Full Version: Damage of Fencing Weapons
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ May 31 2005, 12:37 PM) | ||
How odd. There are plenty of people who've been shot through a limb with a firearm and have continued functioning with only a small hit in efficiency, yet a very minor limb wound with a rapier is guaranteed to cause that limb to go limp? |
As I said, he got back up immediately after the hit. But he went down on the hit because his leg went limp and he kind of needed it no to do so in order to stay upright in the middle of a bout.
If you get shot in the leg, you will go down. You may get back up afterward, but you are virtually guaranteed to go down on the shot. As for functionning with "a small hit in efficiency", well, can I assume you are talking about someone fighting with a rifle in a modern war? Yes, that's no big deal. Doesn't involve your whole body as extensively. But if you fight with an injured leg in melee combat, that's a huge hit in efficiency. You need your legs both to hit effectively and dodge. Without two healthy legs, you are almost helpless in a duel.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| If you get shot in the leg, you will go down. You may get back up afterward, but you are virtually guaranteed to go down on the shot. |
That's simply not right. People get penetrating hits in the legs often without dropping. There're plenty of documented from recent wars where rifle shots at close range have penetrate muscles in the legs and thighs without causing a soldier to drop. Indeed sometimes they keep on fighting and only notice they've been severely injured afterwards. You might drop down, but it's absolutely not guaranteed.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| As for functionning with "a small hit in efficiency", well, can I assume you are talking about someone fighting with a rifle in a modern war? |
Yes. Running around, shooting, throwing grenades, that sort of thing.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| [Option 2:] Rapiers are swords, but they do piercing damage like spears (except they use one hand, not 2). Knock 1 power off the spear for a one-handed weapon, and you get (Str+3)L. Reach stays at 1. (Reach on rapiers is actually better than the average sword, but not enough different to make it 2.) |
Is the best contextual fit to SR system, given the "thrust and some cut, no slash" style of the rapier, with the caveat that plate full harness would be 3/3 hardened at least and grant functional immunity.
And I'll check the arguments about how full harness was never munitions issue armor, how munitions issue armor doesn't even exist yet when the armor piercing Hispano-Italian musket takes the field after the Battle of Flanders, and how a draw cut that begins with the edge already resting against the target still inflicts a 5+ cm deep wound with little effort...to the next Medieval Hopologist Hijacking.
If the Knights beat the Samurai in the World Series this year, can we have katana autocensored to k****a by the obscenity filter
?
[stupid, pointless rant]
This thread reminds me of a player a few years ago and, with dead seriousness, proclaimed
This thread reminds me of a player a few years ago and, with dead seriousness, proclaimed
| QUOTE |
| You know, in real life a rapier could never kill a dragon. |
In real life:
- dragons (trolls, etc.) don't exist
- we're all nerdy roleplayers, not killers for hire
- you can take physical damage from a blunt object
- getting shot, even accidentally, even with a light pistol, could be a deadly experience
Yes, rapiers are deadly weapons. So are .22 cal pistols. So is a sharpened pencil. I could be killed in seconds by someone weilding any of these. So what?
Aren't we done beating this dead horse yet?
[/stupid, pointless rant]
| QUOTE (Charon @ May 31 2005, 12:31 PM) | ||||
Two inches in your arm and you drop your weapon, two inches in your leg and you drop to the ground. Believing otherwise belies the fact that you've watched too many movies. I've seen video of a fencing tip that broke while making a hit at the leg. The broken shard penetretated barely half a inch in the unlucky target's leg and he dropped like a sack. He got back up and limped away, cursing his way to the infirmary, but on the hit he dropped. It's a reflex, you can't help it; your limb goes limp at the hit. As for the possibility that you have more than 2 inches worth of skin protecting your organs, there are three possibilities : 1 - You don't truly realize how deep 2 inches go. 2 - You are exagerating to win a point. 3 - You are very fat. If so, I'm sorry to inform you that you are not winning any duel against a fencer if you are that fat. That might not be politically correct, but that's life. As for the possibility of a double touche, the point of striking only two inches into your opponent is precisely to avoid that. If I run you through, my blade is stuck and you can kill me in your dying throes. If I just tagged you two inches in the stomach or on your sword arm and withdrew as fast as I attacked, you lost. It'll be too fast for you to tag me in the same exchange (with an axe, no less). There's a reason no one brought an axe to a renaissance duel (where the opponent wore no armor). First hit wins if you avoid the double touche, and speed gives you first hit. |
Sorry to prove you wrong but I once had a 4 inche knife stuck in my leg. All it did was motivate me to break the jerks face. No limpness, not even a limp. Now that man may have had a very low tolerance to pain. Where as I have a very high tolerance. I have walked on broken legs, sprained ankles, wounded knees. I have used an arm while the shoulder was out of socket. I have been stuck by way too many things and the one one that slowed me down was the six inch spike through my foot. So don't assume everyone is wimpy.
As for being Fat, yes I am, but I guarantee if I have an axe and you have a foil, you're dead and I'm in the hospital mainly becuase you vastly underestimated me, poor moronic you.
Interesting life. Remind me to stay at least 50 feet away from you at all times, and wear protective eyewear.
No reason to make things personal, though.
No reason to make things personal, though.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| Two inches in your arm and you drop your weapon, two inches in your leg and you drop to the ground. Believing otherwise belies the fact that you've watched too many movies. I've seen video of a fencing tip that broke while making a hit at the leg. The broken shard penetretated barely half a inch in the unlucky target's leg and he dropped like a sack. He got back up and limped away, cursing his way to the infirmary, but on the hit he dropped. It's a reflex, you can't help it; your limb goes limp at the hit. |
While this is certainly a possible result, it's in no way guaranteed, or even necessarily usual. In combat, it's actually more likely that the wounded party will drastically underestimate the severity of the damage, sometimes to the degree of not even noticing it, and keep on functioning basically unimpaired until blood loss catches up to him or the pain gets through the painkilling effects of adrenaline.
In a fencing bout, it's likely that the injured fencer was not already in full fight-or-flight mode, and didn't have the immediate buffer against the initial pain of the injury that being seriously wired on adrenaline in a real life-or-death situation provides. (Even in simulated combat, large melees produce this more reliably than one-on-one duels.)
As for rapier damage, (Str+3)L sounds about right to me. The amount of overall trauma isn't as significant as, say, hacking at someone with a broadsword (M damage), but it's deeply penetrating damage, difficult to resist. And, yes, Strength-based. Placement is important, and technique actually supplies more effective blow power than raw muscle does, but, all else being equal, a stronger attacker will do more damage than a weaker one, and, at any rate, those are both skill, not raw Quickness, and quite adequately covered by the staging up of damage from successes on the skill-based attack roll. I do think the skill should probably be Quickness-based, not Strength-based, but I think that all of the melee skills should be Quickness-based (or, as Doc Funk suggests, Reaction-based).
First off, comparing rapiers to katanas is not logical. Katanas are slashing weapons, while rapiers are piercing. Those are two totally different fighting styles that depend on two totally different movements. Yes, you can pierce with a katana, but that isn't what it is made for (they're curved to slash more effectively), and yes, you can slash with a rapier, but a sabre works much better for this purpose (which is also curved, a little, anyway).
As for rapiers using the quickness attribute instead of strength, if you want to house rule, go for it, provided you and your players agree to the change. I'd personally use those stats for a watered-down spear like someone suggested.
As for two inches of steel killing people immediately, it is all about actually hitting the person precisely, not about the raw damage the weapon can deal. That is where skill comes in. (Str+3)L depends upon a lot of skill (read:successes) to deal out the damage. Yeah, a rapier can kill you, but, like most other weapons, only if you use it effectively.
As for rapiers using the quickness attribute instead of strength, if you want to house rule, go for it, provided you and your players agree to the change. I'd personally use those stats for a watered-down spear like someone suggested.
As for two inches of steel killing people immediately, it is all about actually hitting the person precisely, not about the raw damage the weapon can deal. That is where skill comes in. (Str+3)L depends upon a lot of skill (read:successes) to deal out the damage. Yeah, a rapier can kill you, but, like most other weapons, only if you use it effectively.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| Any legs : He'll have dropped to the floor the instant as little as an inch went through his leg. If he gets back up, he's not mobile. Attack in fencing involves heavily the legs. Without it, you're helpless. |
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| It's a reflex, you can't help it; your limb goes limp at the hit. |
As much as it pains me to agree with a . . . thing . . .like lorthazar, I have to say, this is not true, or at least not universally. I've been tased, stabbed, and peppersprayed without falling down. I also had an icepick driven all the way through my hand and I was able to use it to great effect in the following seconds. While ancedotal evidence shouldn't be used to prove a theory, it can be if the theory contains absolutes that contradict ancedotal evidence.
It's also wrong to say that if a man with an axe meets a man with a rapier, the man with the axe will win.
It's wrong to villify the katana, AND it's wrong to idolize it. They were good swords. Other people in other countries also made some damn fine swords from time to time.
It's wrong to say a troll wouldn't get his bonus against a rapier, because big plates of bone would certainly stop a rapier.
It's wrong to say a warhammer should degrade SR armor, because it is barely analogous to the metal plate warhammers were invented for use against.
Preach, brotha!
Does anybody else wonder how the frag this many roleplayers have managed to get such horrific injuries and go through such awesome battles? Isn't it a little odd how many people have these stories (Sans pictures, proof, records, etc?)
Personally I have no fencing experience, I've never held a rapier (I do use a Machete to cut really heavy weeds now and then) and the worst injury I've ever had was a farming accident involving improperly stacked wood. Somehow I've also never killed a ninja with my bare hands. So I have no opinion on the meat of this topic, just a general amusement at all the super warriors in here who managed to keep fighting under such suspicious circumstances.
Personally I have no fencing experience, I've never held a rapier (I do use a Machete to cut really heavy weeds now and then) and the worst injury I've ever had was a farming accident involving improperly stacked wood. Somehow I've also never killed a ninja with my bare hands. So I have no opinion on the meat of this topic, just a general amusement at all the super warriors in here who managed to keep fighting under such suspicious circumstances.
Well, in all fairness, it's not like "roleplayer" is a career choice (much less an exclusive one). I know gamers that are cops, soldiers, martial artists, martial arts instructors, you name it. Violence happens, and sometimes it even happens to people who might wish they were rolling dice instead.
Now, I also hang out on-line too much to beleive every internet commando's story of bravery, invincibility, and derring-do in the face of overwhelming odds and lethal danger. But that doesn't mean I automatically call anyone who's said they've been in a fight a liar.
Now, I also hang out on-line too much to beleive every internet commando's story of bravery, invincibility, and derring-do in the face of overwhelming odds and lethal danger. But that doesn't mean I automatically call anyone who's said they've been in a fight a liar.
Well you're right. That is a more fair definition. I just find the sheer number of exceptional badasses in threads around here a bit suspicious. My own experiences with getting punctured are more on the line of "Pain so bad I couldn't move."
We need a melee version of Raygun to cut through the crap and give us some proof, as it is certain folks are just typing about their opinions, I want some proof or historical records or something dangit.
We need a melee version of Raygun to cut through the crap and give us some proof, as it is certain folks are just typing about their opinions, I want some proof or historical records or something dangit.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| Does anybody else wonder how the frag this many roleplayers have managed to get such horrific injuries and go through such awesome battles? Isn't it a little odd how many people have these stories (Sans pictures, proof, records, etc?) Personally I have no fencing experience, I've never held a rapier (I do use a Machete to cut really heavy weeds now and then) and the worst injury I've ever had was a farming accident involving improperly stacked wood. Somehow I've also never killed a ninja with my bare hands. So I have no opinion on the meat of this topic, just a general amusement at all the super warriors in here who managed to keep fighting under such suspicious circumstances. |
Well, personally, I was a process server and repoman for several years. I've also worked as a bar bouncer. It's a nice kind of reverse elitism to assume everyone on the internet/involved with roleplaying is a pencil necked pansy, it kind of relieves a subtle fear of guys like that conan sketch about about "Handsome jock who knows just as much about starwars as you"
Reverse elitism? No. As Critias said, people who've actually been in combat exist, and do play games. The thing is, on this board in particular, I see about five times as many people claiming to have suffered and survived unbelievable damage and battles without so much as losing their balance, all with no proof to back it up, as I do on boards like RPG.net which have a hundred times as many people wandering around. So, can you actually back up your assertions? For instance this ice pick through your hand, can you take and post pictures of the front and back of your hands showing the scars on each side?
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| Well you're right. That is a more fair definition. I just find the sheer number of exceptional badasses in threads around here a bit suspicious. My own experiences with getting punctured are more on the line of "Pain so bad I couldn't move." We need a melee version of Raygun to cut through the crap and give us some proof, as it is certain folks are just typing about their opinions, I want some proof or historical records or something dangit. |
Go to www.bullshido.net.
The funny thing for me about this discussion is, I've had my share of bar fights etc etc, but the only scar I actually carry was given me in a classroom fight at school by a compass (obviously I mean the sharp pointy thing used for drawing circles with 
), a four-inch ragged slash across the forearm that looks waaay worse than it actually was.
), a four-inch ragged slash across the forearm that looks waaay worse than it actually was.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 9 2005, 01:01 AM) |
| Well, in all fairness, it's not like "roleplayer" is a career choice (much less an exclusive one). I know gamers that are cops, soldiers, martial artists, martial arts instructors, you name it. Violence happens, and sometimes it even happens to people who might wish they were rolling dice instead. Now, I also hang out on-line too much to beleive every internet commando's story of bravery, invincibility, and derring-do in the face of overwhelming odds and lethal danger. But that doesn't mean I automatically call anyone who's said they've been in a fight a liar. |
If it matters, I am a real pussy. Nope, no toughness here. Although I did cauterize my foot once. I passed out from the smell, but I stopped bleeding.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| Reverse elitism? No. As Critias said, people who've actually been in combat exist, and do play games. The thing is, on this board in particular, I see about five times as many people claiming to have suffered and survived unbelievable damage and battles without so much as losing their balance, all with no proof to back it up, as I do on boards like RPG.net which have a hundred times as many people wandering around. So, can you actually back up your assertions? For instance this ice pick through your hand, can you take and post pictures of the front and back of your hands showing the scars on each side? |
It was seven years ago, and an ice pick is smaller then a pencil - the scar on the top of my hand is very small, maybe 1/3 of an inch, and the one on the bottom is only a veinous blue dot. It wasn't a stabbing - it was a drunken accident - so it was very clean, as the person let go an apologized instead of working it around or pulling it out. I'll take one for you, but what does posting a scar from the back of my hand proove, anyway everybody's probably got a couple of little nicks here and there... Just keep an eye on my posts and decide if you believe me or not over time.
<grr> - I just tried to take a picture of it and my arm appears to be about 4 inches shorter then the minimum focal length of my camera. You'll have to wait until I can get help taking it.
And jesus, unbelievable damage? You don't think someone could get stabbed in the leg to a two to four inch depth and not fall down 'because it's a reflex'? No one on this thread is like, "I took a full clip of .45 ammo to the chest and it just bounced off" and the worst "battle" anyone had alluded too consisted of a punch in the face.
I would suggest that a rapier would be (STR)M. Light is basically no damage at all -- heck, even a knife deserves more than that, imho -- and the design of the rapier is not such that it would "leverage" your strength, nor is it designed to be armor piercing (it's more like to bend or snap) so there's no way to justify (STR+2) really.
As far as the rapier not requiring strength is concerned, well, I have to ask the people who are saying that the following question: Have you ever tried to swing an aluminium baseball bat around one-handed, rapier style for any length of time? Most aluminum baseball bats weigh less than two pounds, and two pounds is where most swords *start*. Is that instructive at a all? Yeah, the rapier is going to be balanced differently, but it's still 2-3 lbs of steel in a 2+ foot blade. It requires quite a bit of strength to swing it around quickly with one hand.
2-3 lbs doesn't seem a lot, but it's the LENGTH that gets you. Keep in mind that when you're swinging a blade around, the torque it takes to swing it around is equal to the weight of the blade times the distance to the center of mass. It's MULTIPLIED. This means that that 2lb toolbox hammer you've got is a LOT easier to swing around than the 2lb sword.
The problem with a rapier is that it doesn't actually use any of that energy in damaging the opponent; it's just a piercing weapon. There are knives out there that would have a MUCH easier time dismembering someone than a rapier (think khukuri) simply because they make use of the torque involved in the swinging of the weapon.
But all that said, trying to base your Shadowrun weapon damage on reality really is pointless, because there is more to it than just weapon design and strength; for example, often times you'll put some of your body weight behind your strike, but you don't see the damage code as (STR+BOD)M, do you? Just pick something that seems close to reasonable; as someone mentioned, a spear is a fairly close weapon in damage behavior to a rapier.
As far as the rapier not requiring strength is concerned, well, I have to ask the people who are saying that the following question: Have you ever tried to swing an aluminium baseball bat around one-handed, rapier style for any length of time? Most aluminum baseball bats weigh less than two pounds, and two pounds is where most swords *start*. Is that instructive at a all? Yeah, the rapier is going to be balanced differently, but it's still 2-3 lbs of steel in a 2+ foot blade. It requires quite a bit of strength to swing it around quickly with one hand.
2-3 lbs doesn't seem a lot, but it's the LENGTH that gets you. Keep in mind that when you're swinging a blade around, the torque it takes to swing it around is equal to the weight of the blade times the distance to the center of mass. It's MULTIPLIED. This means that that 2lb toolbox hammer you've got is a LOT easier to swing around than the 2lb sword.
The problem with a rapier is that it doesn't actually use any of that energy in damaging the opponent; it's just a piercing weapon. There are knives out there that would have a MUCH easier time dismembering someone than a rapier (think khukuri) simply because they make use of the torque involved in the swinging of the weapon.
But all that said, trying to base your Shadowrun weapon damage on reality really is pointless, because there is more to it than just weapon design and strength; for example, often times you'll put some of your body weight behind your strike, but you don't see the damage code as (STR+BOD)M, do you?
Just pick something that seems close to reasonable; as someone mentioned, a spear is a fairly close weapon in damage behavior to a rapier.
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