as a new gm with only two games under my belt, rules changes from 2nd edition (my last regular experience in SR) still astound me. last game i could have tpk'ed the party with an medium threat npc force/magic 5 manaball but luckily i messed up the rules and let them roll reaction versus it (and gave the caster cover penalties) in addition to resisting it with willpower+counterspelling. according to the rules, it's not a ranged attack to use a direct spell so you only roll magic + spellcasting vs body/willpower + counterspelling. is there a reason to ever use indirect spells other than for specific elemental effects? (i.e. the enemy is holed up near a 50gal drum of gasoline and you cast flamethrower) i could understand if you didn't add net hits to the DV but you do even in this case. on the flip side, how do you defend as a mundane against direct spells other than having a group member with maxed out counterspelling within LOS?

signed,
hoping not to be a killer gm (unless the group really deserves it!)

The logical reasons for indirect are if the opponents have heavy counterspelling or you don't have LOS. Using multiple mages and teamwork you can generate a lot of counterspell dice.


You don't. You just die. The only options are magic resistance (blah) or astral hazing. You get points for having astral hazing and it works better than magic resistance. Better as in it kills spirits who try to close on you.

And direct magic does take vision / cover mods.

An intelligent mundane can easily go up against a mage; vision penalties apply to spellcasting. What such a character needs to do is disrupt Line of Sight & attack from surprise.

Indirect Area spells only need Line of Sight to their center point; after that, they can hit targets the magician cannot see. You still need LoS for Indirect Single-Target spells.



In other words, Direct spells are nearly always more effective than Indirect spells, & with significantly less Drain.

Questions related:
What should I do if I cannot surprise the mage or go first (To disrupt the Line of Sight)?
And if I cannot determine who is the mage, how do I accurately disrupt LoS? (ninja puff smoke, perhaps? but then I cant see)?

Overall advice:
Keep Aware
Keep counterspelling up

Use smoke you CAN see through, but the mage cant. A traditional smoke grenade can be seen through with thermographic vision, something a mage will only have if he's dumped essence for cyber eyes, or is using a spell that grants it(street magic).

You could also not be in line of sight at all. If the mage cant see you, he cant target you. Use your gun cam and fire around the corner when it's your turn.

Aren't Thermographic contact lenses like only 150 Nuyen?

And yes, if you can get an advantage an shoot around corners great.

What do you do when a fight suddenly breaks out? When you havent had passes to move or take cover. When the Drek hits the fan?

Yes, but they haven't been paid for with Essense, so a mage can't use them to target people with spells.

When a fight suddenly breaks out, mundanes tend to have higher initiative than mages, and a semi-automatic pistol shoots twice compared to the mage's single spell.

When it is an ambush, you are in trouble whether it is a mage casting a spell, or a sniper firing from a rooftop.

I like the thermal smoke + radar or ultrasound sensors option. Mages can't target with ultrasound or radar, even if they've got it in their cybereyes, and both will cut through invisibility, as well as the thermal smoke grenades you're chucking.

Thanks for catching the essence failure on my part.
My current players have mages that are rolling with the Synaptic Booster (grade 2). When fights break out they tend to go 3rd or 4th. I'll try to smoke first and see how it works in the fight. The two die penalty (fraggin pointy ears) combined with my love of flashpaks should make them less effective by the second round.

Rad,
Help a runner out. Do you know were a list of what you can and cannot use,even after spending essence, as a mage is? This is not a smartass question. I want to see if my players are pulling one over on me.

Not sure one exists, I just know there was a massive war on the forums a while back over this. As I recall the consensus was that Radar and Ultrasound don't count because they're electronic overlays rather than actual "vision", as opposed to thermographic which still works on the same principle but uses a part of the spectrum normally visible only to trolls.

Didn't make much sense when you consider that radar waves are also part of the EM spectrum, I think the real reason behind the decision was so that troll mages didn't lose their ability to target with thermovision by getting cybereyes.

Anyway it might be covered in the errata somewhere or something...

...it'd be funny if they had that big argument and the eventual answer turned out not to be core.

Thanks Chummer, for now I will continue to let my players have free reign on vision.

And then I will pull their characters eyes out.

It makes a lot of sense. Radar is not a vision enhancement, so cannot be used period. If you create a set of eyes that send & receive radar, then yes, you should be able to use it for targeting, but it would probably be directional, & subject to GM approval (I might allow it, if the character has the appropriate skills to design & construct the implant).

Ultrasound is a no-go because it is not vision. Period. It is an audio system that places a visual overlay for you to see; you cannot use it for targeting for the same reasons you cannot use a monitor for targeting.

In the case of the argument you where talking about, it was for the echo-location bioware combination or metagenic quality. Still a no-go because it still is not vision. This time it is audio & tactical.

Radar, ultrasound, and non-cybernetic thermographic vision don't work because, rather than enhancing the spellcaster's vision, they replace it with a computer-rendered representation. That puts them in the same category as camera or matrix feeds. "Technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses...cannot be used." (main book, pg. 173).

"Natural" ultrasound from bioware, SURGE, or adept abilities can't be used, because it is not vision. You can only target spells by sight or touch, not by sonar, smell, etc.

Since there has already been a discussion on this subject I apologize for ressurecting it here.