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Morrigana
You know, I was just thinking: Since, pretty much, the Wireless Matrix can present massive problems for keeping people out... Why not hide the data? You've effectively got unlimited storage space anyway.

What I would do: I would, first, set aside the data I want to store. Then I would download the entire Library of Congress, every political treatise or speach made since the 1740s, and every bit of free porn I could. Then, I'd split my data into 200 parts and scatter it among that mess. No hacker in the world would be able to break into my system and retrieve the data before Black IC could kill them.
Crusher Bob
Congratulations, you've re-discovered Security through obscurity
Morrigana
Actually, I was just trying to start a discussion of realistic methods of countering hackers under the Wireless Matrix.

With the RAW, there's virtually unlimited storage space anywhere. Most people should reasonably know this. What's to really stop every security system from doing something like this and making hacking virtually impossible? The authors themselves can simply assign each part a different, unique, keyword and write the keywords down on a piece of paper. Then, any time they need something, they can just type the keywords in and let the system do the search and compile the data. Throw in random keyword searches from time to time or put in the wrong keyword in one spot at times on purpose to make it harder for an intruder in the system to know what they're supposed to search for.

The issue is, with how the Wireless Matrix is set up, there's nothing stopping you from doing this quickly. In a real world example? You'd run out of storage space long before you ever did it right. And I'm sure storage space was enough of an issue under SR3 to prevent it from being done regularly. But, with the current? Realistically, what's to stop everyone from doing it? It would be even worse with trying to track down necessary keywords within a megacorp, as then you might have to shift through thousands per minute just to find the 200 you'd need, while still having no guarantee that you found the right ones.

This would mean that, first, to get the data, they need the keywords. Which means they have to break into your facility, steal them, and then do the search. You could, of course, counter that by changing the keywords at the end of the day and not issuing the new list until the next day.
Dragnar
As a small aside, internally data is stored scattered into small parts interjected with various other stuff on modern day computers anyway (which is why you should defrag your HD every once in a while), with the OS keeping a list as to which parts belong to the what file. You could intentionally mislabel that list, requiring a specific key to get the right parts, but from an effect point of view, that's roughly equivalent to just encrypting the files in the first place.


EDIT: And using a not reverse-engineerable key on a piece of paper is the equivalent of using a one-time pad encryption, which is unbreakable if implemented right even today. It's getting the key to be not deductable from the hidden data which is the hard part, meaning a regular old key to get the "right" files is no different than breaking the key on a regular encryption scheme.
The Jake
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 22 2008, 07:15 AM) *
Actually, I was just trying to start a discussion of realistic methods of countering hackers under the Wireless Matrix.

With the RAW, there's virtually unlimited storage space anywhere. Most people should reasonably know this. What's to really stop every security system from doing something like this and making hacking virtually impossible? The authors themselves can simply assign each part a different, unique, keyword and write the keywords down on a piece of paper. Then, any time they need something, they can just type the keywords in and let the system do the search and compile the data. Throw in random keyword searches from time to time or put in the wrong keyword in one spot at times on purpose to make it harder for an intruder in the system to know what they're supposed to search for.

The issue is, with how the Wireless Matrix is set up, there's nothing stopping you from doing this quickly. In a real world example? You'd run out of storage space long before you ever did it right. And I'm sure storage space was enough of an issue under SR3 to prevent it from being done regularly. But, with the current? Realistically, what's to stop everyone from doing it? It would be even worse with trying to track down necessary keywords within a megacorp, as then you might have to shift through thousands per minute just to find the 200 you'd need, while still having no guarantee that you found the right ones.

This would mean that, first, to get the data, they need the keywords. Which means they have to break into your facility, steal them, and then do the search. You could, of course, counter that by changing the keywords at the end of the day and not issuing the new list until the next day.


Congratulations. You've just re-discovered a one time pad.

I'm not sure I've read enough of the rules yet. My solution to data security is to write data with a paper and pen.

I have now just revolutionised Matrix security.

*sticks middle finger up at technomancers everywhere*

- J.
The Jake
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 22 2008, 06:02 AM) *
You know, I was just thinking: Since, pretty much, the Wireless Matrix can present massive problems for keeping people out... Why not hide the data? You've effectively got unlimited storage space anyway.

What I would do: I would, first, set aside the data I want to store. Then I would download the entire Library of Congress, every political treatise or speach made since the 1740s, and every bit of free porn I could. Then, I'd split my data into 200 parts and scatter it among that mess. No hacker in the world would be able to break into my system and retrieve the data before Black IC could kill them.


Technomancers echoes can easily beat this strategy. But like someone else said - security through obscurity always fails eventually.

- J.
Digital Heroin
As stated, you would still need an index, or some way to re-assemble the data. A hacker who has no idea what might be in your system and is just trolling for data might be fragged right up by the obscurity, but one who knew what they were looking for, or that you had good data, would just seek out the index/re-assembler.

Add to that the fact that any time anyone needed to access the data, they would have to re-assemble it, and that takes processing power. It might seem infinite, but if a major corp does that with all of their data, it's going to be one hell of a system hog breaking up and re-building everything for each query.
Ustio
On the subject of one tiome pads:

My group once used the following one time pad to secure our real-time radio chatter:

* Take a lingua-soft
* crack it to remove copy protection,
* Now access it's internal dictionary and using atmospheric noise mix it up
* Make as many copies as required for your team
* Have everyone run it on wireless disabled platform

Congratulations your radio conversations will now go like this:

Street Sam: House! Gesticulating tables

Mage: Urinating dog, urinating dog

Hacker: Lopsided turkeys juicing oranges several jobs Yellow 13


I defy a hacker to be able to do anything about this in the tiome available (remembering that if he can get access to your wireless ware he culd just shoot you in the head)
The Jake
QUOTE (Ustio @ Dec 22 2008, 02:28 PM) *
On the subject of one tiome pads:

My group once used the following one time pad to secure our real-time radio chatter:

* Take a lingua-soft
* crack it to remove copy protection,
* Now access it's internal dictionary and using atmospheric noise mix it up
* Make as many copies as required for your team
* Have everyone run it on wireless disabled platform

Congratulations your radio conversations will now go like this:

Street Sam: House! Gesticulating tables

Mage: Urinating dog, urinating dog

Hacker: Lopsided turkeys juicing oranges several jobs Yellow 13


I defy a hacker to be able to do anything about this in the tiome available (remembering that if he can get access to your wireless ware he culd just shoot you in the head)



I'll just add a touch of realism here and state that if implemented correctly, a one time pad is the only undefeatable form of encryption.

Ustio -
That would definitely work. Just make sure that there are enough numbers generated to provide codes for an entire run and those linguasofts are guarded or you could be in deep trouble. biggrin.gif

- J.
Dragnar
QUOTE (Ustio @ Dec 22 2008, 02:28 PM) *
On the subject of one tiome pads:

My group once used the following one time pad to secure our real-time radio chatter:

* Take a lingua-soft
* crack it to remove copy protection,
* Now access it's internal dictionary and using atmospheric noise mix it up
* Make as many copies as required for your team
* Have everyone run it on wireless disabled platform

(...)

I defy a hacker to be able to do anything about this in the tiome available (remembering that if he can get access to your wireless ware he culd just shoot you in the head)


That's not a one time pad, that a simple exchange cipher (as it's functionally identical to talking in klingon or any other language nobody on the other side knows), a rather low security encryption. Yes, it's difficult to crack in real-time today, but really easy to crack at all, and SR rules tell us that doing so is trivial in 2070 even in short amounts of time.
Blade
QUOTE (Ustio @ Dec 22 2008, 02:28 PM) *
On the subject of one tiome pads:

My group once used the following one time pad to secure our real-time radio chatter:

* Take a lingua-soft
* crack it to remove copy protection,
* Now access it's internal dictionary and using atmospheric noise mix it up
* Make as many copies as required for your team
* Have everyone run it on wireless disabled platform

Congratulations your radio conversations will now go like this:

Street Sam: House! Gesticulating tables

Mage: Urinating dog, urinating dog

Hacker: Lopsided turkeys juicing oranges several jobs Yellow 13


I defy a hacker to be able to do anything about this in the tiome available (remembering that if he can get access to your wireless ware he culd just shoot you in the head)


First, this isn't exactly unbreakable. As soon as you repeat the same word, you weaken your encryption of this word. For example, if everyone says "House!" every time they see a guard, it won't be difficult to interpret it as "Contact!".
Second, it's not very different from standard encryption... I've seen a few players explaining their "highly complicated and totally unbreakable" encryption schemes. Most of the time, they were either OTP or about the same (but not as effective) as today's encryption algorithms.
Third, as a GM I'm totally against this. There are reasons why there are encrypt and decrypt programs: abstraction, because not everybody wants to play "Shadowrun: Cryptographist edition" and gameplay. If an unbreakable system existed in Shadowrun, hacking would be totally impossible.
Heath Robinson
Multilayer OTFE filesystem. Filled with layer after layer of honeypots. Hidden in the noise of a troll-on-dwarf low budget porn sim DIR-X wet record. Interleaved between the POVs. Copy protected and Encrypted.

Not only is it now so ridiculously huge that you will have to try to crack it in the node it originates (Unwired, thank you for giving us something that can't be downloaded), but it'll probably be beneath the notice of the hacker ("heh, crappy porn, must be slow around here") .

Consider paying Dissonants to run raids on the archive RRs and corrupt the data (and as much else as you can) contained therein. With the emergence of Technomancers and the archive RRs we may see an increase in the manual bookkeeping for sensitive data by low budget groups with things to hide (paranoia, more than practicality) but for a large organisation that's far less possible. But they'll surely be able to afford hiring a few submerged Dissonants, even Dissonants know the value of nuyen. If you can't, then Technos can still learn the Corrupt CF and Submerge, but a Dissonant probably wants to try invading Techno RRs for the entertainment value.
The Jake
QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 22 2008, 02:39 PM) *
First, this isn't exactly unbreakable. As soon as you repeat the same word, you weaken your encryption of this word. For example, if everyone says "House!" every time they see a guard, it won't be difficult to interpret it as "Contact!".


When it starts repeating its no longer a "one time pad"... nyahnyah.gif

Comes back to what I said about the implementation... biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 22 2008, 02:39 PM) *
Second, it's not very different from standard encryption... I've seen a few players explaining their "highly complicated and totally unbreakable" encryption schemes. Most of the time, they were either OTP or about the same (but not as effective) as today's encryption algorithms.
Third, as a GM I'm totally against this. There are reasons why there are encrypt and decrypt programs: abstraction, because not everybody wants to play "Shadowrun: Cryptographist edition" and gameplay. If an unbreakable system existed in Shadowrun, hacking would be totally impossible.


I was thinking that if I was going to houserule encryption, I'd err on the side of the rules except in cases where the encryption/decryption itself in and by itself is intended to be a plot device (e.g. "Only XYZ hardware at ABC location can decrypt this file!"). How does that sound?

- J.
hobgoblin
only grief can come from all this...

i can see why blue planet basically tossed hacking to the dogs in preference to good old break-ins and intimidation...
Malachi
QUOTE (Ustio @ Dec 22 2008, 09:28 AM) *
On the subject of one tiome pads:

My group once used the following one time pad to secure our real-time radio chatter:

* Take a lingua-soft
* crack it to remove copy protection,
* Now access it's internal dictionary and using atmospheric noise mix it up
* Make as many copies as required for your team
* Have everyone run it on wireless disabled platform

Logic hole in the highlighted section. Unless the entire team is communicating by Commlinks connected with wires, then your communications device is wireless enabled. Your linguasoft needs some way to access the communications data (the voices) in order to encrypt (translate) or decrypt ("untranslate" the word into English). Therefore the platform running your Linguasoft (even though it may be on a Wireless disabled device) is still connected to a wireless enabled device (your Commlink sending and receiving signals), and it needs access to that data in real-time to boot. All you have created is a slight inconvenience in that an intruder Hacker needs to go from your Wireless Commlink to your non-wireless Commlink (but connected to your Wireless Commlink via cable or skinlink) in order to get the Decryption codes.

QUOTE (Blade)
Third, as a GM I'm totally against this. There are reasons why there are encrypt and decrypt programs: abstraction, because not everybody wants to play "Shadowrun: Cryptographist edition" and gameplay. If an unbreakable system existed in Shadowrun, hacking would be totally impossible.

QFT. I don't see why this whole "encryption" issue keeps coming up. There are many things in SR that are fantastical, ridiculous, and/or abstracted heavily. If it makes the game fun, then who cares if its not "realistic" enough. Unbreakable encryption is no fun.
Blade
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 22 2008, 04:13 PM) *
I was thinking that if I was going to houserule encryption, I'd err on the side of the rules except in cases where the encryption/decryption itself in and by itself is intended to be a plot device (e.g. "Only XYZ hardware at ABC location can decrypt this file!"). How does that sound?


That's more or less what's in Unwired. There are 3 kinds of encryption:
* basic encryption (BBB's encryption)
* strong encryption, it takes longer to encrypt the file/node but the longer it takes the stronger the encryption is. (I don't remember the exact rules)
* dramatic encryption: uses a special encryption that needs something specific to work (as in your example). Of course, this kind of encryption can't be used by everyone for everything. Actually, properly implemented OTP apply here (and you can't use them for real-time communication).
The Jake
QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 22 2008, 03:17 PM) *
Logic hole in the highlighted section. Unless the entire team is communicating by Commlinks connected with wires, then your communications device is wireless enabled. Your linguasoft needs some way to access the communications data (the voices) in order to encrypt (translate) or decrypt ("untranslate" the word into English). Therefore the platform running your Linguasoft (even though it may be on a Wireless disabled device) is still connected to a wireless enabled device (your Commlink sending and receiving signals), and it needs access to that data in real-time to boot. All you have created is a slight inconvenience in that an intruder Hacker needs to go from your Wireless Commlink to your non-wireless Commlink (but connected to your Wireless Commlink via cable or skinlink) in order to get the Decryption codes.


QFT. I don't see why this whole "encryption" issue keeps coming up. There are many things in SR that are fantastical, ridiculous, and/or abstracted heavily. If it makes the game fun, then who cares if its not "realistic" enough. Unbreakable encryption is no fun.


Not necessarily.

If the lingua soft is not repeated and the background noise used as a cipher is truly "random" then I'd suggest that so long as none of the text is repeated, it counts as an OTP.

If the attacking party however, was able to learn which linguasoft was used, I'd rule they have a fighting chance to crack it....

- J.
Blade
Yes but the problem is that the vocabulary used in infiltration/combat situation is limited to a few words. These words will be repeated, and consequently, be cracked.
Aaron
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 22 2008, 12:15 AM) *
Actually, I was just trying to start a discussion of realistic methods of countering hackers under the Wireless Matrix.

I believe I can offer a method of good security against hackers with one word. That word is "patrols."
Steampunk
I totaly agree to Blade, imho the whole idea to use some home-brew cryphtographic system breaks the rules. The rules are abstract and as long as the players don't want to change the game into a cryptographic discussion group, the should work inside the rules - or change them. This isn't a bad idea, because the SR4 encryption rules are (imho!) pretty stupid.
The Jake
QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 22 2008, 04:41 PM) *
Yes but the problem is that the vocabulary used in infiltration/combat situation is limited to a few words. These words will be repeated, and consequently, be cracked.


Short answer: maybe/probably.

Long answer: It REALLY depends.
If the pad is a proper one time pad, then its fine. Upon further examination, one could reasonably argue it isn't a proper one time pad but I think it is highly debatable.

A proper one time pad would be something like each party member having a pad of over a large number of combinations for all conversation. Each sentence would decrement the count so all could understand the conversation. As long as all the PCs did not use the entire pad or get to a point where the pad ran out but the encryption had to continue (and thus, repeat/reuse the pad), then their encryption should be safe.

That is however assuming the standard was reasonably "strong" (by SR4 standards) and the pad was distributed using appropriate "out of band" channels and not intercepted, etc.

- J.
Prime Mover
I've found that time is the hackers enemy. The longer you can keep said hacker in the system the more likely something or someone is gonna spot them. Layered nodes,choke points,honey pots,pass by pass analyze etc,unique encryption etc... These things have been the only "speed bumps" that our now experienced hacker gets caught up by.
Chrysalis
You can have every person loaded with the digitised collection of the Library of Congress. Every word has a numerical value, no number is repeated, every ten minutes the book is changed.

However, maybe cryptography has not been cracked, but random number generation has been. So in the above example a strong decrypter knows every random number outputted and also uses signal analysis to verify decryption. All of this can happen in the millisecond (if we are handwaving space, let's also handwave speed) needed for it to be now decrypted real-time.
hobgoblin
or simply, the rules as they exist are designed to be playable and enjoyable by non-techies...

the other option is "space opera"...
Blade
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 22 2008, 04:59 PM) *
A proper one time pad would be something like each party member having a pad of over a large number of combinations for all conversation. Each sentence would decrement the count so all could understand the conversation. As long as all the PCs did not use the entire pad or get to a point where the pad ran out but the encryption had to continue (and thus, repeat/reuse the pad), then their encryption should be safe.

That is however assuming the standard was reasonably "strong" (by SR4 standards) and the pad was distributed using appropriate "out of band" channels and not intercepted, etc.


And also assuming that the synchronization is perfect.
All the opposition needs to do is to spoof incoming messages, or use jammers to disrupt the signals and the pads will be desynchronized. Eventually, they'll run out of pads.
Malachi
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 22 2008, 12:23 PM) *
or simply, the rules as they exist are designed to be playable and enjoyable by non-techies...

the other option is "space opera"...

This, I think, is the point. Every group seems to have their "hot spots" where they have a significant amount of RL knowledge and the rules abstraction isn't good enough for them. If real life is so darned interesting that people want the rules to emulate it exactly, then why are we playing a game with AI's, Dragons, Magic, and VR Computers?
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Dec 22 2008, 03:51 PM) *
Multilayer OTFE filesystem. Filled with layer after layer of honeypots. Hidden in the noise of a troll-on-dwarf low budget porn sim DIR-X wet record. Interleaved between the POVs. Copy protected and Encrypted.

Not only is it now so ridiculously huge that you will have to try to crack it in the node it originates (Unwired, thank you for giving us something that can't be downloaded), but it'll probably be beneath the notice of the hacker ("heh, crappy porn, must be slow around here") .

Consider paying Dissonants to run raids on the archive RRs and corrupt the data (and as much else as you can) contained therein. With the emergence of Technomancers and the archive RRs we may see an increase in the manual bookkeeping for sensitive data by low budget groups with things to hide (paranoia, more than practicality) but for a large organisation that's far less possible. But they'll surely be able to afford hiring a few submerged Dissonants, even Dissonants know the value of nuyen. If you can't, then Technos can still learn the Corrupt CF and Submerge, but a Dissonant probably wants to try invading Techno RRs for the entertainment value.


Manual bookkeeping?
It would be easier make a device who can read/write only when wireless-disabled (the block should be completely hardware managed, no software involved so no way to hack it), that writes on a specificaly developed (very complex) storage unit with one-of-the-kind istruction set hardwired on a passkey kept in a place accessible only by certain peoples. The device would send the instruction from the operative system into the passkey which would translate it (at hardware level) into istruction for the device on how (with which binary codes) to and where (at which memory cells) to write/read (the catastore should have alot of redundant space that is filled with random values). Two different passkeys would produce two completely different data stuctures.
In order to read the data in the storage unit you have to use either the device or another device that can phisicaly interface with the storage unit, you need the passkey (or a piece of software that emulates its working) associated to the user that wrote on the storage unit. Obviously what you realy need is a phisical interface for the storage unit in order to access it, than you can just make an immage of the memory, in order to use it you need a program that emulates the device hardware (circuits can be expressed as logical formulas) and the passkey code (passkeys are just codes expressed as hardware).
This system is basicaly an encriptation kept on phisical mediums, in order to break it you need to analize (and so to aquire) the hardware or its schematics (kept on a phisical storage unit in a safe place, no way around it requires to waork in the flash) and the passkey, not unbreakable but is better than handwriting everything (just think the space required to store the books, and the vulnerability to damage, or the possibility of a camera taking a picture of the data, or the time required to read and write the thing, and what happens if the thing you want to save can't be witten on paper?).
Maybe I've given to some GM some ideas for future 'runs.... maybe I've just ranted alot; just my 0.02 nuyen.gif anyway.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 22 2008, 06:04 PM) *
And also assuming that the synchronization is perfect.
All the opposition needs to do is to spoof incoming messages, or use jammers to disrupt the signals and the pads will be desynchronized. Eventually, they'll run out of pads.



I would point out that encriptation or not the signal is there and if the opposition is on it's homeground they will just triangulate the position of its source and send the old fashioned countermisures your way, decriptation can wait for later (when the intruders are dead or captive waiting for interrogation). If not on its homeground the opposition probably just want to know what signal you are using to track you, your chatting is no paydata and again decriptation can wait. I would be worried of hacking attempts on gear though.
The Jake
QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 22 2008, 06:04 PM) *
And also assuming that the synchronization is perfect.
All the opposition needs to do is to spoof incoming messages, or use jammers to disrupt the signals and the pads will be desynchronized. Eventually, they'll run out of pads.


Eventually, yes they'd run out and that's the fear. You'd have to generate a sufficiently large list of OTPs and also ensure the algorithm used to generate them is kept safe.
An attacker would have to know or suspect they're using OTPs in order to brute force them - that in itself may take awhile. Even then why would you when there are smarter methods of cryptographic attacks.

You'd use proper authentication and authorisation to verify someone is who they claim to be first before applying the OTP (public key cryptography perhaps?). This would impose an additional layer of controls that would greatly improve your chances of synchronisation.

All electronics are susceptible to jamming so you're kinda hosed there regardless.

Suppose they could always revert back to Drow Sign Language? nyahnyah.gif

- J.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Dec 22 2008, 09:39 PM) *
Manual bookkeeping?
It would be easier make a device who can read/write only when wireless-disabled

It has a network connection at some point. Technos can hack it, or visit an archive RR and retrieve all the information on it without hacking it. Electronics not connected to the Matrix apparently interact with the Resonance as well, so even removing the network connection won't save you. The only guaranteed way to avoid leaking data into RRs is to never digitise your data.
The Jake
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Dec 23 2008, 12:36 AM) *
It has a network connection at some point. Technos can hack it, or visit an archive RR and retrieve all the information on it without hacking it. Electronics not connected to the Matrix apparently interact with the Resonance as well, so even removing the network connection won't save you. The only guaranteed way to avoid leaking data into RRs is to never digitise your data.


Yup. This is why pen and paper works! biggrin.gif

- J.
Chrysalis
As an aside how basic does tech need to be before technomancers cannot access it? Can a technomancer say access a 286 SX which does not have a modem? What about an ENIGMA?
hobgoblin
im still a bit hard pressed to figure out where exactly its stated that resonance can allow access to something that has no wired or wireless connection to the matrix.

that is, unless resonance can piggyback on the very power grid (and that can be taken care of by a generator).
Heath Robinson
Nobody knows. Not even in the setting. The Resonance hasn't been defined very much, so the limits of its capabilities are entirely arbitrary. This opens up doors for GMs to create their own interpretation but also makes it impossible to say "this is what Resonance can not do". It's boring, because in order to manipulate the Resonance means you need to manipulate the GM.

Speaking for myself, and myself alone, I'd rule that anything that hasn't been transmitted to, through, or picked up by anything using a standard System won't have an impct in the Resonance. That's primarily because I subscribe to the theory that the Resonance is a heavily distributed entity (which might be sapient, but is likely not) that's built into the low level code of the core System programming.

It might possibly be the primitive eGhost of a Japanese software engineer. The resonance might just use the resonant EM frequency of the atmosphere to communicate with devices that don't have a network connection.


Hobgoblin,
I'm going off the assertions of other people on Dumpshock. Possibly corrupted by my memory.

After looking through Unwired et al. I don't know. Geneva in FC seems to imply that the Resonance doesn't need any kind of coherent network access since half the city is down at any one point if I recall correctly and the Technos there have created themselves a resonance network. I believe you can create sprites in systems that aren't connected to the Matrix as well and command them to enter their Resonance Realm. There's no actual information here, see: arbitrary capabilities.
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