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ElFenrir
Finally figured something to do with a shapeshifter idea I had. Went Bear for this fellow. Let me know if it looks pretty good or whatnot, if I missed anything? Workable concept?


[ Spoiler ]


The Stats:

[ Spoiler ]


Yeah, I can still spend some money on him. I kind dig him, I might be able to do some fun things with this character. He doesn't have a lot at the moment, but he seems to have quite a bit of room to grow. I tried to give him the skills that made the most sense for him that he'd learn or know, and his knowledges are stuff he's sort of been soaking up through varied means over the years.
Stahlseele
only one question:
why the fuck take an ELF for a BEAR Shifter? x.x . .
or why the hell take an elf period? <.< . .
okay, yeah, i hate those pointy eared maggots something fierce ._.
but still, the question remains.
is it only to be different?
and how much does he have to eat?
Mass displacement, haven't seen that in quite some time. the energy expenditure must be grievous!
i can't, for the love of me, find a good example of that particular meme right now <.<
Dragnar
The name Kael will always keep a special place in my heart, so I heartily approve of that.

Seems to be a workable HtH-adept build. I personally don't like the way melee has changed with the wierd quality boni instead of making that different martial art skills, but using the system taking every +DV bonus one can get is by far the best choice.
You missed the (+2) on negotiation, although that's just a typo.
From an optimisers point of view, several skills on 2 isn't ideal, as you save more karma the higher your skills start at, but it's not too bad and if it fits the concept go for it.
You only have a single skill at 5, though, which is a waste, so I'd advice finding the points to raise it to 6 or raise another one to 5 as well. You could clip a few points off of perception, as thanks to the hillariously low costs of bonus dice for that skill you'll easily be throwing 10-12 dice without the skill anyway, especially with perceptive. Looks like that would go against the concept, but I'd at least wanted to throw it out.
If you have a commlink (which is good), you should at least have analyze, to have a chance of spotting someone messing with it. Having to switch the link off as a defensive measure isn't ideal, but it beats having all kinds of tracking software loaded on it.

Quite a generic list of adept powers, though. Maybe it's just me, but I like my adepts to have at least one power which lets him do something unique instead of giving him better ratings and dice pools at what he's good at.
ElFenrir
Well, I dig elves, that's the only reason. He actually only gets the low-light vision; the stat bonuses do not carry over. His stats are plain-out Bear shapeshifter stats. This would happen regardless of race. A regular shifter assumes a Human form. So yeah, bears turn to humans; but so to little animals like foxes or eagles. By RAW, you can have a Troll Fox shifter or Eagle shifter, or a dwarf Bear as well. All the Shift(Meta) form does is give the basic abilities of the meta form, but not the stats; so the shifter with Shift; Dwarf would have thermo vision and +2 dice vs. poison and disease, but use the stats of whatever animal he is.

I also forgot to put his physical statistics in and shifter stuff. did that.

EDIT: Ahh, another post in there. biggrin.gif

His Adept powers are quite basic right now-again, it sort of fits him. He really hasn't developed totally enough yet to really start picking the fancier stuff I feel; Smashing Blow was the one I decided to give him that sorta fits the ''heavy hitter'', and is a little different than the damage dealing/soaking stuff. However, I can see him developing some others over time that are off the beaten path.

I actually am considering tinkering with the karma to bring the Unarmed to 6. I figure since he really doesn't have a ton of high skills(yeah, again, the idea behind him), it wouldn't be too out of hand/unfitting.

I'm bad at putting together commlinks, but Analyze? I do have the 3k nuyen left for that. I'm sure his buddy might have taught him a thing or two there.

And yeah, I have a thing with the name as well. grinbig.gif

I did think about dropping down Outdoors to 1. I figure the guy's a bear, he probably knows how to hang in the wilderness somewhat. By shaving off a specialization, I can get the 12 Karma to up his Unarmed to 6, so at least he has the one high skill.
toturi
I have 1 question:

What House Rules are in play?
ElFenrir
No Availability limit at chargen.
All books available, optional rules ok. We're pretty lean when it comes to stuff like that(ie, the optional shift: meta forms, etc.)
There are some houserules for reduced adept power costs, but I don't have any of those powers; so they aren't in play here.
Hmm...that's about it, that I recall. Our other houserules dealt with BP gen, which also isn't in play here.
toturi
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jan 16 2009, 09:20 AM) *
No Availability limit at chargen.
All books available, optional rules ok. We're pretty lean when it comes to stuff like that(ie, the optional shift: meta forms, etc.)
There are some houserules for reduced adept power costs, but I don't have any of those powers; so they aren't in play here.
Hmm...that's about it, that I recall. Our other houserules dealt with BP gen, which also isn't in play here.

OK, (and since I do not have my books to check right now, but IIRC), Shapeshifters do not get to SURGE.
Dragnar
I just realized that I completely missed the char being generated using karma, not BPs. That kills the "save points by taking higher skills" argument, obviously.
Teaches me to comment on the numbers alone without actually verifying the costs myself. Apologies for a mostly useless advice.
The rest still stands, though.

Just for clarification: You got houserules for BP generation, but dropped them completely? Or did other guys in your group generate their chars that way? Because mixing different generation methods in the same group doesn't work too well.

EDIT: And AFAIK the only qualities shifters can't get are those granting resonance (as you can't have magic and resonance simultaniously). There's nothing stopping them from taking the SURGE qualities.
toturi
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Jan 16 2009, 09:40 AM) *
EDIT: And AFAIK the only qualities shifters can't get are those granting resonance (as you can't have magic and resonance simultaniously). There's nothing stopping them from taking the SURGE qualities.

The SURGE sections tell you who can take SURGE qualities. AFAIK, it does not say that Shapeshifters cannot take them, but it only says who can take them.
ElFenrir
We switched over to Karmagen, and we use that pretty much as RAW. When we used to use BP, we had a couple of houserules for them. But we never mixed them.

Yeah, there was nothing saying that they couldn't SURGE. Honestly, the only reason why I even took SURGE was for the negative quality of Mood Hair. I wanted that to be part of his backstory on why he was sorta hunted and decided it wasn't a bad idea to make take the human life for awhile, but he really didn't know too much until his mentor taught him. As for the + qualities, I don't really use them for combat and just tossed a couple on him that I figured might fit his look. If I could have taken Mood Hair without SURGE, I gladly would have.

True enough about the BP skills; under Karmagen it's not so bad to have more skills under the max. I might still tinker with the idea of maxing his Unarmed out, but I don't want to shave points by the skin of my teeth to do so(though -1 specialty, -1 outdoors group isn't too painful.)
Dragnar
I just read the intro to SURGE in runners' companion again and it mentions no restriction whatsoever on who can take those qualities. The Shapeshifter bit does explicitly disallow every quality granting resonance, but allows everything else.
By that token, I see no reason why a shapeshifter shouldn't be allowed to SURGE.
Glyph
When it talks about who can get SURGE pn pg. 73, it mentions "contingent on gamemaster approval, a Non-Metahuman sapient." So shapeshifters can get SURGE if the gamemaster allows it. If I were the gamemaster, I probably wouldn't have a problem at all. Two positive qualities that are only useful for dealing out physical damage, which either killing hands or the bear form's natural weapons do already - so basically flavor. A negative quality that is actually a detriment. I see nothing unbalancing here.
Dragnar
That's what I get for starting to read at "Changeling Qualities"...
You're correct, it does mention it.
You're correct that there's no reason to disallow it in this situation, as well. Still, the GM is the final arbiter.
ElFenrir
Yah, I mean, if for some reason the GM changed their mind, I wouldn't cry about it, i'd just have to tweak the backstory to something a bit different.

Vulnerability was interesting. I believe they were adding this into an errata for it's definition; I recall reading something about if you're injured with the thing you are vulnerable to, you must heal naturally from it-as in, like anyone else would heal from their wounds, rather than regenerating from it. I assume magic damage must be healed normally as well(manabolt, powerball). How do the elemental spells work, however? Healed from normally(without regeneration)? Treated as their natural element, and thus regeneratable? (I know that Slay Bear/Slaughter Bear Shapeshifter type spells work on him, but not One Less Human/Elf/etc.)

I had toyed with the option of Hunted, since quite a few folks were interested in the Amazing Color-Shifting Bear-from poachers to mages to probably scientists who wanted to see wtf was with him, to the Jim Rose Cybercircus, but I always saw hunted as sometimes a detriment to the whole party, and wanted to avoid that. (As in, sometimes the party ends up involved in the player's attempted capture or whatnot-I've seen it happen before.)

I'm in the process of figuring out who to play for an upcoming game with my old group. I have a few concepts worked out, and they all have their merits. They all have some things in common(I know what ''role'' I want to play, in other words-strong hand-to-hand, other things mixed in). This guy does have a fair smattering of other skills, but probably has the most room to grow; he could be a source of gentle humor at some points(we run the gamut of emotions in our game), with the whole fish-out-of water thing, and seems, looking at the ideas I scratched out, that he might have the best overall role-playing potential due to his background. Not saying that a character has to be overly weird or different to be good role-playing material(sometimes simplicity rocks), but in this case, I feel he might. Even with the regeneration, he's not the most ''powerful'' of the options I have(he's great at what he does but he lacks some of the raw variety of the other characters), but he almost seems like he might be the most fun.

As for other tweaks, I'm also wondering about his Astral Combat, which, since he's dual-natured and not a caster, he might want more of, just in case. (I have a feeling I'll be initiating and getting masking very fast.) Killing Hands will come in handy here, able to work against the astral-type beings. Right now he throws 8 dice(Willpower+Unarmed Astral Combat) against them, but he does use his physical attributes, and he can't totally astrally project. (according to 184 in the core book, the mental attributes aren't used for combat until you totally project.)
JFixer
The way regeneration is set up, if he has been wounded with Silver, those boxes are marked with X, instead of /, because they can't be healed by regeneration. If he takes damage from combat spells they are marked with X, because they can't be healed by regeneration. Anything else, including a lethal wound (the one that goes further than -body past the chart) can be healed at the first action of the next round. They get one try. If their track heals back up past the lethal portion they survive to heal another round, and may even go from dead to conscious in one go. It's pretty powerful as long as you take the magicians out of the fight /first/. His regeneration roll is 14 (Body 9 + Magic 5) and is rolled before his first action each combat round. Magical shifters regen FAST.

Also, generally speaking, any 'shot' taken with silver should require at the very least a complex action to dig the silver back out of the wounds, because while in contact with silver, he doesn't regen at all.

Silver = Bad
ElFenrir
Oh yes. I know about that; the team does luckily have someone with first aid. I picked up Mystic Armor for him for a couple of reasons-one, he's dual-natured. I'd like a little extra protection there. Two, it helps his defenses. In another thread discussing Regeneration/Allergies it turns out that the silver(or whatever the character is allergic too), actually has to do physical damage. A silver sword that gets turned to Stun, thus not penetrating, was told in another thread that it would not kick the allergy in, since the allergen must touch the skin. Likewise, touching his armored jacket with a silver bar would not hurt him, but if he grabbed it with a bare hand, it'd hurt quite a bit. Dunno if they errata'd this or not, but that was last I read on it. [The only thing I'm confused of is when the +4 to Power is added in. Like if a Strength 2 human tries to poke past his 12 or whatever Impact armor with a knife, and only gets 1 net success, the power of the knife is only 3P, and thus automatically Stun damage. But is the power 7P even before it hits him, or does that only come into play when dealing with things that actually cut into him? like, if the human took a silver sword and hit him unarmored, I imagine then the +4 to Power would come into play.]

I also recall reading something of being able to regenerate from Elemental Manipulation spells, since those aren't mana based, but I'm not sure there. I know Armor helps against them as well as the elemental protections you can get on armor; but I'm not *positive* if these are under regen or not. I knew mana/powerball type spells must be healed normally.

Finally, I do know that Alleviate Allergy DOES help cut down the allergy affect while it's sustained(IE, if he managed to get the allergy to Mild, it wouldn't do extra damage), BUT; the Vulnerability is still there and he still cannot regenerate from those wounds caused by the silver, and has to have them healed normally. Though Alleviate Allergy to anyone with an allergy like this isn't a bad spell to have cast on them; getting rid of that +4 to the Power isn't bad at all.

I actually considered tinkering with the Mystic Adept idea like his mentor; making his magic 6(3/3) and running with that, though I'd have to dig a few other karma around to pick up magical skills. I think I like the pure adept idea more, though I just sorta have an attraction to spellcasters as well. I'm 80%/20% leaving him as is, but the option IS still sort of kicking around in my mind. I wanted him to stay a strong, solid fighter/team muscle, since the team really doesn't have a specialized one right now-there's one pretty solid ork, but he's more of a lightly-cybered gunslinger specialist with some sword on the side. The team MIGHT be getting a mage, but I'm not sure.

3/3 adept/magic wouldn't cut down his fighting really much at all(I'd leave his stats the same except for magic 6. I can't really max his mental stats more except for Charisma, since they're one under the max and his Agility is already max at 4; I didn't want to take it lower.) Mystic Adepts can be a real tough one sometimes, but I HAVE seen them work.

ElFenrir
Okay, so I did a second draft, trying the Mystic Adept method. I know with an MA, it seems like you want to lean a little more to one side than the other. His spells are more subtle. I toyed with his skills a bit, as you can see in the second draft. His Attributes stayed the same, but his magic is now 6. I also evened out his +/- Qualities: extravagant eyes(would adjust the physical description-it would be the only thing that changed-and we do allow extra +/- SURGE qualities if you have Surge, but they must come from your normal points and cannot go over your allowed +/-, of course), and a Phobia, which I'm trying to figure out(we use them for regular characters, not just cyberzombies, and always have since SR2's Companion. We don't know WHY they made them cyberzombie only in SR4.) This variant is a little more on the min-maxy side.

Mystic Adepts I'm still mixed on. Now, according to SR4, the way magic is divided affects how many power points one gets(physical), and the dice that can be allocated to magic skills(magic). However, it says that for ALL other intents and purposes, magic is treated as it's full Force, in terms of how many levels of Adept powers can be gotten, or the max Force a spell can be cast at. So...why is this so bad? I mean, so the Mystic Adept with 3/3 Magic/Adept and a spellcasting of 3 only rolls 6 dice to cast, but he can still cast a force 6 spell...by the look of things, without overcasting. His Drain attributes are unaffected(Will+X). Theoretically, a Mystic Adept with 3/3 and a 5+2 spellcasting can throw 10 dice to cast with. I AM having trouble seeing the problem, unless something was put in the errata or somewhere about the Force.

In his case, he's 4/2 with a leaning toward Adept, but he can still throw 6 dice to counter combat spells, and 5 dice to cast spells, and since he doesn't cast combat spells anyway, it's more of a useful tool for him/the party.

Anyhow, here's the update:

[ Spoiler ]



Reasons for skill tweaks:

Pistols is 1 lower, since he's not a huge fan, but does see the merit, as said. His thrown knifes with his high Strength seem to be able to do a little better range-wise until the long/extreme ranges, when the pistol edges is out. Knife damage is likewise more than the HP, at 7P per knife. Knives are quiet and subtle as well; but being able to pump some gel rounds at range is a good thing.

Negotation dropped by 1; I see him as good at the sensing motive, but he's not so good at the nuances of actual negotiating. I wish they had a sort of skill for the Motive Sense sort of thing.

Outdoors Group dropped-he's a bear. I figure living his life as one he knows how to care for himself in the wild. He doesn¨t really need to go camping. wink.gif If I were GMing(and in our group we have similar PoVs), I'd assume a shapeshifter kind of knows how to hunt/etc.

Perception dropped one/specialized: Kinda min-maxed here, I admit. Keen scent and the specialization, and he's still plenty keen with his eyes and ears.

Intimidation dropped one: 8 dice is still good to intimidate, and his intimidation is more...natural, I guess? He doesn't know subtle threats and such as much as he does just showing he's bigger, stronger, and meaner than the other guy, if he needs to be.

I like them like this. I dropped 2 points of Critical Strike(11P is still awesome damage, and kick attack gives him +1 reach, so I don't think his role as ''team muscle'' is sacrificed at all by dropping 2 DV. He still hurts like hell. Dropped Combat Sense, maybe will pick it up later. 4 Reaction/3Athletics aren't bad to dodge, especially given his big armor and Body bonuses. His Agility, while nice, is less than impressive compared to a sam so I wanted to keep him with the extra unarmed dice at least.

So, thoughts on this version? Better flavor, spread too thin?

I think I still kept the basic idea down of the physical powerhouse/tank/heavy hitter of the party, but managed to give him some other things, like some of the detection and lifegiving spells that I think maybe he might have learned from his mentor. With the addition of a few of the health spells, he's sort of a 'party guardian' of other sorts. He's not a particularly overprotective person, and is more sometimes skittish around too many, but I can sort of see him with a bit of the ''papa bear' instinct if he were to grow close to certain party members. The spells can be a nice little compliment to his great physical abilities. He wouldn't be taking over 'team mage' by any stretch of the mind, since the apparent mage we might get is more or less combat-oriented. (I'd tweak the background a bit for him to work this in, won't be a problem, if I decide on this, just have to add he was taught some minor magic abilities.) I tried to pick spells that fit his theme-Analyze Device is great for his curious side of wondering how stuff works, and Preserve works nicely for his plant collection in his house.
Stahlseele
still just an elf . . but the overall built looks good to me nonetheless . .
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