Hello Dumpshockers,

(EDIT TO ADD: Sorry, this is way longer than originally intended...)

I'm still planning my upcoming Shadowrun campaign, and there are a few aspects of both the game and the setting on which I can't make up my mind. Since people have been so helpful with my Sixth World Quebec thread, I figured I'd throw a few more questions at you and see what I get in return.

1) Megacorps enjoy extraterritorial status, but does it extend to their subsidiaries? I.E. are the Stuffer Shack and Weapons World only under Aztechnology and Ares's jurisdiction respectively, or strictly under the local government's jurisdiction, or both? What's your take on this?

2) This is my main area of undecision. I have the main book but I just can't make up my mind on whether I should buy the other books (i.e. Arsenal, Unwired, etc.) I want to keep the game simple and easily manageable, and from my previous experience with Shadowrun back in 2nd/3rd edition, I thought anything beyond the main book and the magic supplement either was overly complicated, made gear lists litterally endless, or some other complexity issue. As of now, I think the game is quite playable with just the core book, and I don't foresee any major complaints from my players. I am interested in Street Magic, but a brief look at Runner's Companion gives me the impression I might only be using the rules for the Infected and Shapeshifters. Will Runner's Companion be worth my money, in your opinion?
And what about Arsenal, Augmentation, and Unwired? I read about Unwired patching a few holes in the matrix rules, although I can't find any major issues with them so far. The "previous edition" equivalent of Arsenal and Augmentation (sorry, can't remember the titles) were the most problematic supplements for me personnally, as they added more rules than I could handle back then (I still shudder thinking about the nanoware rules back then, which required calculating square roots to figure out ratings or something like that...) Also, they added so much new gear that I never bought them simply because there was way more than I could find use for. Again, what are your thoughts?

Keep in mind that my aim is not to restrict the players' options, but rather to apply the KISS principle to my campaign management. Knowing my players, they likely won't complain too much anyways if they can't buy a "beta-grade, rating 3 cyberappendix" or some other very specific piece of gear. I understand that various playing groups will have a different approach to this matter (some will insist on having access to everything, others won't really care.)

Share your thoughts!

Man,
There is probably a canon ruling to question 1 but as far as I play it, no. The shops are on some nations land to do business there. Its not like they leave anything too valuable outside of the keep errrr corporate building.

As to your second question: Everything printed in hardback is worth the money. If your going to have a Hacker, you should get Unwired. The rest of the hard bounds are great and add something but Unwired really explains Hacking to newer players.

AAA and some AA corps have extraterritorality. Whether this extends to their subsidiaries depends on the corporation. Aztechnology is (in)famous for having subsidiaries with no apparent link to Aztechnology. Stuffer shacks are a franchise, so they must follow the rules and regs of the country they operate in. Horizon, on the other hand, clearly "owns" all their subsidiaries, and so their subs enjoy Horizon extraterritorality. It's all in the way the corporation structures things. And each megacorp does it differently... although Aztechnology is probably the best at hiding their ties to subsidaries.

BlueMax raises a good point about Q1.

I'm not really asking for a canon ruling (although if there's one, that's fine.) All I really want is some opinions on how people do it.

Thanks!

1) Corporate Shadowfiles from waaaaaaaay back in 1st Edition does a ridiculously in-depth job of explaining extraterritoriality. Might be worth a read if you can find a used copy. The quick answer to your question is, no, megacorporate subsidiaries do not share extraterritorial status. Employees of Renraku and it's various divisions like Renraku America would be immune from government prosecution while on corporate property, Adams-Westlake Mediaworks employees would not be though they're an owned subsidiary. In the business world there's a distinct difference between divisions, parent companies and a controlled entity.

2) Like BlueMax said, all of the core rule books are worth buying. While they give more gear, spell, program, etc. options I don't think they complicate the game. And all of the rules presented in the other books are presented as optional by design. So you can pick and choose which optional rules you would be comfortable with, if any.

EDIT: I clarify statement 1 further down this thread.

Question 2:

The other books all have their use. Arsenel for the rigger (who would like to outfit the getaway van with pop-up machinegun turrets), Street Magic for the adept/mage (particularly the adept who otherwise sees no point initiating), Unwired for the hacker, Augmentation for the street sam (who's looking for that "one last piece of ware"), and Runner's Companion for those players who are bored with the standard races and looking for something interesting.

The game is runnable and playable with just Core (our group did it back when it came out), but fresh out of a full host of 3rd edition we felt it was lacking some necessary parts. We didn't attempt another game until after Arsenal (I wanted to have mounted miniguns on my van).

All good points, guys, and in an impressively short timeframe!

Now, thinking specifically about the complexity of the rules, are they reasonably manageable? My group can handle basic arithmetics using only their head or a pencil and paper, but we don't really enjoy using calculators. I gave the example of the old nanoware rules and the use of square roots, for instance. Are the optional rules on par with the basics?

EDIT TO ADD: Forgot to mention that financially speaking, I can't possibly buy everything at the same time. So, for starters, what book(s) would you consider must-buys, and which ones can wait, in your own opinion?

All of the math, as far as I'm aware, is basic addition and multiplication.

As for most important books?

Hmm... depends on the players.

I'd say Arsenel is a prime target. The weapon modification rules are quite a bit of fun and can spice up just about any build that plans on carrying a weapon.

Street Magic next, it does to mages and adepts what Arsenel does to guns.

Unwired is good, if you're going to have a hacker, but the hacking rules--even simplified--can be unfun (our group has pretty much done away with hacking as the character who does it does nothing for most of the session and when dealing with him the entire rest of the group gets pizza).

After that, it'd be Augmentation and Runners Companion. Both offer interesting things, but mostly in "alternative character ideas" rather than "neat customizers" and "places to grow."

As to the simplicity aspect, build by BP (its what you will get in the base book anyway). Everything else is pretty simple.

Books to buy: Big Black Book aka Shadowrun 4th edition, Unwired
Books you may want to buy : Arsenal , if you have a gun bunny or like high damage marital arts. Augmentation, if you have a mod junkie. Street Magic if you are running a magic heavy game.
Books to buy after a few games are under your belts: Runner's Companion
What to buy if you have $5? The extension to Street Magic whose name is lost on me right now.

All of the softcover books are fiction-esque and provide color to the game. If you make your own plots, timeline, famous NPCs and so on, wait on or avoid the softcovers.

Digital Grimoire.

Okay, back to question One. I've got my copy of Corporate Shadowfiles in font of me. These are the basics on extraterritoriality and megacorps.

1. A megacorporation has the cashflow and degree of world influence of that of a nation-state and is multinational. There are 25+/- active megacorporations in the Sixth World.
2. Extraterritorial areas must be obviously distinct from surrounding properties. For example, a fenced-in area or the entire floor of an office building can be extraterritorial.
3. The area must be officially and publicly recognized as extraterritorial. A secret megacorp testing facility is not extraterritorial.
4. An area must have an official lease signed by an authorized officer of the corporation. Private homes owned by corporate employees are not extraterritorial.
5. A corporation may not damage the environment of a held area to the degree that it influences the area of someone else.
6. A typical megacorporation has a central "umbrella" corporation that oversees and controls various subsidiary corporations. Each of these in turn comprises several divisions which it controls. Example:

Monobe International <--- the umbrella company, the top of the megacorp (extraterritorial)
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Monobe Biotechnical <--- one of 20 Monobe International subsidiary companies (extraterritorial)
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Monobe World Enterprises <-- one of 10 Monobe Biotechnical subsidiary companies (extraterritorial)
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Monobe UCAS <--- one of Monobe World Enterprise's regional subsidiaries (extraterritorial)
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Monobe Seattle <--- one of Monobe UCAS' regional subsidiaries (extraterritorial)
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Designer Genes, Inc. <--- one of Monobe Seattle's subsidiaries (NOT extraterritorial)

So basically, anything that any Monobe company that had "Monobe" in its name would be extraterritorial. Any without, would not, as they're too far down in the corporate pyramid to qualify.

7. Megacorporations essentially make their own laws and extraterritorial areas are not subject to the laws of a host nation-state. However, a megacorporation is subservient to the rulings of the Corporate Court.
8. "Zero Zones" are a legal quagmire and keep lawyers rich.
9. Extraterritorial areas span from the edges of the land controlled by the megacorp, down to the earth's core forming a cone shape. The area extends up from the earth's surface to a maximum height of 1,200 meters.

1. I'd agree with Synner, if it's a franchise than it's extra-territoriality is in question. I'd also wonder about the public access to the place. So Horizon-Virtual World Disney would be a wholl-owned Horizon territory but I'd imagine they abide by local laws to some extent as a show of good faith but would still prosectute their own criminals and trepassers.

2. The other books, particularly, Street Magic, and Unwired really helped me understand Hacking, and Magic in Shadowrun. They do complicate the rules, no argument but they make seemingly non-sensical things make a whole lot more sense and help you deal with complications that can arrise from just the BBB. Arsenal was just fun and games for all my players who loved the wealth of new gear. IMO the rules don't overly complicate from the additiona of the book, the system maintains its coherence for good or ill (vehicles rules I'm looking at you) with the addition of the new books. I found Runner's Companion is good for you developing metavariants, critter NPCs, and the like but I'm hesistant to let me group have carte blanche from it.

RC, player wise, isn't really overpowered. I built a drake adept (with gun-fu from Arsenel) that came to within 20 BP of where I wanted to start. I was something like 12 BP shy of what I considered the optimal starting spot: 1 more rank in this, that, and the other thing.

Realizing this, I was happy. I'd spent 65 BP on being a drake, and it wasn't likely to actually help me for a long long time.

Which means that I could have had the same character, only better if I'd built him as a troll: attribute bonuses to Str and Bod (though I'd need to spend a fraction of a point of magic on Killing Fists) plus 25 more BP to spend.

It just wasn't as cool as having the potential to turn into a fucking dragon wielding SMGs (and actually being 2 dice better). Gotta solve the "dracoform is squishy" problem first though.

Other races? Pretty balanced, I think. Qualities are interesting and flavorful (-5 BP: Day Job: 10 hours a week, :newyen: 1000 / mo. bonus cash). Advanced Lifestyles: very nifty (who doesn't want a defective Central Home System? "Yes sir, your house is on fire. Anything else you require?"). Group contacts, also neat (who doesn't want to have contacts inside Renraku with connectedness 15?*)

But it is your decision if you want to keep it out of your player's hands.

*22 is the maximum IIRC

Hey, hey! Anyone who has seen Peter and seen me would never mistake the two of us... I'm... I'm... /me goes off muttering



That is my favorite quote, seriously, from lifestyles. Adam Large wrote it. When we had to cut some of the lifestyle qualities, that one stayed in purely for the quote.

*Ears perk*
Oh?

Care to name some cut-ees?

And while I have your attention, care to elaborate on:

What happens to worn armor when a shapshifter who moves from metahuman form to animal/drake form?

How long does the transformation take?

Vigilant Security +1
The guards are more motivated, more equipped, and/or more trained. This raises the professional rating of Security by 1 level.

Wiseman upstairs +1
When you don't know what to do, or just need to talk to someone, there's an available ear in the neighborhood to listen to you. Knowledgeable in some area, the wiseman is also helpful in giving advice on the subject. This could be a retired engineer or the elderly lady with a master degree in chemistry. Gamemaster discretion on the neighbor’s profession, although it should be beneficial to the character.

Lax Security -2
Whether through inexperience or indifference to the character’s home, security is not up to what it should be. The Lifestyle’s security rating is lowered by 1 for the purposes of detecting intruders (Perception and Analyze tests). This can be due to distracted guards, thick foliage that provides good hiding spaces, or obscured camera views around the house.

Roommate from Hell -1
Your roommate is more than just a slob; he or she also borrows your stuff, eats your food, and annoys your friends. If an angry Yakuza hit man comes looking for you, they are likely to give him your commlink number and where you're planning on having dinner that night (alternatively, if a beautiful simstar stops by to ask you for a date, they'll probably forget to give you the message). Edges and Flaws roommates do not contribute to the rent.




If the shifter's Body is greater than the highest Armor value (regular clothing has armor rating 0), then the clothing is ripped apart and destroyed during Shift. If the shifter's Body is lower, then they injure themselves and are entangled in the armor. The DV is equal to the Armor rating. Since shifters regenerate, it isn't a huge issue, but extracting themselves might require some sort of Escape Artist test, or shifting back to human form. And likely is accompanied by much laughter and pointing of onlookers.

And, straight from AH (who swears when my name pops up on IM these days...)

"Hey Bill, ever seen a were-moose in power armor before?" "Ouch, those antlers went right through the helmet. Gonna be a bitch to get that off."

Shifting form should be a single complex action.

AWOL_Seraphim, if you want to save cash (or get more books) and don't mind PDFs, you can get the rule books cheaper and faster by going the electronic route. I have all my SR books backed up on a SD card (and a thumbdrive... and an external NAS drive... and ) so I can carry the rules where ever I go.

1) Answered adequately by previous posters.

2) Only skimmed 1 or 2 previous answers:

• Street Magic will add a significant amount of depth to the Awakened world, in addition to may excellent options for play. If your group, or part thereof, is magically inclined, this book is strongly recommended.
• Unwired is an absolute must if your group will contain matrix-savvy people. Be sure to ensure such players read it thoroughly and have a clear understanding of the matrix. If this area is only to be glazed over in your game, your loss.
• Runners Companion - from a balance standpoint, this book is a steaming pile of shit; very few options are appropriately priced. From a content standpoint, this is probably my single favorite book. Many of the new qualities, put simply, should not exist. At all. Many others, however, are an excellent addition to the game. The first chapter is an excellent read for new players, & useful for veterans. The advanced lifestyle & contact options are well worth it. I am particularly fond of the Infected & SURGE (although many SURGE options are far to anime for my taste).
• Arsenal provides a nice list of new equipment, but the most important parts come in the vehicle & weapon modification rules, advanced combat rules (including Martial Arts), & environmental hazards. Strongly recommended.
• Augmentation. Probably my second favorite, next to Runners Companion, it has a very nice, but not overwhelming list of cyberware & bioware, as well as genetic modifications & nanotech. Highlights are the nanotech & advanced biotech rules - particularly the diseases.

Summary: None of these books are required to play the game, but they all add significant & worthwhile elements to the game. If you can, I strongly recommend getting & using them all, but for new players (& GM), it may be a bit overwhelming at first. If you do not feel up to it, try running a short campaign of ~2 months, then restarting with the new options once everyone is used to the game.

While I don't want to discourage PDF purchases, I found it too expensive. Then again, I am older than dirt and really cherish paper books.

Thanks a bunch.
And amounts to what me and my GM settled on anyway (he knew the shapeshifter fluff of torn armor, etc.) and is allowing me to getting armor specially enchanted to change shape along with me (for the price of a Force 2 Power Foci).

Arsenal is probably the first non-BBB book to get, because it has stuff for everyone.

Runners Companion is good, but if your group has already created characters and understand how the world works, then it's not necessary.

If you are having troubles with the Matrix rules, then there's some matrix stuff by knasser hosted here: http://pavao.org/shadowrun/miscellany/ There's a pdf of example matrix systems, which you might find stimulating.

Wow! That's a lot of replies!

Thanks to all of you who gave input on extraterritoriality. It will be important to my campaign.

As for books, of course, every table has different priorities, but your comments are very helpful. At this point, I guess I'll aim for Arsenal, Runner's Companion (mostly for critter NPCs) and Street Magic, in no particular order. Unwired and Augmentation will definitely come last, since it sounds like my players like the idea of the matrix and cyberware, but not enough to justify buying the books.

By the way, I don't see anything about a "critters book" on shadowrun4.com. With the selection in the core book and what I saw in Runner's Companion, it feels like the selection of critters is, well, minimal at this point. Does anyone know if there are plans for upcoming releases on this subject?

Thanks in advance!

As a matter of fact, I found the web site th eother day and got my hands on a handful of cheat sheets. I took a look at the matrix stuff, but at this point I'm mostly satisfied with the way things are in the core book. The example systems were pretty cool, though.

From here:

Running Wild?

I love the title already! I guess I'll start saving, hehe!

Thanks!

They've been talking about that book since long before Fourth Edition was announced, and it's just never happened. It was to have rules for training critters, as well as be an updated Paranormal Animals of North America. They seeded books with critter teasers: earthquake letting critters escape from a Mitsuhama Parashield facility, and now bio-drones in Augmentation.

Cybertooth Tigers, man: cybertooth tigers.

The selection of critters is tiny. This is particularly hard on some styles of play. You may be able to wait it out till Running Wild with some of the magical threats in Street Magic . They have critter-like aspects.

In the first three editions I ran a game which could be considered akin to D&D of the future. My group is passing time playing at Cyberpunk 2070 patiently waiting for Running Wild.

Since you have found Nasser's page, I recommend reading everything there. Fourth Edition does not have a depth of published examples. I believe there is only one published adventure. While troublesome for folks like me who love reference, its to avoid scale issues. Just here on Dumpshock there are games with wildy varying power levels.

Wow, six more books, all of which look tasty (I particularly am looking forward to that Sixth World Almanac).

And BlueMax, your sig is made of win.

Lol god, I'm sorry Tiger Eyes. I was just looking at the icon as opposed to the name, I do apologise. What happened to your old icon? bring it back! bring it back!!!

Looks like Jennifer went from freelancer to exclusive... Congrats, T.E.!

Yeah, I did ask Adam to get me a Catalyst icon in pink, but he started spouting about gender equality and social rights... men these days...

Haha.

I am from the San Francisco Bay. Pink would be the color of equality and social rights locally. This is not a sarcastic or snide remark.

Yellow ranger, pink ranger, it's all the same to me.

BlueMax,

During the week-end, I've looked at what's available in the core book critter-wise, and I get the feeling one could probably reconstruct "canon" critters using just what's in it. For instance, I made a shapeshifter "grunt" using a wolf, the dual-natured trait and a (Human) Form spell-turned-innate-ability. I also turned the Thunderbird into a home-made Phoenix, a vampire into a banshee, etc. Have you tried that? (I admit they may not be "canonical" but I figure it's close enough...)

And you don't need to feel old just because you prefer print over pdf. I only swear on print copies and I'm (almost) not even 30 (yet...)
(Mind you, I started playing RPGs with DnD back when THAC0 was a new thing... Yes, time flies...)

I admit to doing this already to some degree. I just add spirit powers and beef up stats. But my mind is just one. And one that works too much. So , I would love to see the results of someone who is payed to come up with critters.

Someone who understands the system better than I do.

I love the giant mother fragging snake in the back of Ghost Cartels.