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Brazila
So it recently came to light in my gaming group that the physad power of wallrunning is not nearly as impressive as it sounds. Here are the comments from our group so far.
Also while we are on the subject of underpowered physad powers I'd
like to bring up wallrunning. I took it cause it sounds cool and
sounds 100% ninja, but in reality is suxxor. Jarrick and I looked at
the rules, and it allows me to "run" up a wall a number of meters
equal to hits on my run+str test, to keep going I have to find a stop
point or landing, and if I jump off or do anything using gymnastics I
take -2 dice. However you can climb up a wall unassisted at a
threshold of 1.5/m, which is almost the same speed just different
roll. And if you have gecko tape or something similar you can do it
1/m, which is the same speed. So my wall running does absolutely no
good as it is, I can climb with Kokushi at the exact same speed as I
can "Run". I realize in a lower power game We don't wanna over do
it, but I always saw SR as an action game and for 3 BP a mage can
take levitate (granted they have drain and sustaining penalties) and
just fly anywhere. I am not asking to be able to fly, but something
more than a run at climb speed would be cool. I know we don't wanna
change more than we have to in the game, but we have been quick to
nip things that are overpowered, so I'm must asking for equal
consideration for the opposite, I spent a whole magic point on this,
which at this point costs me intiaton plus a stat raise to gain,
which is like 31 karma. Granted that is cause my magic is already
high, but its still a core part of my adept powers, which are the
bread and butter of what makes me unique. I don't have a set
mechanic in mind, but some kind of improvement would be nice.

Climbing is an extended test with a threshold based on the
(distance), 1 Combat Turn interval. And there are many modifiers for
the type of surface you are trying to climb as well. With wall
running, do those surfaces factor the modifiers, or can you wall run
anything? Also, it seems like just a "move" action instead of an
extended test with a combat turn interval. Am I wrong?

I would suggest, if we improved it, that perhaps you could wallrun at
walking speed plus hits on the run test. But we should come together
as a group and discuss these physad powers together. I *should* be
able to come down this weekend....

IP


Brazila
Also noted was....
Wall runners in you-tube videos only slow down when they hit landings,
and then just barely. In fact, they usually wall run at their max
speed... which makes sense, because why would you want to slow down
and lose momentum... it would make you fall sooner.

When ever you see wall running in movies or games, they dont slow down
when wall running. Ninja Turtles and Ninja Gaidan are the best
examples I can think of. They are usually running full speed, then
they suddenly start running on the wall, never slowing down. Granted,
these characters are supposed to be master level, but the point is the
mechanic enables them to run on the wall as fast as they run on the
ground.

I guess the grand exception to that is Trinity on the Matric. I guess
her physad powers were weak, but damn she ran slow... I mean, I
couldve crawled across the lobby in as long as it took them to cross it smile.gif

and....

Well, I imagine that Trinity and others had at least 3 init. passes,
so in fact they were just bullet-timing it all, LOL....

We should come up with a base speed to start but there still should
be a run test involved somewhere. Just the run test is kinda silly
though. Prince of Persia wall-runs like a mofo but I don't think his
STR is super-crazy. Or Trinity or Hayabusa. These guys don't "sprint"
like track stars but their style of wall-running is what we're think
of.

and....
I realize we can't go and balance out every power/spell/piece of gear,
but even if this was just run up a wall at your normal run speed, would
it really be that broken?? I'm not saying I expect that full amount,
but it's very situational and a levitate spell lets you do so much more
for so much less. I know I for one am quick to want to axe things that
are "broken" but they can be "broken" in on either side. I think all
of us have a pretty clear idea of how this should look/work, so lets
just work out something that is balanced and fits that idea. A few
things I have been thinking about with it that I want to clarify
are....If I have gecko tape gloves can I then stop using them, and
start running again, works with the rules IMO, but makes less sense in
my mind. If I am running up the wall can I use the running jump
horizontal rules instead of a vertical jump? or am I stuck using the
vertical even though I am running up the wall?

Just wondering what all the dumpshockers think about it?
Dragnar
Formatting is your friend, keep him close and tell him to have a look over everything you post.
That'll take a while to work through...

EDIT:
Ok, I've read through it all. Early comments:
First things first, yes wall running is overpriced and not all that useful. Furthermore climbing isn't either. Both thanks to levitation being absurdly good, so you should start with changing the spell, not everything else.
Second, wall running is not as bad as you make it. The distance is limited to your hits, not your speed. The way I see it, you actually "wall run" at running speed (ie: way faster than you could climb).
Mx
Yeah to long didn't read biggrin.gif
could you please format that litle better( remove all the line changes)
hobgoblin
lets see, 6 run and 6 str and your looking at maybe 4 meters on average, straight up. thats one, maybe two floors.

dump some edge in there and one could probably go for double that.

and lets not forget about boosting both strength and running skill beyond 6.
Eugene
You run up the wall at your current speed, not climbing speed. So it -is- faster. In our game we pretty much ignore the Running test; if you or your GM don't want to do that, you can always change the rule. Maybe have a base distance (say 5 meters?) and have successes add to that. That way you could climb over walls (watch that monofiliament wire!) and maybe onto the roof of a 2nd story building but you couldn't run up the Renraku pyramid.
Ryu
Climbing takes at least a full combat turn, during which wall running could be used multiple times.

Those who have only one IP are not totally out of luck. You can wall-run an obstacle, and continue running, while the climber looses the movement rate of one turn. In urban settings that can mean escape from pursuit.
Aaron
Even if up was a problem, your player seems to have forgotten about across.
Jhaiisiin
In my own game, my GM was kind enough to very loosely interpret "wall" to any non-floor surface for my character (a dwarf). I was able to run up one wall, across the ceiling of the hallway, down the other wall, and rush into a door using all that distance to my advantage on my attack to knock it down. Again, this was GM allowing what was questionable, but if I can run up a vertical surface X meters without falling, momentum *could* possibly take me across a ceiling, provided I make the distance.

Combine it with Attribute boost (Str) and you get even more distance you can run up/across/down walls. smile.gif
Stahlseele
the only real use i allways saw was for simply getting over walls or into windows on the 1st or second floor . .
only magic meters is too limited in my eyes.
especially, if you compare an adept with wall-running with the ultimate mundane climber . . that guy climbs faster than the adept can run up the wall AND does not fall down . .
Ryu
Hmm. Depends on the structure of the building, but your average 3 IP adept with wallrunning could (with stops on the window sills) easily reach the fifth floor within one combat turn (Assuming an un-munched running pool and a magic of 5). How fast is "the ultimate mundane climber"?

Then you can use wallrunning in combat, while starting to climb somewhere will often get you shot down.
Stahlseele
the ultimate mundane climber was a troll that had somehwere between 40 and 50 dice for climbing and could not fall down, once he had latched onto something . . even with critical botch of all ones he would simply not make any movement instead of plummeting to his death as a smear on the asphalt . . and i think he could climb an average of 14m per combat turn or something like 280m per minute . . will have to look it up
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...e+Climber\
here it is.
completely maxed out 44 dice, if you can spare 2 or 4 dice you can free up 50 build points. and this is without stuff from RC too, so there's room for improvement again/still . .
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 21 2008, 11:58 AM) *
only magic meters is too limited in my eyes.


err, where did that limit come from? no such in either errata or street magic, that i can find.

also, whats stopping the adept from wearing gecko gloves or similar to get some grip when his meters run out?
Stahlseele
ok, i did not think about wallwalk with gecko tape to hold onto it when it runs out . .
i ain't all too sure about 4th ed wallwalk, but in SR3, wallwalk was limited to a distance of magic-attribute meters . .
hobgoblin
only limitation in SR4 is the number of hits you get on a str+running test wink.gif
Ryu
The limit to (magic) meters is found in the description of the power in the German Street Magic. Is this another deviation in translation?
hobgoblin
most likely as i have the english one here, with errata beside it, neither talk about a limit of magic meters (unless a new street magic errata was released recently).

(nope, 1.2, march 20, 2008 still on shadowrun4.com)
Stahlseele
i don't know how i overlooked that all of the time . . i have the english books, but they are at home . .
Ryu
Thanks hobgoblin.

Edit: I just re-read the German Street Magic, and the (magic) cap is not in it. Deeply sorry. Now I´m curious where we got that impression from (my GF has played a wallrunning adept in the past).
crash2029
I see using wall running muck like the Prince of Persia. Fighting in a corridor? Run up the wall, backflip into a flying kick. In a corridor with sec about to turn the corner? Run up the wall and gecko on the celing. Need access to upper floors? Wall run straight up, jump and gecko. Heck of a boost.
Stahlseele
i just checked.
QUOTE
The adept can run up to Magic attribute meters on walls or other vertical surfaces.

this is in NSRCG3 . . i don't think mcmackie really got that so glaringly wrong . . now to find out where he got it from O.o
hobgoblin
a SR3 leftover?
Stahlseele
yeah, the NSRCG is a character generator for SR3.
i will have to look it up in the SR3 books some time
hobgoblin
ok, so far i have been assuming this thread was about SR4...
wind_in_the_stones
Wall running can get you up a smooth wall. Climbing (unassisted) can't. But the BBB doesn't say anything about that...
bernardo
What if I want to wall run and then jump (maybe using the Great Leap power) to reach somewhere even higher, would it be, as for the jumping table, a vertical jump or a running jump?
Ryu
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 22 2008, 02:10 AM) *
ok, so far i have been assuming this thread was about SR4...

Is, too. I said I´m sorry.
Brazila
Well my group decided to just rules this you can run up Magic + hits on a (running+strength) roll in meters. That is better but not broken, and fine with me.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (bernardo @ Dec 22 2008, 06:32 AM) *
What if I want to wall run and then jump (maybe using the Great Leap power) to reach somewhere even higher, would it be, as for the jumping table, a vertical jump or a running jump?


a quick houserule from my side would be a vertical jump with a lower threshold (maybe meters, rather then meters x 2).
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