Hallo everybody
Trolls have a Range mod of+1 this is for their elongated Arms.But what if a Troll has elongated Cyberlegs(Raptorlegs f.E.)
What if he has the Martial Arts Maneuver Kick,that gives Reach +1
Does it add up,does only one Bonus count ?
What if this Troll does a Jump Kick ? does he get Reach +1 for his Legs and/or Reach +1 for the Kick Maneuver ?

with a jumping Dance
Medicineman

sheesh, you've never been one to ask easy questions O.o
Raptor-Legs do not give any reach bonus, they give bonus to kicking damage instead.
Everybody gets reach bonus from kicking, even a dwarf kicking a troll, as per the rules . .
Troll Reach never stacked with kicking reach, as far as i remember, even if their legs are allmost as long as other people are tall . .
For jumping i would use Ramming Damage instead i guess . . maybe falling, damage, but nothing that gives reach because you have effectively turned yourself into a projectile weapon O.o

Dear Friend Stahlseele

I'm talking SR4
Raptorlegs or elongated Cyberlegs are longer.They could give a Troll a Reach +1 Bonus.
the Kick Maneuver also .
I wanted to know wether the two Match with a normal Kick
and/or wether they match with a Jumpkick.not a Jump per Se
only if the two Bonuses match. The Damage (or the Higher Ground Bonus) is not the question

with a matched dance
Medicineman

yes, i know you're talking SR4 O.o
you hardly do anything else nowadays *snickers*
they COULD give a Reach-Bonus, sure, if you wanna rule it that way. But Shadowtech ain't Logitech <.<
After skimming over the SR4 Stuff in those regards, i find nothing that says they do though o.O
Is Jumpkick another Martial Arts Maneuvre? those do stack with each other right?
Wait, normal kick gives +1 reach and there's a martital art maneuvre that is called kick and gives +1 reach also?
ok, i did not understand that before . . that is . . well . . yes . . i guess those would actually stack? two kicks with one leg?
augh, brain hurting now x.x

In the book, it did not mention Raptor cyberlegs having any more reach than normal. My guy with his raptor legs gets the same +1 reach to Kick Attack as anyone else.

There is no jumpkick martial arts maneuver. Kick Attack gives +1 reach to unarmed attacks.

I also don't stack troll reach with kick attack reach, like Stahl mentioned. (We do, however, have a variant of kick attack called Lunging Attack, and this works with arms, as well. Yes, this lets a troll get an extra +1 reach on their punches. This makes much more sense to us, given their longer than average arms and shorter than average legs. As for a dwarf, I also have trouble justifying Kick Attack for them...since they're about as tall as 1 reach. The only way Kick/Lunging attack would work, is if they launched themselves at the enemy.I suppose this is viable, but I admit it's a quality that's a bit touchy, given the fact the game has dwarves, and a tall Ork or Elf will have legs as long as a troll's(their legs are shorter in proportion to the rest of their bodies, remember.) It seems to me they only have Elongated Limbs(arms), since their legs certainly do not look elongated. Those African elves, now, are how I pictured someone with Elongated Limbs(all four.)

The RAW might say otherwise, but I find playing it like this just makes more sense in my head.

My Thoughts were:
Troll Arms Reach +1
Troll legs 0
Troll with elongated Cyberlegs(Raptorlegs) Reach +1
Kick Maneuver +1
SO ....
TrollRaptorKick +2 ?
Jumping Trollraptorlegkick +2 ?
Why yes,why no ?

HopkaHey
Medicinman

Doublepost,sorry

No, Rptors do not give +1 Reach.
Of course, it's your game, if you can swing it by your GM through bribery or something else, more power to you old gamer *snickers*
The only thing coming close to what you want is the telescoping cyberlimb option, and that one, as far as i remember, only states that it NEGATES Reach of opponents and does not give a Reach Bonus to the user . . raptorlegs allready give +2 damage to kicking, isn't that better than +1 to reach anyway?

Also: Elfenrir, are you feeling well? O.o
That's the second time you agreed with me on something *grins*
I ain't used to that really ^^

Well, you and I never seem to really argue, but we just have different views of the game(maybe because I'm sort of settled into SR4 by now? who knows). But yeah, I did notice that. ^^ I mean, you like your trolls, I like my pointy ears(though I like, and play trolls too), but we both seem to be rarities that like the poor dwarves.

But yes, Raptor Legs are not normally Elongated. Now, if they are houseruled to be so(or if there is a houserule for getting elongated cyberlimbs for more cost, perhaps-that might be something to look into, though then you're getting into the realm of Go Go Gadget Legs!) then, I say knock yourself out.

The Reach modifiers stack. Trolls get +1 Reach naturally. Their kick has a Reach of 2, therefore. When they use a Nodachi or a Claymore, they count as having a Reach of 3. Simple.

their ARMS have a Reach Bonus of 1 because they are, compared to other races, elongated.
Their legs, though generally longer than those of other races, are COMPARATIVELY short.
Thus they do NOT gain the Reach . . for capoeira tricks where you do your kicking while in a hand-stand i might see the point . .
but having a huge frigging no dachi in your huge frigging hands on your long frigging arms gets you the usual reach modifier of 3

The rules don't say anywhere that they only get the +1 Reach for stuff in their hands. The rules say that trolls get +1 reach, end of story. Given that a troll's leg is potentially longer than a dwarf is tall, that kinda makes sense to me. That's also why they run faster than other races.

Believe it or not, Stahl, I think by TECHNICAL Raw, a Troll gets a reach bonus for any hit. (Just like in Raw, a Dwarf gets +1 reach for Kick attack).

However, I know MANY people who houserule this. Like you said-in a hand-stand kick I'd count it; but not if the troll were just standing there, not unless a 2.1 meter tall elf or ork, or even human got the bonus too. Likewise, I'd allow a Dwarf to get the +1 if they had plenty of room to launch themselves. It sounds kinda harsh, but my brain just can't understand why a Troll's standing front-kick would get +2 when their legs are about as long as said elf/ork/human that stood 2-meters-ish, and the latter doesn't. Hell, the dwarf reach bit is even harder for me to understand, but I'm willing to fudge it and assume they launch their small bodies forward in a dropkick off the top-rope or something.

Arms though? Oh yeah, trolls have +1 on arms, all the time. In fact, I remember back in SR2 this was even a subject of debate(and where the legs are normal length houserule came in); it actually said in the Troll description ''Really long arms that give them a reach advantage in melee.'' (or something along those lines.)

I don't mind houseruling if it makes stuff a bit more believable in the head. (For example, under RAW, that one basketball player-the 7'8'' fellow, gods, I forget his name, but he was in a movie with Jackie Chan-might not get the extra Reach bonus, but a troll, whose legs are undoubtedly much *shorter* than this guy's, would. Unless some of those basketball players actually might have Elongated Limbs.)

In SR2, though, trolls' movement rate was slower than humans', orks' and elves'. I'd absolutely agree with you about 2E trolls not getting extra Reach with their legs.

In 4E, however, they move faster than any other race -- presumably because they have a longer stride. Even if their legs are in the same proportion as a human's or an elf's, the fact that they're half again as tall is why I think it's OK for them to have long legs.

Raptor Legs are made for running and jumping and, somehow, apparently for kicking. However, the joints are reversed. Imagine trying to kick backward at someone behind you. That is essentially the movement made when Raptor Legs kick. Personally, I don't think they should be able to kick an opponent at all; a Raptor (as in the dinosaur) probably leaped into the air and fell on it's prey, ripping with it's claws; not kicking like a ninja or kangaroo.

Since they get a +2 damage bonus for kicking, I would leave it at that. No extra reach.

for Comparision check You Tube
Bruce Lee vs. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Game of Death
(can't post Link from Work )

a Raptor (as in the dinosaur) probably leaped into the air and fell on it's prey, ripping with it's claws;
Thats the other Trick I want to do with my Char


with an old school Dance
Medicineman

They did seem to change from 2-3(in SR3 they seemed to be of similar build.) I think my brain is just trying to wrap itself around how they changed that much in the past 20 years-usually evolution of body shape, I assume, takes much longer than that(going from their old builds and proportions to ''Really Big Human'' build/proportions, for example.) Then again, with magic and comets involved, I suppose it can be handwaved that they suddenly evolved into the shape they are in in SR4.

Keep in mind I'm usually not a realist-sticker, and have indeed stuck up for the ''odd'' stuff that happens that doesn't make real-life sense. I mean, Trolls don't make real-life sense. I think part of my brain is still stuck in 2053-2060 land, and whenever i picture a troll I end up picturing that guy with the scythe and the ''Kiss Me, I'm a Troll'' pin on his jacket.

As for the shape of Raptor Legs, I always saw them as Satyr-style legs. There was a picture in the SR3 book of an elf and a human running; I recall the human had normal legs with the skates, and the elf raptor-legs, and was running. They seemed like they could be used for kicking quite fine, but again, didn't look any longer than normal.

I have a picture a fellow I know drew of my elf with his Raptor-legs; they are more of the ''anthroform'' style, and his fighting style I guess you can say is similar, but he's more of a tae kwan do/savate specialist, though he's tall and heavy enough to just pounce on someone(and the overblown Strength in them pretty much ensures anyone he lands on is toast anyway.) I'll post a link to it to show how I always pictured those legs.

well . . okay . .

anouther way to look at the static +1 is that combat isnt like a nintendo karita fighting game were you stand there waiting untill someone kicks you then you punch back the combat is a combanation of dodges blocks and punches and kicks the "manuver" you do is the intended attack to connect there for the "longarms" reach apply weather your throwing a haymaker or roundhouse you still get a tacticle or oppresive advantage for you long arms this then combined with the proper kicking form learn to kick better faster and such get a secound reach bonus for a total of +2.... at least thats how i see it

The above post is indeed how I saw combat for a long time in SR; it wasn't guy 1 punches, guy 2 kicks, etc, it's a whole bunch of punches, feints, dodges, knees, etc.

But in THAT case, it sort of makes the Kick Attack ability a bit...vague. Either it assumes your guy does nothing but kick(since combat isn't the mentioned guy 1/guy 2 blow trade), or combat is indeed separate enough to show that guy 1 kicks, guy 2 kicks, and for some reason guy 2's front kick doesn't reach as far as guy 1. (Training or no, about anyone can throw a front kick with a thrust to it. Training makes it easier, due, but a guy with Unarmed Combat 5 and no Kick Attack, I am guessing certainly knows how to throw a proper kick.) Because then, if your guy mixed punches into an unarmed combat match, he wouldn't get the reach...if that makes sense.

I guess in simpler terms, with unarmed combat supposedly being a bunch of fluid maneuvers in one turn, making something that gives a specific bonus to a certain KIND of blow sort of throws a wrench in those gears. Stuff like Sweep can work; you can sweep with more than your leg-hell, you can sweep with a staff or whatever; the Sweep maneuver just means that ''you can do damage on a knockdown. Damage is Stun.) Likewise, +DV to Unarmed/Blades is just general.

In other words, Kick Attack is a damned powerful maneuver; the only time it wouldn't count(if combat is assumed to be several blows), is if someone is sitting down and/or unable to kick at all.

Yeah, come to think of it, while I take it(damned if my super-leg dude won't get the most out of his style and their power), it IS quite an...interesting maneuver in some respects.

If you really want to go for insane reach modifiers, do as follows :

1. Be a troll. Reach +1.
2. Become a sasabonsam. Reach +2.
3. SURGE to get elongated limbs. Reach +3.
4. Wield a sufficiently large weapon, say...a nodachi. Reach +5.
5. Point out to anybody that all these modifiers stack by RAW. Remember to memorize the appropriate rules sections.
6. Cut anybody into bloody ribbons who is making daddy-long-legs jokes about you. Also, get used to wearing normal pants as bermudas.
7. On top of that, be a magician or mystic adept and learn how to throw fireballs. Take the Incantation Geas, shouting "Yoga Flame!" before casting.

If you want to top that, exchange troll for wakyambi but keep the sasabonsam and elongated limbs, get grip feet, additional arms to walk on, learn Artisan (Breakdance) and do kick attacks with dual-wielded monofilament whips with Reach +6.
This should keep you out of reach of fellow players who want to hit you over the head with their rulebooks.

The ability of Dumpshock to come up with twink-tastic characters with such speed is unsettling.

Would a troll with an elephant nose get an additional +1 reach on it?

A troll with a proboscis nose, sasabonsam, Elongated Limbs(hey, the nose can count), and a retractable Monowhip in his nose.

...

<_<

>_>

yep, i feel right at home in here ^^

I'd agree with this interpretation of things. Maneuvers like kick, I think of as that series of feints, maneuvers, blocks and combination that ends with an extended kick for power, sort of how in MMA a muy thai kick might be carried in via a 1, 2, clench knee. I'd say that qualifies as one attack and a kick.

Hell, let the the trolls +1 reach apply to kicking. It isn't like reach actually matters anymore, anyway. Give them +1 reach for sodomy too, while we're at it.

as i said, right at home ^^

Wait, that would imply the troll penis is about a metre long.

so?

Unfortunately, it wouldn't grant an additional +1, but the reach bonus from Elongated Limbs applies to all melee attacks.
So monowhip nose attack it is! ^^



Which, once more, raises the question at what point Penile Implants don't cost, but add capacity.
I think i'm going to houserule that as potential fluff for the Cybertorso Bulk Mod option.