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I'm interested in creating an AI character with the 'pilot origin' quality but i have some questions :

Which attribute must be used instead of reaction to pilot a drone ?

What happens if the AI learn a skill like Artisan and locksmith and tries to use it with, lets say an Otomo drone ?
Which attribute must be used instead of reaction to pilot a drone ?

Probably Response.
QUOTE (16fatal @ Dec 24 2008, 01:05 PM) *
Which attribute must be used instead of reaction to pilot a drone ?

What happens if the AI learn a skill like Artisan and locksmith and tries to use it with, lets say an Otomo drone ?

Might I recommend the table on p. 105, Unwired?
Heath Robinson
They're jumped in, so they use Response. Check page 105 of Unwired for the rundown.

Now asking what they use for Gunnery is a different and more important question given that they don't have an Agility score and you're not a Drone so you don't use Pilot. You can end up using Agility + Gunnery if you're using active targetting.
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Dec 24 2008, 03:19 PM) *
Now asking what they use for Gunnery is a different and more important question given that they don't have an Agility score and you're not a Drone so you don't use Pilot. You can end up using Agility + Gunnery if you're using active targetting.

you use sensor. everything uses sensor for gunnery. except possibly for remote controlling using a command program, which may or may not overwrite sensor (it depends on which rule trumps which... pretty much a GM's call)
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Page 125 @ BBB)
Gunnery (Agility)
The Gunnery skill governs the use of all vehicle-mounted weapons, whether in mounts, pintles or turrets. This skill includes manual and sensor-enhanced gunnery.

QUOTE (Page 162 @ BBB)
Characters can use the vehicle's Sensor Attribute to help with Gunnery. They can do this by two means: passive targeting and active targeting.

Passive Targeting
In passive targeting, the vehicle's Sensor attribute substitutes for Agility (or Pilot) as the linked Attribute, so the attacker rolls Gunnery + Sensor. The target's Signature modifiers are also applied as a dice pool modifier.

Active Targeting
Active targeting uses a vehicle's Sensors to lock onto a target. To use active targeting, the character/vehicle must first make a Sensor Test to lock onto a target. This requires a Simple Action (see Use Sensors, p. 239). If the character/vehicle wins the test, the net hits are added as a dice pool modifier to the subsequent Gunnery Test. If no hits are achieved, the sensors fail to lock onto the target and an active targeting attack cannot be made.

Once a target has been locked onto, active targeting can be used against it without requiring additional Sensor Tests. If the target vehicle somehow breaks sensor contact, a new target lock must be acquired.

The rule which replaces Agility with Sensor is the Passive Targeting rule. No other rule performs this replacement. If an AI makes an Active Targeting attack, they roll Agility + Gunnery. They don't possess an Agility by RAW and therefore just roll Gunnery (or appropriate Autosoft).
Heath, the only time you'd actually use Gunnery + Agility to fire a gun, is if you were in a jeep firing the MG in the pintle mount. IE: anytime you're PHYSICALLY using a vehicle mounted weapon. A drone lacking a physical body obviously won't be doing this (well i guess an Otomo could physically man the pintle gun... in which case it doesn't have an agility rating :)).

The tables are pretty clear... p105 Unwired.... For each and every one of these... one is a drone rating (sensor), the other two are pieces of software run either on the drone or on your system.
If you're jumped in you use Sensor + Gunnery. (Feel the drone, be the drone, the rush of the engine is my heartbeat)
If you're remote controlling Command + Gunnery. (Oh cool, I'm playing Mechwarrior, ph34r my l337 remote control gaming rig)
If the drones using it's doggy brain, Pilot + Weapon Autosoft. (Doggy brain, shoot anything which doesn't reply with a friendly IFF code)

The purpose of an active lock-on is to add additional dice to the pool for Gunnery tests... I've just listed *3* different gunnery tests above. Remember it takes a complex action to fire a vehicle gun remotely. So using a simple action is either a placeholder like 'take aim' to help you later after doing another simple action that IP. Or it's because you're having trouble hitting so you're going for any extra dice you can manage.

The purpose of 'rigging' a drone and jumping into it is then you get additional dice from your control rig, while exposing your rigger to a little extra danger.

Also note bene, Command replaces response for remote controlling a drone's defense pool. So it might pay for an AI (though not necessarily a pilot AI) to have a Command program as one of it's built in natives. A rating 12 Command program on an AI would make for a sick pseudo-rigger (not really a rigger since the AI never really jumps into the drone just remote controls it... and really the AI doesn't want to because if the AI does jump into the drone and the drone gets toasted so does the AI if I recall that section of the AI rules correctly).
Heath Robinson
The table on Page 105, Unwired is a cheat sheet. A quick reference. It's simplified for speed. It's wrong, as well.

We have to read the actual rules on page 162 (I quoted them already) to determine what we roll. It states that we only replace Agility or Pilot with Sensor when we are using Passive Targeting. Otherwise we roll Agility + Gunnery, or Pilot + Targeting. Those are the fact of the situation. The Unwired cheat sheet cannot, by Catalyst policy, contradict previous rules on the subject.

The previous rules on the subject say that we use Gunnery for vehicle mounted weapons, and that means it rolls Agility + Gunnery except where noted otherwise. Active targeting notes that we make a Sensor test and add the Net Hits onto the Attack roll as a DP modifier. It further notes that we don't have to make any further Sensor Tests to attack the target. Meaning you roll normal Gunnery instead of using Passive Targeting.

If you want to houserule that you always roll Sensor in place of Agility when using Gunnery, that's fine. It's irrelevant to this discussion, because this discussion is on the RAW.
No Heath read the section. If you want to resort to full fledged rules lawyering, so can I.

The chart never addresses 'first-person' physically gunning a vehicle mounted weapon, it's only a guide to remotely issuing commands/controlling drones.
p162 is never contradicted by the chart
p220 is not contradicted by the chart (controlling devices remotely, the chart merely clarifies that paragraph w/ specifics), I think this is where our disconnect comes from
p238 is not contradicted by the chart (jumping into drones, use riggers own abilities, superceded by the 'fire a weapon system' paragraph, which refers to sensors rules page)

The active targetting rules makes sense for all 3 fire modes, if you think about it from a riggers POV. Normally a rigger would be limited to sensor + gunnery even if jumped into a drone for passive. Many drones only have a sensor rating of 2, while the riggers agility may be much higher. Switching to active targetting then gives bonus dice for locking target, plus switches the limited 'sensor' for the riggers own agility. The only problem is 'jumping into' is a complex action, and locking is a simple action, meaning you're now delaying the bang-bang for at least 2 IP's (1IP if already jumped).

Similarly, issuing commands is only a simple action but is limited by pilot + autosoft. You could issue the same command to multiple drones at once to lock the target, then issue the command to fire at it using the pilot + targeting w/ the extra dice for making the sensor test for active targeting.

Finally we come to remote controlling. Well those rules state to substitute 'command' as the linked attribute. Active targetting does not conflict with those and again provides a method to add extra dice provided you're willing to wait an extra IP before being able to shoot.

Please point out where in any of that, I've cited house rules?

The problem again comes from the oversight that AI's don't have physical attributes when they wrote the section for rigging AI's. And nobody ever thought to replace meat attributes for VR w/ mental ones like they did for the astral (yes that would be a houserule... FYI: the astral agility substitute is logic, so it would make sense to use for an AI's agility attribute)

The net effect of this is it's almost always best for an AI to simply use a command program to 'remote control' rather than jumping in itself as a rigger.
Heath Robinson
  1. You roll Gunnery for attacks from a Vehicle-mounted weapon.
  2. Gunnery is linked to Agility
  3. Normally you roll Weapon Skill + Linked Stat when making an attack opposed roll

  4. From 3 and 1: You roll Gunnery + Linked Stat when making an attack roll with a Vehicle-mounted weapon
  5. From 4 and 2: You roll Gunnery + Agility when making an attack roll with a Vehicle-mounted weapon

  6. You have two choices when you attack whilst Jumped In: Passive Sensor Targeting and Active Sensor Targeting
  7. When you use Passive Sensor Targeting you substitute Sensor for Agility on the attack roll
  8. When you use Active Sensor Targeting you make a Sensor Test once and add the hits to the future attack roll

  9. From 4 and 7: When you use Passive Sensor Targeting you roll Gunnery + Sensor when making an attack roll with a Vehicle-mounted weapon
  10. From 4 and 8: When you use Active Sensor Targeting you make a Sensor Test once and add the hits to your future Gunnery + Agility rolls
  11. From 6, 9 and 10: You can legitimately choose to roll Gunnery + Agility when Jumped in

  12. The table on page 105, Unwired lists Gunnery + Sensor for Jumped In attack rolls.
  13. Later rules books can't overrule previous books is a Catalyst policy

  14. From 11, 12 and 13: The table on page 105, Unwired is not a valid source of information on the dice pools you roll for Jumped In gunnery

Logic, laid out explicitly for you to criticise.
To other posters: I think I see an answer to the AI character not having physical attributes...
p158 under "Pilot": "In general, Pilot substitutes for character attributes (typically agility, reaction, intuition, and Logic) for any success tests the vehicle makes.
Since the AI w/ the quality started life as a 'Pilot' program, I'd suggest to use it's "Rating Attribute" as defined on p89 as it's 'pilot' rating. And substitute that rating for any tests in which it needs something to substitute for agility.

One I didn't argue that the chart was the source of the rules, I only argued that I don't see anything in the chart which the rules as written in the BBB contradict (and still don't). I relied entirely on BBB cites in my prior post. If you're going to claim a rulebook published by the SR authors is incorrect, then you need to take on the onus to prove your position (which you haven't). The only thing you have shown, is the chart is incomplete and doesn't include an Attack (active) entry. There's a big difference between something contradicting and something not having all the possible rules combinations charted. (in something which is supposed to only be a quick reference chart, not replace the rulebook)

You admit the chart has a correct entry on your line #7. Both you and the chart agree.

The chart itself is titled "COMMON RIGGER/DRONE TESTS" (EMPHASIS REQUIRED). My own experience has been, most riggers don't take the time to use active targetting because they don't have time to waste full IP locking the target rather than spewing lead as soon as possible. The only time I commonly see active targetting used is when issuing commands to autonomous drones because they can still fire in the same IP (Read: Not jumped in).
The introduction of Response into everything was done via the dreaded FAQ, and has up to this point not found it´s way into the main book explicitly.

If you consider the tables in Augmentation and Unwired to be in violation of the "using the riggers skills and attributes" principle, you are way out of luck. Matrix stats replace physical stats due to "jumping in" being a VR activity. Active Targeting only specifies a bonus to a Gunnery test, not the components of said pool. A linked attribute is not fixed for all applications. The tables in Augmentation and Unwired reflect developer intent.
Heath Robinson
Thank you for pointing me to the FAQ. What can I say? Most parts of the FAQ I've started to read and stopped because the questions have easy answers, I kind of dismissed the FAQ as being pretty pointless to read. The Matrix and Rigging rules are laid out horribly. Some kind of logical hierarchy is in use, but I'm pretty sure that tribute to the Elder gods was more of a concern than ease of use.

So you do always use Sensor instead of Agility. Blah. Why do Drones ever get used? By the rules of SR4 they're only effective at getting shot up and wasting your cash (both of which they seem to excel at). Sensor is only 3 on combat drones, and they're usually taking a -3 penalty unless they happen to be shooting a building or the planet we're standing on. The sensor perception rules render them totally ineffective for recon purposes (oh, you're trying to see something smaller than a supertanker, enjoy your 1 dice).

Maybe I'm annoyed because I've pretty much relegated myself to pointlessness without actually realising it. Multiple times over. Ah, well, at least the rules don't put a cap on the number of times you can take the preparatory lock-on action and the bonus should stack.

Riggers: Inventing new cheese to stay the tiniest bit relevant.
I would not call an upgraded drone (let´s call it 25k¥) a pointless platform. It´s more like a cheap samurai. Hardened armor 9, beautiful senseware loadout, substantial firepower if you want...
A related question:
Given the way I understand the rules: What good does the 5 BP "pilot origin" quality do to an AI character?
"Jumping into" a drone instead of remotely controlling it is usefull for a rigger mostly because of the advantages specific ware gives him while being jumped in a drone, all of which are unavailable to an AI.
The dicepools of a remotely controlling AI with command as an inherent program will be higher than those of a jumped in AI.
The way I understand it, the 10 BP quality allows you to use autosofts yourself (although you're still better off loading those on the drone and remotely controlling it, which you can without the quality), while the 5 BP version gives you no actual benefit at all.
Am I missing something?
1. The 10 BP-version of Pilot Origins permits you to use drone autosofts as skills. With Edge.

2. The 5 BP-version permits you to jump into a drone, bypassing the drone pilot, and potentially replacing a rating 4 autosoft + rating 6 pilot (10 dice) with skill 6 (specialisation +2) + Command 6 (+ Edge) (14-20 dice).
Wait, what?
You only use command if you're remotely controlling a drone, not jumping into it, which you can do anyway. The drone pilot only ever comes into play if you just issue an order without being "in" the drone one way or the other.
At least that's how I read the rules.

So, using the quality you'd exchange your "remote control dicepool" of command+autosoft (possibly 18 dice, if command is one of your inherent programs) with the "jumped into dicepool" of skill+agility (most likely replacing agility with response or system or whatever, still a max of about 12 dice).
It is negativly induced, but part of the 5 BP quality is the ability to process rigger data. And remote-controlling a drone via it´s rigger adaption would IMO count for that. So both jumping in and Commanding a drone would require the quality.

If you can indeed use command without the quality, only the 10 BP version of the quality has any worth that I can see.
using command is not the same as rigging, and should need no quality.

that said, i suppose the advantage to jumping in is supposed to be that you don't need the command program... it should be purely based on your matrix attributes.
I disagree Ryu. I think it's a classic case of left hand not knowing what the right hand is writing. I think they had 3 seperate authors doing different portions of the rules in unwired so it leads to a little bit of a disconnect between them IIRC. There's a lot of the SR authors I've seen who I think write great fluff and know the canon system, history, and setting quite well. But they've shown zero rules sense when it comes to actually writing rules, and oftentimes no sense of balance.

There are other qualities which as written are pointless to take in lieu of other options as well. I'd rather not see all AI's gimped in their ability to interact w/ the meat world. Remember command + Mechanic would be used to remote control a repair drone.... so command is one of the more essential programs IMO. And riggers benefit from not having to have it loaded because it's built into their hardware (we all know how fast program slots w/o degradation fill up).

And a meat PC does not need to have a control rig to use the remote control option either. Can you play a FPS like Mechwarrior... good so can I... so should it. The point is getting that extra +2 dice pool from the control rig for a rigger giving him that added edge.

Another problem from another thread was that it's not explicitly said if AI's should or shouldn't get the hot sim bonus. W/o that +2 I think they're gimped in play. You have a meat rigger w/ effectively a +4 (+2 hotsim +2 rig) to anything he does w/ his vehicle. You have hackers out there who similarly get the +2 to pretty much everything they do. At least the AI should be a top flight contendor in it's home environment and should get it IMO. That sort of devolved into 'AI's don't have meat senses' therefor can't benefit from hotsim.

I would errata the 5point quality to add this to it. "The AI gains the benefits of having a Control Rig installed". Also, the AI effectively functions as a pilot program of it's own AI rating for vehicular tests. (since the AI Rating will range from 1-6, average of the 4 mental attributes round up).

The 10point quality effectively gives the drone cheap no rating 'softwires'. Don't have an infiltration skill? We'll load a covops autosoft. The softs are a lot cheaper than the skillwires and none of the drawbacks for things like spending edge. (Rating x 3000 vs. Rating x 200/500).
I may have found the benefit of jumping in. You can roll Response+Skill instead of Command+Skill, and your home node will have Response > Command.
also, don't forget that control device is a complex action. it's a simple action to use active targeting for someone rigging a vehicle. it's complex for a person using control device. and so on and so forth.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 27 2008, 10:51 PM) *
I may have found the benefit of jumping in. You can roll Response+Skill instead of Command+Skill, and your home node will have Response > Command.

Optimisation. Command is a Common program and, therefore, has no availability (so you won't hit the cap from Option modifiers) and is cheap. Command 6, Optimisation 3 doesn't even cost 0.2 BP.

forall r in Rigger, r.Command >= r.Response
Home node response should be 8 (5 + 3 for being the home node), Command is limited to rating 6 (at chargen). Two dice for 5 BP is about what you can expect.
Jaid: you don't have to use a complex action to command a lock. If you manually do the lock you would yes as a complex action. But you have the drone subscribed and connected. You have the option of A. doing it yourself (command) or B. telling the doggy brain to do it for you (simple action issue command).

The bigger problem is that for either command/jumping in, firing is a complex action. So if you're taking the time to lock, you're not taking the time to shoot.

It seems much better to have the agent/pilot program automatically do this for you using it's actions, unless you REALLY need the extra dice the lockon provides. (this test is normally done at -3 dicepool... so 8 goes down to 5... opposed by infiltration roll on the other side. So don't expect a lot out of a drone trying to do this). Here's another case of where that rigger +4 dicepool (hotsim/rig) bonus helps out a lot as it gives the rigger say a ~9dice pool, while the drone itself only has maybe 5'ish.

Ryu: You might make take command an inherent program in the AI itself in which case it's rating could be up to 12, with both the ergonomic & optomized properties for free. That gives a lot of room for growth, even if your home nodes response chip is only 6 soon after chargen.
That is one slot for inherent programs taken, and some hefty karma investment on top of that. A 5 BP quality is IMO a viable alternative, at least if you are going for a cyborg AI. Yes, a Command-based AI would ultimately have more dice, but that is besides the point.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Dec 28 2008, 05:27 AM) *
Jaid: you don't have to use a complex action to command a lock. If you manually do the lock you would yes as a complex action. But you have the drone subscribed and connected. You have the option of A. doing it yourself (command) or B. telling the doggy brain to do it for you (simple action issue command).

i said control device. that is a specific matrix action, and it *does* take a complex action(minimum) and is what you do when you're using the command program. giving orders does not involve the command program either way, whether legitimate (no test) or not (spoof), and as such does not apply to a discussion about remote controlling a vehicle with the command program as compared to rigging said vehicle.

that being said, you have provided a perfect example of what kind of action you might spend in the same turn as you use active targeting; you can order another drone, for example, or take matrix actions, such as observe in detail or transfer data, or they can make another specific sensor check, jump into a drone, etc.

so for example, a regular rigger will jump into the drone and use active targeting on IP 1, and fire on IP 2 with a bonus (and retain that bonus most likely until it is no longer useful). a control device rigger will jump into the drone, not be able to use their second simple action, and then fire on IP 2 with no bonus. and so on.
There's a problem with your last paragraph.

As per errata, your example for the rigger is correct. We'll assume all drones are already subscribed.

For someone who already has Command loaded into his commlink (not all that unlikely given how easy it is to get a ergonomic/optomized rating6 copy and how often it's used). Again, we're assuming the drone in question is already subscribed. If passive targetting is all we need, then we use command right away to shoot in the first IP as we already have the software and the connection in place. There is no need to 'jump into the drone' (last paragraph p220). If an active lock is critical for some reason (say a missile which needs lock for some reason)... then again first IP we use command and manually do the lock in the first IP, in the second IP we then fire.

I'm not saying there's not advantages to rigging. I can see quite a few clear ones. Potentially higher dice pools (for meat riggers at least ,not necessarily AI's because of the way the rules are written). The ability to do things potentially faster once you're actually in place. More available bonus dice when you're splitting dice pools.

The control device types technically aren't riggers they're more like deckers w/ a drone on the side. The only reason this even comes up is because an AI potentially can have a rating 12 command program and doesn't benefit from a control rig.
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