You suppose a person building a cyberdeck (and using B/R skills) gets the modifiers of that chart? Ie: If I have a 9 Intelligence (5-Intelligence) and am building in my own shop (-1 for Superior conditions) that would be a nice -5 to my B/R TNs... Admittedly, it could be questionable if that 5-9 should give me a bonus... but an interesting quandry, nonetheless. I think I'm going to rule a 'no go' on that, but am interested in hearing what others think of his question.

Sphynx

It's rather excessive to say no. I mean, it's not the Superior Conditions bonus, but the Intelligence bonus that bugs you, I'm guessing...but if someone has pumped that much karma in Intelligence, then I think they should reap the benefits. I mean, seriously, with an Intelligence of 9, they should be designing a whole new line of technology making cyberware obsolete! An Intelligence of 9 is pretty goddamn rare, even if you do play with 400+ karma characters, right?

Technically, you could do it-but really, I'd say the design rules in Matrix overrule the SR3 main regarding cyberterminal construction.

I was referring to the Superior conditions, actually. I think the better tool rules in Matrix should apply over those.

The anti-target number increase for superior intelligence and no reference material? <shrug> Leave it up to the GM.

Ok, I'm an idiot --> where in SR3 does it mention intelligence bonuses?

-Siege

It doesn't.

THe point is that on page 95 of the SR3 main, there is a list of Target Number modifiers for B/R skills.

One modifier says that if you have reference material on hand, you have a 0 TN modifier (meaning, you can look up how to do it).

The next one says that if the character is working form memory (i.e. without reference material) then a positive modifier is applied ot the target number (i.e. making the task harder) equal to 5 minus your character's Intelligence score.

Sphynx was wondering, what if you have an Intelligence higher than five? Then you'd get a negative modifier to the Target Number, making the task easier.

I would say that you wouldn't get the bonus merely because of the fact that an intelligence 9 person would then perform the task appreciably less effectively with full instructions on hand.
I do not, however, have anything other than common sense to back that up, and we all know how far that goes in some parts of Shadowrun

~J

I see no problem with the bonus outperforming reference material. Unusually intelligence characters (Intelligence 6+) not only are assumed to know the ins and outs of their craft, but they know it so well that they're quite innovative and creative, able to put different theories and concepts into practice. Reference materials are nice if you don't really know what you're doing, but they're not the end-all be-all guides to doing things. If they were, there would never be any innovation, and even an Intelligence 1 character would be just as efficient as an Intelligence 9 character.

Ahhh, so ka.

In which case I'd say no -- if having the blueprints and reference materials gives you a 0 modifier and not a bonus, I can't really justify having a super-intellect as being particularly beneficial either.

Continuing my tirade against the seperation of stat and skill...

-Siege

But Snake Oil, they should be able to innovate better if they don't have to keep track of all the piddly details in their heads. I would imagine that someone writing a chess program would churn out a perfectly good chess program with intelligence of 9 and nothing else, but with instructions on how to write a basic chess program they would do it ever so much faster, or with more features in the same amount of time.

~J

According to SR mechanic, the benefit of having an Intelligence of 9 is the reduced karma cost to raise related skills like programming.

So while having an Intelligence of 9 offers no direct benefit, you receive the indirect benefit of having the potential for much higher skills.

Please note, I disagree entirely and completely with that line of thinking but it is canon.

-Siege

You make it sound like they have to sit there and constantly pull up mental blueprints and schematics. By the Intelligence 6+ point, they know the source material so well that it's virtually instinctual. "This does that, that does this, and this will do that if I connect it to this," isn't even part of the thought process, they just know it. Having to stop and look every little detail up would most likely slow them down if nothing else. Since successes pretty much only relate to time (failures meaning you lost half of the base time), then that's effectively the benefit they're getting for having a high Intelligence score.

Personally I think this particular bonus should be related to their actual Skill, but I don't really have a problem with it coming from Intelligence, either. The more often attributes interact with skills, the better as far as I'm concerned. Characters with identical skill levels should get some kind of benefit out of having a superior attribute, and this is one of the few times in the game that it occurs.

So what would the Photograghic Memory Edge do in this set up?

Or Photographic Memory and superior intelligence? Anything?

Not really -- if the character had photographic memory, I'd give him/her the 0 TN bonus as if they had the reference manuals on hand provided the character had time to peruse the materials at some point prior.

Of course, with the advent of chips and imagelinks, any techie could have libraries of specs, blueprints and reference materials on hand. Never mind knowledge chips in their own right.

-Siege

I'd treat it like a Mnemonic Enhancer 3 and grant +3 dice to the test, but not a lower TN regardless of Intelligence (giving a chance for a speedier job as you don't have to stop and flip through a myriad number of books to reference everything, but no guarantees), but this is obviously a house rule. Remembering every single detail is useful but different than Intelligence's primary function. Creative and intuitive thinking is more what the Intelligence bonus is about, and the more you know and remember about the source material, the easier it is to put it all together in your mind. Remembering every page number of every schematic in every reference book won't make you more creative in and of itself.

And if someone's building, say, a birdhouse? Both have Carpentry B/R 3 but one has an Intelligence of 1 and the other an Intelligence of 9. Who would you put your money on for building it faster, more artistically, and/or without having to stop to reference The Idiot's Guide to Birdhouse Construction every step of the way? Even if they had identical Intelligence scores, the one who had to stop to reference the book would do so much slower with no guarantees at doing a better job than the one who didn't (assuming they both had spectacular memories and were incredibly bright to begin with).

How about a blacksmith? Do you think master weaponsmiths in medieval Japan stopped to reference their books every five minutes while forging their katanas? Or that those who did so created better weapons more quickly and efficiently than those who didn't?

My money's always going to go on the more intelligent character, especially the ones bordering on the supragenius level. Reference materials are nice if you're really doing something involved or difficult and you don't know every little detail about what you're doing, but when you do know every little detail about what you're doing (ie, Intelligence 6+), you're going to be faster and more efficient than the guy who's stopping to double-check to make sure he's right every step of the way.

And the point is, the character with an Intelligence of 6 or higher doesn't need to reference the material at all. While those with a lower Intelligence will need to reference it from time to time. Good job at ignoring everything else I wrote, too.

In any case, an Intelligence of 5 is fantastic and well above the norm. 3 is your average person. 4 is your above average person. 5 is someone who'd easily score as a genius on an I.Q. test. 6 and above are the outliers. I seriously doubt if anyone on these boards would have an Intelligence score of 6 or higher despite personal beliefs otherwise.

Building stuff isn't based directly on Intelligence. It's based on the skill. If you have a genius with Int-9 and skill-2, he'll still do a less impressive job than a less-intelligent person (Int-5) with more experience in the matter (skill-6).

There's no way I'd allow someone to have a better-than-using-the-book modifier if I was GM'ing. I know a ton of highly intelligent SR rules lawyers, and they still get stuff wrong that is easily correctable if one has the rulebook in hand.

The genius with little skill will still do worse than an idiot-savant or mentally handicapped person who has worked at a trade their entire life (Intelligence 2 or 1, skill 6 or higher), never mind Intelligence 5.

~J

Right, because they can score more successes with a higher skill rating. A character with an Intelligence of 9 and Skill of 1 is locked in at only one possible success while a character with Intelligence 1 and Skill 9 can get as many as nine successes. Even if the latter was having to stop to reference books and blueprints, he'd still outperform the former. Just like I'd expect a character with an Intelligence of 9 and a Skill of 3 who doesn't need to reference the material to outperform the character with an Intelligence of 1 and a Skill of 3 who did, and even that only occurs with characters with an obscenely high Intelligence score of 6 or higher. The rules reflect both cases wonderfully.

Polar Opposites: Base Target Number 4 (Base Time: 28 Days): Intelligence 6, Skill 1 in average conditions will have a TN of 3 and a good shot of scoring that one success, letting him finish the project in 28 days, though his chance of failure is still pretty high. Intelligence 1, Skill 6 in average conditions with reference materials will have a TN of 4 and will average at least three successes, letting him finish the project in 9 days.

Polar Opposites in Intellect Only: Base Target Number 4 (Base Time: 28 Days): Intelligence 6, Skill 6 in average conditions will have a TN of 3 and he'll get at least three successes which lets him finish in 9 days with only a mildly better shot at finishing it in 7 days instead with an extra success. Intelligence 1, Skill 6 in average conditions with reference material will have a TN of 4 and he'll get at least three successes, letting him finish in 9 days.

Where's the major problem? Both of those seem completely reasonable and logical to me. In the first example, skill and training clearly outperforms what you can remember and creatively innovate while working on the project, while in the latter intelligence proves to have a slight edge over constantly needing to reference the materials.

No, he suffers neither a penalty nor a bonus for having the reference materials available.

No, he or she suffers from the loss of their -4 bonus.

~J

I may have reference material available but I'll still have to work from memory, since I have to remember what the reference material said after I have referenced it. So the TN is modified by TN + 0 (references) + (5 - Intellect). You are assuming that having both References and Working from memory are incompatible. I disagree.

I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

It seems clear to me that the designer's intent was that the (5 - Int) modifier only be applied if int is 5 or less and no reference materials are available. The fact that the book specifically refers to (5 - Int) as a postive modifier speaks clearly to the spirit of the rules.

In short, quit being silly.