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IcarusATB
I have been looking for a way to get a legal license. I have a character who has a valid SIN (by thaking the SINner Negative Quality) and in SR4 there is the section that discusses Availability and whatnot, but it only says that a valid license can be purchased through appropriate channels. There is no listing for how much that costs, or how long it would take to get. In previous editions, it was something like adding 10% to the cost of whatever you were getting. And there were concealed-carry permits.

If the writers put in the SINner quality, it's obviously not assumed that all characters (despite being Runners) are going to do everything the illegal way. Why would I want to get one forged if I have a SIN. I dont' care that I would have to pay extra for the license... it would mean a cop can't f** with me too much if I'm legal.

Anyone have any suggestinos about how to do the licenses ... or where to find them (in case I am just an ass, and missed seeing them)?
Thanks, in advance, for your help.

Wade
aka Icarus
Malachi
I don't think I've seen a price for that anywhere in the book. Time to make one up and move on.
BookWyrm
Something tells me to look in the New Seattle sourcebook. AH, if you're out there, can you back me up on this?
kzt
Assume it's part of your lifestyle if it's middle or higher?
Beetle
QUOTE (IcarusATB @ Jan 31 2009, 06:29 PM) *
I have been looking for a way to get a legal license. I have a character who has a valid SIN (by thaking the SINner Negative Quality) and in SR4 there is the section that discusses Availability and whatnot, but it only says that a valid license can be purchased through appropriate channels. There is no listing for how much that costs, or how long it would take to get. In previous editions, it was something like adding 10% to the cost of whatever you were getting. And there were concealed-carry permits.

If the writers put in the SINner quality, it's obviously not assumed that all characters (despite being Runners) are going to do everything the illegal way. Why would I want to get one forged if I have a SIN. I dont' care that I would have to pay extra for the license... it would mean a cop can't f** with me too much if I'm legal.

Anyone have any suggestinos about how to do the licenses ... or where to find them (in case I am just an ass, and missed seeing them)?
Thanks, in advance, for your help.

Wade
aka Icarus


I dredged up my old Shadowtech book for specific license ideas when there wasn't much to go on for fourth. I didn't play much 3rd edition so there may be some updated rules you could convert from there. As for fourth edition, you're S.O.L. think about what is required for current times and improvise from there. SiNner want a drivers license? No problem, catch a ride down to the DMV, hand over your state's fees and there you go. To get a conceal/carry permit in Florida you have to take a weekend long gun safety class followed by a class for the conceal/carry then take a written test showing you understand the rules and regulations. The classes around here cost about $100.

In the end, legit licenses are probably cheaper than a fake ones by a good amount, just take into account what kind they're trying to get and wing it from there.

Cops can still mess with you, even if you have legit paper work. They will find something to take you in for if you give them too much drek. Things to think about; Cop pulls you over, notices your under shoulder holster with the butt of your predator obviously containing a magazine. Sure, you may have the permit stating the firearm is registered to you. If you don't have a conceal carry permit, your ass in taking a ride down town. A carry permit isn't just the paperwork saying you may have a firearm on your person, it's permit that you may carry a loaded firearm. Be it on your person or in your car. In Florida if you don't have a conceal/carry you have to have ammunition at least three steps away from your firearm. IE, your gun has to a) not be loaded, b) ammunition not be within reach. If I have my unloaded Predator in its case, say in the floor board of the passenger seat, and I have the ammo in the glovebox I'm breaking the law. There are loop holes to everything, every locale has different ordinances and laws. Best course of action, don't give the Star a reason to even look at you, let alone talk to you.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Beetle @ Jan 31 2009, 07:08 PM) *
Best course of action, don't give the Star a reason to even look at you, let alone talk to you.


Or, you know, just kill every cop who pulls you over as a matter of course. That works, too.It can also be lot more convenient. And if you're smart and take his body to a chop-shop, well Lone Star does implant some decent suites from time to time and any good organs will fetch a penny or two. And even if his organs aren't harvestable, he'll feed several people.
Hagga
SR3, but not bad. For prices.
http://evenmere.org/~bts/SR/sr3permits.html
QUOTE
ChipheadCharley
In earlier editions of SR it was around 10% of the cost of the item, but for vehicle liscences i'd say it was covered in lifestyle (low and above, just because you squat in a junked out car doesnt neccessarily mean you can drive it.)
Larme
You could easily handwave the price of legal licenses, because they come with so many strings attached. Licensed firearms can be tracked in an instant, if you ever discharged a legal weapon, they'd know it was you. Really, there's almost no point to legal licenses. You only need licenses for Restricted gear, and the only real way to use such gear is in the commission of a crime... And if you use it that way, you're screwed, by and large. Fake licenses are useful because they get you through checkpoints and searches, but they link to a fake SIN which is not much good for tracking you, especially if you use multiple SINs or do everything with certified cred.
Mx
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 1 2009, 06:20 PM) *
Licensed firearms can be tracked in an instant, if you ever discharged a legal weapon, they'd know it was you.

Umm how?
Wanderer
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 1 2009, 05:20 PM) *
You could easily handwave the price of legal licenses, because they come with so many strings attached. Licensed firearms can be tracked in an instant, if you ever discharged a legal weapon, they'd know it was you. Really, there's almost no point to legal licenses. You only need licenses for Restricted gear, and the only real way to use such gear is in the commission of a crime... And if you use it that way, you're screwed, by and large. Fake licenses are useful because they get you through checkpoints and searches, but they link to a fake SIN which is not much good for tracking you, especially if you use multiple SINs or do everything with certified cred.


I would agree with most of this, Acutally I was wondering whether there might exist an exception, namely the licences that would allow one to know and use dangerous magical spells and/or adept powers, and (in jurisdiction where this is allowed) to be an "exotic" critter like a Shapeshifter, Vampire, or such ? When you get to use your "real" SIN for whatever reason, wouldnt have "real" licences for those reduce the risk of cop/security harassment, too ?
Method
I tend to agree with Larme. The value of a legal firearm is rather limited. To be legal it means it must be registered to your real SIN, and if you are a shadowrunner using a weapon linked to your real SIN you're doing it wrong. If you are playing an alternate theme campaign like LS or DW it ceases to be an issue. So yeah, don't really need that rule. Just make it 10% of the item's cost and run with it.

As far as detecting a legal fire arm- my guess is that any PAN with a subscribed firearm would be required to transmit that info in secure areas, just like some states require a concealed carry holder to notify the police that they have a weapon if they are pulled over for speeding or what have you. The discharge could be detected by sensors equipped with Weapon Watcher software. They already have similar systems in RL that use sound analysis software to triangulate on gunshots. LINK. Add 2070's info tech to that and they will know who shot the gun.

Larme
QUOTE (Mäx @ Feb 1 2009, 11:27 AM) *
Umm how?


They keep a record of the gun's ballistics. I don't know anything about it, but supposedly each gun has unique ballistics, and bullets can be traced back to the guns that fired them. But more importantly, SR4 ammo has taggant nanites in it. Each bullet you buy with a valid SIN under a legal license will be recorded, and when they sniff around the crime scene, they'll find the taggants from your bullets and they'll know it was you.
Mx
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 1 2009, 07:09 PM) *
But more importantly, SR4 ammo has taggant nanites in it. Each bullet you buy with a valid SIN under a legal license will be recorded, and when they sniff around the crime scene, they'll find the taggants from your bullets and they'll know it was you.

Where is this from?
Becouse i don't remember reading anythink like that anywhere in the books.
And even if thats true databalkanization really helps me in this, if i do a run agains evo and my sin is from ares, nobody is going to get to the data about my bullets.
Tiger Eyes
I can think of a lot of uses for a legal license. For a firearm, just because it is legally registered, doesn't mean a talented shadowrunner couldn't alter the gun - I mean, if a cop sees you are licensed to carry an Ares Predator, and the gun/your PAN is broadcasting the appropriate data "showing" the gun is the one you're registered for, can he really tell if you're carrying that particular Predator, or a different one? Just because your "registered" Predator ballistics and tags say XYZ, doesn't mean you need to carry that specific Predator... Just change up the data. You know what I mean?

Other useful licenses would be for cyberware (mind you, I doubt you can get licenses for everything... probably no box on the form to check for "cybertroll with machine gun arms"), mandatory registration for the Awakened or Emergent (um, probably don't want to register as a TM, just saying), licenses to practice some spells, drivers licenses, car registration, licenses for being a private detective, licenses to have restricted programs on your commlink, licenses or prescriptions for some restricted drugs, licenses for professions--massage therapists!--licenses for a pet, etc, etc.

Personally, I'd go with the 10% or 100 nuyen.gif , which ever is less. At GMs discretion, the license could be free and the fee covers mandatory education classes or testing (ie, a DMV test). Other items I'd say were free; for example, with mandatory registration for the Awakened in UCAS, I imagine it is free to register. If you want to be licensed to practice magic, that might require a "certification fee." (rather like a CPA exam, I imagine)
kzt
That trick never works. You replace the firing pin and barrel and no match.

Anyhow, the real advantage of having legal firearms is that you can legally carry them when you are NOT busy committing crimes. This means that when some ganger kicks your door down you can shoot them without the need to next grab your bug out bag and bolt before the cops show. You are an honest citizen defending themselves, not streetscum.

And no matter how good the SIN verifier is, it won't break your real ID.
Method
You top a guy with a legal weapon and you are still taken into custody for a lengthy investigation. I don't know about you, but if I'm a shadowrunner the last thing I want is an investigation, SIN not withstanding. And thats assuming you are in a jurisdiction where you actually have the right to an investigation. In the end, you might be alive but you better have that bug out bag at the ready because your legal SIN just ceased to be of any value.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Method @ Feb 1 2009, 01:37 PM) *
You top a guy with a legal weapon and you are still taken into custody for a lengthy investigation. I don't know about you, but if I'm a shadowrunner the last thing I want is an investigation, SIN not withstanding. And thats assuming you are in a jurisdiction where you actually have the right to an investigation. In the end, you might be alive but you better have that bug out bag at the ready because your legal SIN just ceased to be of any value.


The length of the investigation and the probability of being taken into custody depends on many factors, including the jurisdiction and the number of witnesses who support your story.

If you're legally carrying and find yourself in the middle of a convince store robbery, all that would be necessary is a quick look at the security recording and a statement from the cashier and it would be all wrapped up. Particularly in Sixth World Seattle.

If you're in LA and a gangbanger attacks you in your home, however, you can prepare for many years of forcible prison sex before the case even gets to trial if you make any attempt to defend yourself, which is why LA residents should keep both an ample supply of hydrofloric acid and a polyethylene tub large enough to hold a human corpse in their homes just in case.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Feb 1 2009, 07:02 PM) *
I can think of a lot of uses for a legal license. For a firearm, just because it is legally registered, doesn't mean a talented shadowrunner couldn't alter the gun - I mean, if a cop sees you are licensed to carry an Ares Predator, and the gun/your PAN is broadcasting the appropriate data "showing" the gun is the one you're registered for, can he really tell if you're carrying that particular Predator, or a different one? Just because your "registered" Predator ballistics and tags say XYZ, doesn't mean you need to carry that specific Predator... Just change up the data. You know what I mean?

Other useful licenses would be for cyberware (mind you, I doubt you can get licenses for everything... probably no box on the form to check for "cybertroll with machine gun arms"), mandatory registration for the Awakened or Emergent (um, probably don't want to register as a TM, just saying), licenses to practice some spells, drivers licenses, car registration, licenses for being a private detective, licenses to have restricted programs on your commlink, licenses or prescriptions for some restricted drugs, licenses for professions--massage therapists!--licenses for a pet, etc, etc.

Personally, I'd go with the 10% or 100 nuyen.gif , which ever is less. At GMs discretion, the license could be free and the fee covers mandatory education classes or testing (ie, a DMV test). Other items I'd say were free; for example, with mandatory registration for the Awakened in UCAS, I imagine it is free to register. If you want to be licensed to practice magic, that might require a "certification fee." (rather like a CPA exam, I imagine)

Pet license? You need a license to have a pet? I can understand a license for paracritters (lets face it an hell hound is great as a pet, nothing can give a warmer welcome when you return home), but does it apply to hamsters?
Also about the being licensed for practicing magic, is it practicing magic as a job (being that required to avoid charlatans to exploit general ignorance of people) or to cast any spell, because the first makes sense, the second is pretty anal: Sorry I don't have the license for casting heal spell; No I can't use a spell to fix it I'm unlicensed; Is it possible that I need a license to cast healthy glow on myself?; Why did I nothing instead of casting? Law preventes me from using magic.
kzt
The more useful license is a security company license. It's a lot easier to get machineguns and rockets when you can avoid the crooks and just send a PO to Ares.
Larme
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 1 2009, 02:30 PM) *
If you're in LA and a gangbanger attacks you in your home, however, you can prepare for many years of forcible prison sex before the case even gets to trial if you make any attempt to defend yourself, which is why LA residents should keep both an ample supply of hydrofloric acid and a polyethylene tub large enough to hold a human corpse in their homes just in case.


Apparently someone's never heard of the castle doctrine... If you're in your home and you believe someone will seriously hurt you, you can retaliate with lethal force, even if you could safely escape instead. If there was ever an open and shut case of self defense, it's where a person with a criminal record is shot dead inside of a stranger's home, by the owner of the home, using a legal, registered firearm.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 1 2009, 09:21 PM) *
The more useful license is a security company license. It's a lot easier to get machineguns and rockets when you can avoid the crooks and just send a PO to Ares.

Too bad that security licenses cover only certain locations, so if go around with a SMG or an AR outside the location you are supposed to protect you are in a world of hurt if the Star catch you; also we are speaking of real licenses not fakes so it's highly unlikely to aquire one (it's probable that the license is given to security corps for their employ, and than you are covered by the license as long you are working on sites contracted to the corp that employes you), and checkes for fakes are extremely accurate.
Also do you realy want to own legaly that kind of dreck? And do you honestly think that a security company can get anything that requires heavy weapon skill to be used? Macheguns and rocket launchers a military gear, unless you work for a mercenary corp (for exemple MET2000) it's a no-no and the best you can get are AR, shotguns and sniper rifles.

If I were in you I would go for a private detective, it gives you all the those litle things that you might wat to have when you're not on a run: concealed carry, heavy pistols, gadgets such as jammers and sensors, restricted programs, cyber/bio-ware, all the things that a paranoid shadowrunner would want to always have at hand when not committing crimes minus the RFD eraser.
Larme
Security companies can get Restricted gear legally, but not Forbidden. Forbidden stuff cannot be licensed, it can only be carried by legal militaries. That doesn't mean there aren't security companies who use forbidden gear, just that they don't ever do it legally.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 1 2009, 04:08 PM) *
Apparently someone's never heard of the castle doctrine... If you're in your home and you believe someone will seriously hurt you, you can retaliate with lethal force, even if you could safely escape instead. If there was ever an open and shut case of self defense, it's where a person with a criminal record is shot dead inside of a stranger's home, by the owner of the home, using a legal, registered firearm.


I'm speaking of Los Angeles, the City of Angels, not of the State of California. While California does have a Castle Doctrine Law, and is fairly Conservative, that particular city has less admiration for those who use lethal force in self defense than others do, and it tends to have fairly zealous prosecutors, too. So the chances of being arrested aren't low. And while you'd never be convicted at trial, it is also possible that you'd never make bail and with the courts being backed up as they are you could easily find yourself in a situation where pleading guilty would get you less time than being aquitted would, seriously. Given the choice between pleading guilty to manslaughter and getting paroled in 18 months or spending two and a half years in jail waiting for a trial, many people would choose the shorter sentence.

I suggest watching a great movie staring Stephen Dorph and Val Kilmer, called Felon, which elaborates on this. It is based on a true story.
IcarusATB
Actually, the question mostly came from the PC that I am playing. He's a SINner who was Born Rich and has a Privilegdsd Family Name. The family is known as having severl police officers, and in fact, my character is in Deep Cover working for LoneStar.

This, he maintains two Lifestlyes: one legal, and the other as a Shadowrunner with a go-gang. So, I want him to have everything legal and in order for one persona, and everything faked an spoofed for the other.

There would be LOTS of reasons that a cop would have a legal gun, or drivers license, or permit for an armored vehicle, orwhat have you.

Thanks for all the input and whatnot. I will be able to take a bit of this to my GM, and feel secure about asking for the licenses.

Wade
aka Icarus
Method
Well there again, if you're playing a character with a legit background (like a cop) the license really shouldn't be a huge issue. I'd argue that the prices listed in the BBB are for criminal types. If you're a cop you can probably get weapons cheeper, which would off set the cost of licensure. So if I were your GM I'd just have you pay the list price, grant the license based on the character's background and call it a day.
kzt
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 1 2009, 03:48 PM) *
Security companies can get Restricted gear legally, but not Forbidden. Forbidden stuff cannot be licensed, it can only be carried by legal militaries. That doesn't mean there aren't security companies who use forbidden gear, just that they don't ever do it legally.

No, you misunderstood. You make your runner team a security corp. Hence the Purchase Orders.
Larme
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 1 2009, 05:57 PM) *
I'm speaking of Los Angeles, the City of Angels, not of the State of California. While California does have a Castle Doctrine Law, and is fairly Conservative, that particular city has less admiration for those who use lethal force in self defense than others do, and it tends to have fairly zealous prosecutors, too. So the chances of being arrested aren't low. And while you'd never be convicted at trial, it is also possible that you'd never make bail and with the courts being backed up as they are you could easily find yourself in a situation where pleading guilty would get you less time than being aquitted would, seriously. Given the choice between pleading guilty to manslaughter and getting paroled in 18 months or spending two and a half years in jail waiting for a trial, many people would choose the shorter sentence.

I suggest watching a great movie staring Stephen Dorph and Val Kilmer, called Felon, which elaborates on this. It is based on a true story.


Wrongful imprisonment + unconstitutionally high bail = cha ching! You'd get millions if that kind of bullshit happened to you. There's no way they'd be allowed to set bail higher than you could make if you're an average joe with no criminal record. Not unless you're a hobo with no money at all... LA might be hostile to self defense, but CA luvs them tort claimants.

QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 1 2009, 10:54 PM) *
No, you misunderstood. You make your runner team a security corp. Hence the Purchase Orders.


Well, that's all well and good if you're doing security work. Chances are though, you're doing highly illegal stuff. You might be off the hook for unlicensed possession of restricted gear, but you'd still get slammed with charges for trespassing, breaking and entering, murder for hire, etc...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 2 2009, 01:05 AM) *
Wrongful imprisonment + unconstitutionally high bail = cha ching! You'd get millions if that kind of bullshit happened to you. There's no way they'd be allowed to set bail higher than you could make if you're an average joe with no criminal record. Not unless you're a hobo with no money at all... LA might be hostile to self defense, but CA luvs them tort claimants.


There is a reason why self-defense is called an affirmative defense, the defense has to prove it at trial. It is within the discretion of a prosecutor to make them do so.

And in a homicide case, seriously, high bail is the norm.
http://www.hollisterfreelance.com/news/251...-bail-set-at-1m
I rest my case.

Six-figure bail isn't uncommon in homicide cases, and even high five-figures can be unplayable if you lack collateral or can't afford the 10% cash.

Currently, there are no rules for legal licenses or permits. If I were GM, I'd just handwave it and roll it into Lifestyle.
kzt
QUOTE (Larme @ Feb 1 2009, 11:05 PM) *
Well, that's all well and good if you're doing security work. Chances are though, you're doing highly illegal stuff. You might be off the hook for unlicensed possession of restricted gear, but you'd still get slammed with charges for trespassing, breaking and entering, murder for hire, etc...

It's hard to catch smart people doing bad stuff while they are doing it. It's a lot easier to catch them holding a warehouse full of illegal gear when the cops investigate said crime later. How many runners don't have F gear? If you are a "legitimate businessmen" have a licenses, good reasons to have it and good contacts to help make the cops bug off it's a lot easier for a runner to get away with stuff than if you are a heavily pierced sinless purple mohawk in a leather trenchcoat runner who gets caught with explosives, machine guns, and advanced burglary tools. Of course, the inventory of purple mohawk's stuff is likely to be posthumous too....
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