Hello


what means it ?

Is it the natural attribute maximum for the metatype ?

Or

Is it the actual attribut of the character before to get the cyberlimb ?

Thanks for your future answer.

Is it the natural attribute maximum for the metatype ?

thats it

Hough!
Medicineman

So a character with BOD 3, STR 3 AGI 3 can obtain a customized cyberlimb with BOD 6, STR 6, AGI 6 ?

^^ Yep.

yeah, i was kinda suprised about that too. i expected them to say that you can (without using up space) get a limb that is your metahuman average but not up to the maximum. i guess if you got a maxed out single limb for your wimpy decker, you'd end up looking like marilyn manson with a hulk hogan arm... not very concealable!

Correct, unless the character is not human. An elf for example could get BOD 6 AGI 7 STR 6.
I'm not sure if the exceptional attribute quality enables a higher maximum in the limbs.

Eh, some of the Shadowrun art shows cyberlimbs that look like big honking mechanical robot arms off an automobile assembly line.

Some people aren't aiming for concealability.



-karma

Actually, I run it so that limbs are always roughly the same size of the body; the only thing that really starts to make them explode is bulk modifications, or strange things. So Marilyn Manson with a 6/6/6(heh) cyberleg would still look like the rest of his body. If ''Marilyn'' got a crapload of mods and Bulk Mod 4, he'd look like...erm...a skinny dude with a bigass leg.

don't forget to factor in the simple fact, that for tests where the whole body is used the attributes are averaged . .

i suspect its a rule that makes the most sense with full borgs

no, not really . . head and probably torso are pretty sure to be weaker, thus weakening the whole thing . .

Torso and Skull can be customized in the same way as the other parts. They lack the capacity to be enhanced like the other limbs. So you probably are stuck with 8 in BOD AGI and STR for a human fullbody replacement due to rounding.

It's always seemed to me that the main limiting factor is the torso itself, and the stresses it can handle. So, I've been considering a houserule that allows you to increase your "natural" physical attributes by +1 for each better grade of cybertorso ware, but applicable only if you go with full body replacement. I.e. +1 for Alpha, +2 Beta, and +3 Delta. I don't know that I'll ever allow it due to qualms about unbalancing the game, but, it makes sense in my mind.

We haven't had any problems allowing fully-juiced limbs for any race in SR. I have an elf with a pair of 16-strength cyberlegs(though Agility is 8 to match the rest of the body, and I think I kept body 9 on the legs.) IMO, the problem would more than likely stem from Agility. Strength? Bah, they can lift things and hit harder(mind you, someone with a strength 16 pair of cyberarms punching does 8 base; someone with strength 9 and Rating 4 Bone Density Augmentation does the exact same thing for less essence. Since you can't lace limbs, the only bonus damage is coming from, say, martial arts bonuses, capped at +3, making both options equal for sheer damage.) Agility, and to a lesser extent, Body, are the stats that you'd have to ''watch out for'' if you upped/got rid of the augmented maxes.

I wouldn't use this houserule with a table of known ubertwinks, but at our table where we live by the ''don't be a goober'' rule, it works fine. (I've played with the houserule of ''if you pay for it, you can up the stat however much'' since SR2, when we were introduced to the game-our first GM played that way, so in my head, it's practically our own RAW.)

I actually was trying to think of a version of this houserule that could be more widespread. I'd keep the current limits on limbs(up to 6 points of custom limbs, for 9 base, and up to +7 for the other stats), but have it so that every point you went beyond the augmented max cost more(and also, make the Agility mods significantly more expensive.) This way, Trolls/Orks don't lose out on the body/strength mods(they basically pay regular price all the way up), allows someone to make a human with a strongass arm(since Humans and Orks are roughly the same size, and indeed some humans are the same size and build of orks, it makes no sense that a human can't use an ork limb), but you do pay a lot more for the benefit. I'll get the whole thing down on paper in the next few days how I could picture it working.

Thanks, ElFenrir, I needed another opinion on that, I was afraid I'd get to twinkish. You think to do that that you should have to buy the attribute enhancements for the cybertorso as well? Otherwise it crumples like an empty beer can?

I would say, if it goes past the maxes. If someone just wants a custom limb of 6, I'd say fine without the torso. (For a human). If they wanted a custom limb of 9(before the extra augments that take capacity), then I'd say they need a torso.

The way the rule is kicking around in my head(to maybe be more of a houserule to offer folks who don't just want to cut it out completely. Our table's rule has a measure of trust involved, like I said ) includes:

-To go above your racial maxes, you need the Torso as well(for any stat), and have it upgraded as well.
-Costs for augmenting are:
Custom Body: Book Price to Normal, variant depending on stats past that, up to +6. Body past the max costs 3,500 per point. Strenght is 2,500 per point. Agility is 4,500 per point. So a Human who wanted his arm to be 9/9/9 custom(before the augments), would pay 4,500 each for Body/Agility/Strength to 6, and then 10,500 for Body 9, 13,500 for Agility 9, and 7,500 for Strength 9. (Keep in mind the torso must be done the same way.) A troll who wanted an Agility 6 Arm would pay 3,000 for Agility 5, and an additional 4,500 for Agility 6. [I'd make a chart probably with all of the races and their regular maxes and the prices for easy reference.]
-Augmenting the limb via the Body/Strength/Agility bonuses stay like the book; up to +7, so no limb can go above 16, for any race. (I find these rules let people go nuts anyway, don't need to go any higher.) This costs normal if the limb is under the augmented max. So a human could have a custom Body 6 limb and add +3 with no problems. However, his Body 9 arm, he'll pay 3x book price for each point over. (Capacity stays the same.).
-Tooling around with having a limb's base cost with this method double the price; you need to get a ''special'' limb made for this.

Again, I'll get the whole thing up in the next short future.

ElFenrir
Well, your price multipliers are slightly harsher than I was thinking, but not much. Thanks for helping me flesh this out. I'm gonna print this for further pondering.

I did some weighing, and agility is just *that* good of a stat. See, I was coming from the angle of the gunslingers. If it had been too much cheaper, a gunslinger could just jack Agility through the roof, as they could just get a normal, solid ''6'' rating in Strength and Body and be just fine(maybe even get +1 Strength for some recoil, which is within the normal range.) On the other hand, a melee person might want to be lookng at all 3 stats-agility for attacks, Strength for damage(remember they can't get bone lacing damage, so they actually need the stat a BIT more, though it doesn't have to be through the roof), and Body since they're up in close. They're more likely to want to balance them more. But many characters could just benefit so much from just pumping Agility(stealth/covert ops as well, for example), I had to make that one the biggie, so to speak.

If you ignore the need for stat upgrades in Torso and skull replacements, it makes sense to up your human to 9. So that's what I do

Really, the skull shouldn't enter into averaging equations anyway. I rationalize, in a kind of extended logic, that the torso is more a shell meant to hold the abilitys of the limbs together. There just isn't enough room in there otherwise.

Oh, we never averaged the skull. Torso, yes, but not the skull. That's just...there.

Oddly enough, my houserules don't require a torso if you get Custom Limbs 6, and them +3 to all the stats on a human. But when you start customizing the limb to levels beyond your race...that's when the torso is needed. My only explanation for that one is ''some attempt to balance the superpowering houserules.''

where's the Dr. part in those rules? O.o
Racial-Limit +3 without torso, is, as far as i understood at least, perfectly valid reading of RAW o.O
back in SR3, when limbs cost you an arm and a leg(get it?) we houseruled that all limbs come with attributes that match the rest of the body, no matter what you have done to the attributes allready . . and then you could build in strength and quickness upgrades, if you wanted to, so a troll with STR15(18)[from suprathoid gland and 4 levels of muscle aug+3levels of strength increase for his str15 arms] was entirely possible . . yes, it's pretty sick in some regards, especially if you go for more str upgrades, then factor in dikote for close combat and ranger x-bows for ranged . .

I have never seen any stats for Dikote... Would anyone mind enlightening me? Sounds kinda like when I spray Teflon on my knives.

dikote no longer exist in SR4.

Dikote in SR3 gave on blades a +1 in power-niveau and a +1 in damage level . . a usual sword would do strength+3m damage. meaning my troll with STR18 would have done 21M Damage . . so the guy i hit with it would have to resist 21-his impact armor with his body stat . . and even if you got to 10 impact armor(close to impossible really), you would still have to roll at least four times an eleven with your puny body dice . . now with dikote, the same troll would deal 22S damage, meaning you would have to roll 6 times a twelve with your body dice to get away without ANY Damage at all . . and if i had rolled two successes in my attack and the other guy would not have completely dodged, i would have basically split him in two with the 22 deadly physical damage . .
light damage=1 box of damage,
medium damage=3 boxes of damage,
serious damage =6 boxes of damage,
deadly damage = 10 boxes of damage.
and the physical condition monitor is only 10 boxes long, so it's completely filled.
you are now straight into overflow and even if you did not die from the blow, you're bleeding out in a matter of seconds/combat rounds again determined with your body stat
it gets even worse when you start out with a pole-arm. base damage-code is str+3 serious, so you would end up with str+4 deadly damage . . even a human can slice trolls and cars in two with that kind of damage potential, if he is good . . especially since dikote halves barrier rating, when attacking a barrier . . i guess you can see now, why it's not in Sr4 anymore? *snickers*

Yep... I'll stick with Teflon.

but dikote actually helped *snickers*
oh, and scientists can make dikote from tequilla nowadays in real life too O.o
the teflon approach might have worked in another game, where some ind of slip spray actually made you take less damage from any attacks, even bullets and swords, because they would just glance off of you ^^