a player asked me this question, and honestly, this seems to be a very gray question, rules wise
could he put smartgun system on a drone?

going by arsenal, I don't see any problem except maybe range. smartlink seems to work only within a few feet of the person (read the info on smartguns, pg 152 - 153).

I just don't see how a rigger, say half-mile away, can use a smartlink weapon. only jumped in ..maybe


any thoughts and comments welcomed

i have no idea what section of arsenal you were trying to refer to, because the only section on smartguns on p. 152-153 refers to the core book... but yes you can install a smartgun into a drone. not only can a rigger benefit from it (at any range so long as he can reach the drone of course), but the drone pilot can also benefit from it (unless your GM... or in this case, you being the GM, you... houserules otherwise).

Hey, Pete.

I disagree with the drone pilot being able to benefit from a smartgun system. How is a semi-autonomous dogbrain program, essentially just lines of code, going to benefit from the feedback from the system? It's meant for a metahuman brain, not software. It's sorta the same reason AI programs can't "jump in" (unless they have that Pilot origin quality.) Unless it's a line I missed in the rules somewhere, I'd have to say that smartgun systems only benefit the rigger if he's remotely controlling the drone or vehicle, or if he's fully jumped in. If the drone is acting on its own, I'd say the smartgun system doesn't add its bonus.

I don't think so. A smartgun works for just about everyone without the need to "jump in" to it. You don't even need simsense for it, you just need AR. In SR4, a smartgun is basically just a fancy guncam setup. There's no reason why a drone wouldn't be able to benefit from it; it benefits from the other sensors, so why not?

But where would you put in the drone's contact lenses?

I have always figured the drones sensors and autosoft software was pretty much a smartlink already. So no, I don't let drone get smartlinks, it's redundant.

As long as you then give all drones the +2 dice as well...
A smartlink is mostly a specialised ballistics software precalculating bullet paths to generate the best possible aimpoint. If that aimpoint is then fed to a human user via colored crosshair in their sights or as target coordinates to a drone shouldn't make any difference.

drones can have cameras (most will have cameras, in fact). cameras can receive vision mods. smartgun link is a vision mod.

I guess further explaination for my opinion is available on pg. 162 SR4, active targeting. Essentially, drones can as a free action lock onto a target, similar in my mind to what smartlinks do, and get way more than +2 from this. In my mind this represents the targeting computers superior ability to process targeting info over a smartlink, making a smartlink useless.

active targetting is a simple action, iirc. which means you can't target and shoot in the same turn (gunnery is a complex action).

now, if you're saying you allow active targeting as a free action, on the other hand, that does change things...

I don't think this is a vision mod. It's just ballistic calcs displayed for the user.

Now, I want to know, since a Technomancer can make a complex form program that can act as a smart link and it's only a rating 1 form, can a Hacker make a program to do the same thing with a commlink program?

The reason I asked the above is the TM is using a complex form and not a sprite.

so what exactly do you think the targeting autosoft is doing? what kind of info is that generating? and how does it compair to piloting, sensors, and smartlink as to what happens where when a drone fires a gun?

edit: also, smart link is a vision enhancement for the smart gun system, i think all the calculations are done in the smart gun software and sent as visual information to the smart link

And why couldn't a commlink run that same program? It can send the data to an Image Link and the user can get the information that way.

Traditionally, I have not given the Smartlink bonus to the drone's Pilot program, but it looks to be one of those "up in the air" questions.

I think your comlink could run a "smart gun" program It just needs a laser range finder and a camera

wow!!
thanx for the response
didn't expect I had the 25,000 nuyen question

in arsenal, the smartgun is in the weapons mod section which is why i quoted those pages
never considered a Pilot program using the smartlink, hmmm

looking in arsenal, pg 105, i think i found my answer....

under vehicle sensors
seems all vehicles, and to a certain extant drones, have a sensor package depending on size
which includes a camera that can be modified with vision enhancments, pages 323- 324 are noted

so my thinking is that a drone, with a smartgun system, may gain the +2 dice
if a rigger, or techno, has smartlink (either cyberware or vision enhancment), may also gain the +2 dice when jumped in the drone

this maybe a can of devil rats, ..but thoughts?!?!

I think it's mostly up to the individual decision really. Even though I am against it, and have stated my reasons, there really is nowhere that says you can't.

Keep in mind that a smartlink is more than just a software generated reticle on a display. The weapon mod on a smartgun is akin to a wii-mote, a motion sensor and a camera in line with the barrel. This means the drone has information on exactly where the gun is pointing. Furthermore, the smartlink camera add-on can use the parallax between the weapon sensor's and the drone's primary vision camera to provide range information that correlates with the range finder. Depending on the accuracy of the primary vision camera, the smartgun system may be able to track the bullet's wake and determine the influence of wind or atmospheric conditions.

Those kind of bonuses seem like they'd apply regardless of the user being a person or drone.

I would personally even venture to say a rigger could benefit from the smartgun system while remotely controlling the drone, via his Command program. If the smartgun system is indeed calculating bullet paths and factoring in conditions like temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, etc... then I'd say the +2 applies there, too. I'm still extremely sketchy on autonomous drone pilots getting the bonus, but I do see the argument for that point of view.

I think of the smartlink as being "better" than the regular drone software. You can stuff better sensors in them, so IMHO a smartlink is as an upgrade in the same vein.
Mostly though, drones already have way worse dicepools than human shooters and I wouldn't want the gap to widen even more.

Squinky is right, though, it is neither explicitly allowed nor disallowed, so it's down to which line of reasoning appeals more to you.

If the gun is a smartgun then it already has the hardware you mentioned.

This would eliminate the need for the smartgun eye mod. It kinda makes sense as well. Most people who would get the eye mod would just want the smartlink and not anything else.

Basically what Kitsune said.

What everyone is talking about is not replacing the gun modification with a program, but replacing the vision modification with a program. Instead of having to have a specific visual enhancement to use your Smartgun, you can rely on your standard Image Link, with the program feeding it the relevant information/display.

I think the smart gun software is in the gun. I also think the info it sends is design for visual interpratation by metahumans (although I see nothing wrong with a "smart link" autosoft)

also, lets look at what exactly is included in a smart gun system;

1. laser range finder
2. camera
3. ammo counter
4. heat and stress sensors
5. gun mode control
6. clip release
7. trigger control
8. firing arc calculator
9. room for vision enhancements on small camera

THATS IT!!!!!
I suppose #8 leaves room for all kinds of speculation on motion sensors and humidistats and such stuff, but its just a +2, a little bit of fog can cancle out that bonus, if they're at long range it just breaks even. sounds like a range finder with some crosshairs to me

fog....

throw in in some jamming, and the sensors are degraded. or even shut down the connection from drone to the rigger

if the weapon on the drone is smartlinked/ a smartgun system, it can be hacked just like a normal smartlink....which leads to all the fun things you can do

and if the GM allows it, a whole new way to modify NPCs to give them a chance vs the PCS

You're forgetting that the gun becomes an electronic device and, therefore, comes with gyros and wireless. It knows where it is and where it's pointing. Part of AR, don'tcha know?

Except that since it's physically connected to the drone, it will be hardwired, with its' wireless connection switch in the OFF position, and subscribed to the drone, which should have a maxed out firewall and extremely aggressive patrolling IC running on its' own node.

That's one of the problems with being able to copy Agents as many times as you want. You can't use multiple copies in the same node, but you can put a copy in every device you own, each running a Homeground autosoft along with its' suite of combat programs and an analyze program.