Well... do they?

Peter

Technically yes, but playing it that way makes astral hazing by far the best positive quality to be had for mages and they get points for it to boot, so I'd strongly advise houseruling the haze to be immune to those metamagic tricks.

This is one of those nasty game breaker combos that you have to be really 'iffy about allowing into your game.

It may seem that way at first, but let's have a look.

Say the startup character takes Astral Hazing as a Quality. Up until the character is able to Initiate, he can't do his own magic. Well, his Magic Attribute is reduced by 4, anyway. How is he going to earn his karma to be able to Initiate, with at most a Magic Attribute of 2? What Initiatory group will let him get within a kilometre of their establishment, much less allow him to join? And if he can find one insane enough, how is he going to go through the Initiation ritual?

Even if you could figure out some way the character can Initiate, and get Cleansing, he will continually have to be doing the metamagic to allow himself to be able to do other magic. While he's Cleansed, the Astral Hazing has no effect on other magicians' spells either. So what would be the point?

I don't see how this combination would be a benefit to a character.

Peter

Doesn't cleansing require removing the source of the astral corruption first? I thought there was some fluff indicating that you'd have to clean up the toxic waste or remove the bodies from the crime scene before the astral could be cleansed. In this case, the PC would be the source of the corruption, so the area around the mage couldn't be cleansed until the mage left the area. Am I mis-remembering?

If you are always standing at the hearth of a rating 4 BC - even inside a mana ebb, which is an ambient mana condition - it stands to reason that removing your BC with Cleansing is not possible. Filtering is right out anyway, since encasing yourself in an armor of mana wouldn´t help - The Enemy is within.

That makes no sense either. Otherwise astral space would be so polluted eventually that you may as well ignore magic.

I have thought of house rulling putting a specific cap on astral hazing and how far it can spread.

- J.

In general, Cleansing will 'clear the air', but it will eventually pollute again if the source is not removed.

It's not clear to me how quickly Astral Hazing would regenerate in and of itself were it to be Cleansed.

Peter

ARISE dead thread.. I COMMAND YOU.

I just had this in my group (I am the GM):

We lost a player and went down to three players, so i experimented with allowing two players to enter one character each. (Them playing two - not a fan, but the world is too dangerous to sent them out and they wanted to try something new too)

The player of the (EXTREMELY talented mage entered a technomancer dwarf (EXTREMELY specialized too. After all my reasons and comments to "round that character" fell on deaf ears i just let him enter the game as he was - with the negative quality of Astral Hazing) The Mage had learned Cleansing and thought since it said: Character is like a domain he could clean it up.

I informed him, that i would never allow that because of:

1. The Astral Hazing is too fast and powerful - Filling up the area after one combat turn. (Also NEVER leaving the character himself).
2. I will not allow people to get paid 10 points for having a selective magic-imunity for free (Balancing)
3. He will not be able to cleanse foes with some effect like that too (Cyberzombies or specific magic foes) Since it is NOT in the spirit of that meta magic.

I stated that it was maybe poorly formulated in the book and pointed to the "The GM decides what you can cleanse and what not" in the description.

This player also would have tried to cleanse a whole VALLEY (About 5*3 kilometres) of background count with one application of that magic insisting on "It is ONLY ONE domain! (Lucky for me it was ABSENCE of magic so we didn't have a TWENTY MINUTE discussion about that too.

In this thread i get the feeling most people would agree with my ruling - Active, Living causes of background count are too fast and powerful to be affected by cleansing (The area around them can be cleansed - temporarily). Also some magical threads can actively counter this metamagic when in their lair, making it less effective.

I would like to have a few comments to strengthen my resolve on this, but also letters of hate are welcome *g*. Discuss. Also maybe: Other metamagics ruining the balance (As little as their is)

See ya...

Theoretically I would say that this can clear an Astral Hazer of his/her/it of the astral haze it creates, but it's clearly a temporary solution at best. You are also well within your right to say that the domain generated by an Astral Hazer cannot be cleaned at all, even temporarily.

As the GM, you're also well within your right to forbid a particular quality if you feel it'll unbalance the game. There's also a fair amount of talk about Astral Hazing as well over in this thread, just in case you missed it, with some interesting info you might feel useful to have to help enforce Astral Hazing as a flaw.

Centering can cleanse the effect, but not the source; it can get rid of the aspected background count, but not the Astral Hazing. And it would only work on the background counts they leave behind after two or three hours of being in the area (which is a "natural background count"). Astral Hazing is constantly polluting the area around the character. Polluting. That's an active term. You cleanse it, the character instantly hazes it if they can cleanse it at all. It's not a natural background count by any measure of the term.

As for Filtering, I see no reason why it won't work. Even if it's the mage who has Astral Hazing, they basically have to waste a Complex Action to reduce some of the effect for a whopping (Magic) Combat Turns. The amount reduced is equal to a number of points determined by the number of net hits on a Magic + Counterspelling Test with a threshold equal to (Background Count - Grade). So at grade 2 and assuming Magic 5(1) and Counterspelling 4, that means you might reduce it an average of 0 points (Threshold 2, 1-2 hits average), maybe 1 or 2 if they're really lucky on the roll. And it's only going to last 1 Turn anyway.

What's more, since that character will require a Restricted Gear sustaining focus in order to get Increase Reflexes (and then only at Force 2 at best due to their own polluting effect), that means they'll only get one active Initiative Pass per Combat Turn in which they can do anything useful. And their magic will still be muted to some degree even if they get fantastically lucky on their roll.

No issues to be had here. Well, unless you're using house rules to begin with. Then it becomes a balance issue.

Funk:

Read the text for filtering... it shouldn't work... as the other poster said. The ENEMY IS WITHIN. How do you filter 'outside interference' into your protective cocoon when YOU are the interference. QUOTE: "This advanced form of Cleansing allows an initiate to weave a construct of temporary disruptive energies AROUND HER PERSON using..."

So in one breath you're saying this type of 'cleansing' works... but then you say cleansing won't work.



As far as cleansing goes... I'd probably allow a mage to cleanse. But I'd modify how fast it comes back... it normally takes hours... I'd change that from hours to combat turns (not passes... mage can only cleanse 1 point per pass).

Just to take a 'typical' mage... (IMO: the average mage has say 2 initiations and a magic of say 5... 3 average like other stats only makes sense if you say no magicians anywhere have any initiations).

Cleansing example... he's probably rolling 5(mag)+3(counterspelling)+2(initiate grade)==10 dice.vs. BGC4... Threshhold2... lets say 4 hits... he can only clenase 2 points of BGC... and it takes him 2 complex actions to do this. During which time your typical cyber-zombie probably would have overkilled it three times over. (I have a hard time seeing a CZ not capping a mage in a single pass).

Rationale: while the mage can very temporarily clean the BGC... it only gives him a very narrow window to exploit it... and during this time he's probably going to have far more pressing concerns of survival on his mind. If BGC recovers at 1 point per combat turn (not pass)... it also makes beneficial spells like 'heal' still largely ineffective... but it gives enough opening to drop an offensive spell on the target while it's weakened. Even in a friendly concept.. heal acts too slowly and your mage needs to have both cleansing and heal to be able to magically heal the guy effectively most of the time... (remember heal is touch range... he's in the BGC).

Whoops! Contributing to the necrobump.

The Geomancy metamagic has hilarious implications for an Awakened individual with astral hazing. And its cheaper than cleansing+filtering, to boot.

Filtering could work. Remember all you want is usable mana. It doesn't matter that you are the one with the problem or the environment is the problem. Usually if you create a Filter around yourself, you are trying to Filter away the bad mana around you. This time however Filtering could mean that the shitty mana emanating from you becomes free of the crap that makes it tougher for you to manipulate the mana.

No, I'm saying that Cleansing works to clear the background count someone with astral hazing leaves behind if they stay in an area for more than two-three hours. It won't have any affect on the active hazing they create 24/7.

As for Filtering I see and have no problem with it working. Conceptually, they're literally filtering out the effects of their own aura. I have no problem with that. Mechanically, if the mage wants to waste their first action every turn or or two in order to negate the effect just a little... again, I have no problem with that. See above for how ineffective it really is until you get to (unlikely) initiatory levels. And if you do manage to blow the karma and get to those levels despite the hardships along the way, you've more than paid for the flaw in my opinion. Mostly because you'll have been sucking ass along that long, long journey.


Cleansing only works on natural background counts; see the paragraph regarding the duration of the effect. There's nothing natural about astral hazing. It's an active, turbulent thrashing of astral space. It's like a gushing wound. No matter how many times you clean up around it, the wound will just keep on gushing out all over the place.


Nope. Magic 1, so 6 dice.


That's the theory behind Filtering. Why are you okay with the basic form of metamagic working, but not the advanced one? That's kind of odd even as a house rule.

Funk:
the mage is not necessarily right in the guys face... you can cast spells and such on something from a distance and have the spell reduced. You can dispel things from a distance... you must be astrally percieving and present... not necessarily IN the BGC to cleanse it. (projecting or physically present and perceiving are both valid options).


Rationale:
Simple... IT"S A FRIGGIN DISADVANTAGE. They actually get points for this. They should not be able to exploit it in any way to their advantage. It should work to their disadvantage. While the technique is advanced... it doesn't mean it's compatible.. in their case it may very well just lead to a MORE concentrated BGC directly around them... and since they need to be astrally percieving (forget if so or not)... they create a BGC str 8 and take mental damage ;P. Filtering only works as an advantage to the caster, it provides no means for others to exploit or defend themselves. (it's also instantaneous and far easier to pull off!!! look at the test difficulty, how long it lasts... and realize you can keep redoing the filter every 15 seconds or so to keep it 'clean'.


The reason I'm fine w/ the basic working is because... they'd need to be able to generate 6 hits on that test to cleanse 4point BGC and it would need 4 complex actions... This is probably not practical for most purposes. But it is an option for say an astral mage to do... then have a spirit materialize and nuke him. IE: it can be exploited against the character to create openings for others... or for enemy mages to have a defense against him by weakening. IT"S HIS DISADVANTAGE, NOT THEIRS.

Remember this is a disadvantage... There's no reason this should be any more usefull than having a 10 point wanted disadvantage on you either.


And as far as I'm concerned... we're not arguing house rules here. Even the RAW isn't clear here. The CHARACTER is the source of the background count... yet he'll construct a filter AROUND himself... and surround himself w/ clean mana?! If it's even possible for him to learn it... he probably needs some perverse version which normal initiatory groups wouldn't have. Even the last sentence of cleansing makes it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR it's the GM's prerogative whether the BGC can be cleansed at all. Devil's advocate: If it can't be cleansed, it can't be filtered.

The advanced form only works to his benefit and is SIGNFICANTLY easier to use than the sledgehammer basic metamagic... while the sledgehammer basic form can be used against his disadvantage of ANYONE w/ this negative quality. (even the street sam types who think they're magic immune... or the infamous arcane arrestered ones).

I see what the problem is. You're coming at it as a form of an attack, whereas most of the people in the thread are discussing it as a workaround for a mage with Astral Hazing.

First, as an "attack," Filtering most definitely works. That's its entire point of being; to let you work magic in background counts. It doesn't matter one iota if you're standing in the heart of a background count or simply casting spells into a background count; it works equally well. What's more, you've clearly not read the Filtering metamagic properly if you think it works better or lasts longer than Cleansing does. It takes a high grade initiate with a high Magic rating just to have a shot of getting enough hits; in most circumstances they're only going to lower it by 2 or 3 points if they're extraordinarily lucky. As mentioned before, it's (Magic + Counterspelling) dice with a threshold of (background count - grade), with each net hit over that reducing it by 1 point. Magic 5, Counterspelling 4, Grade 2 = 9 dice, threshold 2, average of 3 successes. That's a reduction of one point of background count. And it will only last (Magic) Turns, not to mention taking a full Complex Action that could be better spent doing something else. Which is the better option by far.

Second, as an "attack," Cleansing is completely ineffective for all the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread, both by design and by intent. If you have the time to sit there and do anything for a full Combat Turn (let alone multiple Turns), you're clearly not fighting the person. Or more correctly, they're not fighting back. So why don't you just pull out your trusty pistol and spend all that time with the Take Aim action, then pull the trigger? Or just pull the trigger, period. It'd be a hell of a lot more effective than sitting around trying to cleanse the area (even if you could, which you can't) just so you can cast your fancy little spell. At best, the only reason to do it is to try to cast a beneficial spell, like Heal. In which case all your ranting about IT'S A DISADVANTAGE, OMG!!! works against you.

That said, go back and read the posts from the point of view that they're being discussed: That of a mage with Astral Hazing trying to get around his own disadvantage.

I would have thought that if anything, an Awakened, any Awakened, with Astral Hazing is suffering the disadvantages of this Negative Qualities overmuch.

For 15 BP you are sucking down -4 Magic. Which at the lowest possible cost is 35 BPs. Even if you do manage to initiate and get these Metamagics, you will be looking at an initial loss of 40BP minimum and a further cost of karma post chargen for the initiation.

No, I'm looking at it from both points of view.


My example maybe wasn't explicit enough... we have the archetypal arcane arrestor street sam. He's smug in that no mage can touch him. Mage tracks him down astrally (he can't do a thing to him)... wipes out his background count temporarily... he may notice feeling wierd if he rolls well on his perception (sort of like how when an astral form goes through a living one). At which point 2 or 3 spirits materialize next to him (maybe not pure surprise... but unexpected) and nuke him.

And even a 1 point reduction can be quite significant!!! Lets look at penalty reductions.
-1 penalty lost magic stat, -1 penalty on a focus, -1 penalty astral visibility. That's 3 dice regained per 1 point of BGC. (at the very least 2. astral visibility & magic stat).

My example assumed what I consider reasonable for an NPC. For actual player characters... you know full well a character like that will max out counterspelling in chargen... it's practically a given... they'll have more like 11 or 12 dice... 5 magic + 6 counter. Unfortunately the BP system encourages this kind of thinking :(. Now if it's important... it's likely that edge will be used as well.


In the case of cleansing... I like it because it can work BOTH FOR AND AGAINST said mage... any mage who has it... yes can temporarily disable his own count, but only w/ extreme difficulty and with a huge investment of time he probably doesn't have. Not all character concepts though are combat mages... maybe he has an ally suppress it for him termporarily, while he does ritual magic, or summons and binds spirits.

And it's not house ruling because the last sentence of cleansing makes it very clear that it's GM's prerogative whether it can be affected at all.

And just because it's advanced doesn't mean it doesn't use the basic technique... cleansing still uses the basic technique just does something more refined with it. It's very easy to make an unfocused bomb-type explosive (see pipe bomb, etc.) like cleansing... it's much harder to make a shaped charge w/ precise tool use purpose (filtering). But if explosives just don't work (final sentence) it doesn't matter if it's a cleansing or filtering.



Totori: This is about the only case I have some sympathy for the character as it is actually a disadvantage of sorts for them. Though at least we have people from catalyst who have came out in the past and said that it can't be aspected to any tradition, as that's a very old idea. The 40 points of magic aren't 'lost' just unavailable for a little while. So they're effectively an oppurtunty cost... not a lost investment. The character still enjoys all the advantages and defenses of the negative quality.

However, the full magic stat is available for casting after some initiations to bring down the cleansing/filtering difficulty.

Even in the case of filtering here... it's a double-edged swords.. as the character is now inside clean mana... he now gets no protection from his own BGC... the spell is cast outside it... enters it... briefly has it's force reduced... then slams into him at full force as it exits the BGC again. (BGC is very explicit.. it temporarily decreases the force but does not reduce hits... force only limits the number of hits you can use at any given time). If you can't tell, I'm very fond of things of a double-edged nature as it limits abuse.

Also their's some wierdness... by strict reading of the rules.. such a mage would be godsend in space!! his BGC can never be higher than 4 and he provides his own magic energy (polluted energy is better than no energy). I've joked in the past... every mage in space should have a quadripeligic cyberzombie strapped to his back.

Personally I think that the quality cost should be a +10 quality bonus for mundanes.

Unless a mundane character needs magic help often it is an actual bonus. As a mundane magic is a THREAT to you most of the time.

Yes magicians can aid you but nine times out of ten the spec ops infiltrator and the street sams manage without magic - give those two nutheads astral hazing and they will most likely be HAPPY about it since it more often than not acts as a magic repellant spirit slaying shield.

Not to mention that it does the following:

Spellcasting VS Character______ Caster Suffer +4 Drain Value
Spellcasting VS Character______ Caster Magic Rating is -4 [Characters Essence in meters]
Spellcasting VS Character______ Base Force is Halved
Spellcasting VS Character______ Critter Spells Force is Halved
Astral Perception & Assensing___ Dicepool -4D6
Astral Hazing_________________Critters loose magical abilities at F0
Astral Hazing_________________Spirits at F4 or less gets disrupted
Astral Hazing_________________Critter Powers Force is at -4
Astral Hazing_________________Watchers always disrupt due to F1

Only drawback for mundanes (cybered or uncybered) is that the 0,2% of the population gets miffed because their mystery mojo gets "disrupted" - yea right, calling themselves powerful mages and then blame the mundane for for fizzling his spells...

How many mundanes with astral hazing would KNOW their precense disrupts magic - or that they have astral hazing? 0,2% there as well perhaps?

A suggested houserule to "ungimp" mages it so limit their maximum magic rating to 2. Instead of a quality that essentially gives them no magic if they have bought less than Magic 5 they cannot raise their magic attribute to more than 2 at chargen.

This means that they only need to spend Quality+10 to max out their magic and can still have points to become more diverse instead of gutting themselves to function with the quality.