Last year's Linux isn't that much worse than this years... but last year's hardware is probably a whole rating point behind.

Program degradation always struck me as kinda wacky and a way to kinda nerf hackers a little bit.

I just solve the problem by having a house rule of no program degradation.

Ok, so we got a professional coder posting here already so we just need a hacker. I actually work in the information security industry so I should probably add my $0.02 worth.

Black Hat hackers *will* write their own code. But as someone else said, there is a tendency to reuse code as much as possible.

So under what circumstances will someone write their own code?

1) There is nothing out there in the market place that does EXACTLY what they want (be it to the same degree of efficiency, depth, etc).
In which case people may look to use/abuse existing code (ala. open source) if possible before deciding to write it from scratch. In which case, a GM may give a player a hand if they're using a similar application.

E.g. PC wants to make an Attack 6 program with a few options. He has an Attack 5 program. GM may reduce the design/build time to some extent.

Otherwise then they'll write the whole thing from scratch.

2) They are writing their own specific exploits for a specific vulnerability they've found.
When I say writing their own exploits, I don't literally mean the Exploit program either. When a Black Hat finds a hole he wants to exploit, he'll need to do a bit of research into the vulnerability, maybe some testing locally first to try pin point exactly how it works, create a test environment before he tries it out on a live site (you don't want to set off alarms), etc.

I'd like to add that in terms of rules, fluff and IRL, hackers at most would write one or two programs from scratch. I certainly don't see them writing their entire software library from scratch. They certainly would modify their programs however.

I'll end this post by adding I've only just started running SR4 and still getting acquainted with the rules but I don't think there's that huge a disconnect between the game and IRL.

Cheers

- J.

Except the whole concept of "cybercombat" is quite ridiculous, when you really think about it... but it's so much fun in a game.

What does writing your own program in the game DO? I mean do you just make up effects of a program or do you combine other program effects into one program?

Only by today's current computing paradigm.

When you consider it is a fully three dimensional virtual environment and the degree to which one can interact with various icons, it makes sense that two icons could try to destroy each other or take control of one another.

Either way, I can suspend my disbelief a bit.

EDIT: Oh but I did want to add - as much as I love the Wireless Matrix and how awesome it is from a GM to be able to better support hacking, the sheer openness of wireless environments in SR4 blows me away. While it is the sort of thing an IT architect would drool over, it's the kind of environment that gives security architects like myself nightmares.

- J.

i suspect there are a whole lot of "msp"'s posing as security pros on the lower levels of matrix operations. that is, the parts that act as a buffer between the megacorps and the unwashed masses...

Honestly, the idea that people making usable programs are writing their own code from scratch is, to me, ridiculous. In terms of current programming it'd be like discarding anything above stdlib. I say "no". It also ignores the standard B/R convention of charging you half the normal cost to create the item.

A far better paradigm in my opinion would be to quarter the times given, halve the threshold and charge half the price to represent access to appropriate libraries on which to build your program.

Have you read Unwired yet? It adds the very important concept of "slaving" peripheral nodes to one master node. It's not something your average Joe on the street is going to bother with (drive around in your car and see how many Open Wireless networks there are!), but it's certainly something that any competent Security professional is going to implement. It also makes life for the Hacker much more interesting as they now have to get into direct contact range with that master Security Node, which usually means going in with the team to penetrate into the heart of some facility. Good times. Welcome back to the "the team" Hacker!

That's a very reasonable house rule, for certain.

So what can you actually DO when you write your own program? Is it just a combo of any other programs or do you just make up an effect within certain parameters?

As far as the rules go, you are just writing an "equivalent" of a program that already exists, but one you write yourself doesn't cost you any , just your time. If you're using the Program Options rules from Unwired, then a PC can decide to "code in" those options when the program is written. This also bypasses the availability limitation, as the PC is writing it themselves.

Of course, if you are within range of a device which is slaved to something, you can't be two far from the master device, because I suspect to be useful, the node has to itself be within range of its master.


Max,
Dunedin, NZ

I got Unwired but I'm still reading all the other books I've bought (I got most of SR4 in 6 weeks).

Architecturally, you would have wireless slaves but the master node should almost NEVER be wireless and where possible, wire the slaves to the master node.

What shits me is the concept of wireless cyberware and to a lesser extent, wireless guns.

- J.

If the slave uses wireless to communicate directly with the master, that is likely true. Nothing I've read so far says it can't be connected by another means (direct beam, fiber, etc.) or a combination of connection methods. In those cases there could be a significant challenge getting within range of the Master node.

Also, just because a node is a slave node it apparently does not automatically turn off its wireless interface since it will "forward wireless connections to its master" and you can attempt to spoof the master's accessID without having to have a hardwired connection. To me this says that a slaved node could also take advantage of the normal "mesh network" by routing communications to and from its master node through other nodes. It just won't read or act on communications that are not tagged with the master node's accessID. If that is the case, the master could potentially be just about anywhere in relation to a slave node.

This is the classic case for Slaving devices to your main Commlink. Then at least the intruder has to get through your toughest point. A group should then (in turn) slave all of their Commlinks to the person with the best Firewall. That creates a nice security "layer" that intruders must get through.

i guess one can compare it to having a single sign on. that is, when you want to access some resource or other on a server, it checks if the user have signed in with a central login server, and gotten a "token" from it. if not, then its either forwarded to said server for login, or simply refused access.

and the wireless cyberware are similar to bluetooth enabled laptops today. they have by default a max signal of 0 (3 meters), and its mostly there for diagnostics.

completely ignoring the age old adage of:"Time is money!" you could be out there, hacking stuff, getting paydata or money for switching off cameras and locks . . or simply overwriting vehicle software to steal cars to sell . .

as far as if there is enough time to patch all the cracked software in a month and still have time to hack. Yes there is. I am not going to give out all the details (one of my players sat down and did all the math/calculations and I wouldnt want to steal their thunder). Hint: there is lots of agents and mainframes (or nexi or something like that). it takes a little while to get up and going but once it is going, the system just runs.

As for the comments that Technos are weaker than hackers.. I think not. They have to specialize more than hackers do since CFs are expensive as hell. But they can be very good at what they do, especially if they really use sprites to their best abilities.

just my 2 worth

Even with that, it's safer to just turn the wireless off, and re-enable it for diagnostics.


Even a specialized otaku is going to be hard-pressed to have a significant edge over a well-built decker. And because of the costs you mention, plus others, an otaku is going to be more of a one-trick pony than a good decker. That also makes them weaker. Building an otaku who's effective at more than just Matrix tricks is highly difficult.

True enough but even the concept of some random hacker in range being able to "hack your gun/cyberarm" really sticks in my craw. Maybe I'm alone in this (here) but given 2/3 of my players all work in IT, I can assure you I'm not alone (in general).

- J.

things is that SR rules have always gone for fun for those not in the know, or action movie style.

there are a lot of people that cry foul at movies and tv series when it comes to the presentation of things.

meh, if a runner feels paranoid (i know that in the biz its a wanted trait, not a mental illness) he can kill all the tags on his gear and turn of the wifi on his cyber. there is more then enough options for that in the books.

still, for joe average, computer security is difficult, or maybe boringly complicated. i wonder how many think about their laptop broadcasting anything they do when they use a public wifi point. even email is more like a postcard then a letter in a envelope that the icons most often show.

and the joe wageslave will be equally ignorant...