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Browncoatone
So I was looking for a target for a run that would be capable of surviving a car wreck and being too heavy, cumbersome or difficult to transport on foot under fire. I naturally thought top secret experimental drone prototype. Then I went looking for a basic chassis to pervert to my purposes but haven't be able to determine one important aspect from their stats: How much does that drone weigh?

Is there a formal (or even informal) drone body to weight ratio?
Ryu
There is a freestyle size class, medium drones go up to motorbike size. Already annoying large if they are not moving on their own. Large drones start at motorcycle size. No guidance on weight, but two street sams with augmented strength or a mage with levitate will have no issues. (Tominos are large drones and weight 250kg+.)

You could of course judge the drone to be entangled into the car wreck. The easiest way to achieve that is putting a smallish medium drone into a drone rack, which is then deformed during the crash.
Naysayer
I'm sorry I can't help you on the drone-weight thing, but you could go for an anthroform drone, or even a (*deactivated*) full-cyborg shell. You'd still have to wing it, but you would have standard metahuman weight as a baseline and only need to add what you think the 'ware would weigh. (Isn't there a even short blurb about how much a cybertorso adds to your weight? Need to check...).
This way, you'd have the added bonus of having the "empty shell" suddenly crawl out of the car-wreck, punch a semi-truck to death and then turn out to be an emotionally confused and unstable eight year old...

Other fun heavy things to steal:
An old (like 20th century safe)
A cryogenic tank containing the body of an old billionaire
A man-sized statue of a man (who my or may not be the victim of a petrify-spell=
Stephen Hawkings wheelchair
James T Kirks captain's chair
The Lunar Rover
The collar-bone of a dragon
This is getting silly
hobgoblin
heh, how about a refrigerator sized computer?
Ryu
Industrial Machinery Prototypes - see "Nanoforge (large)" - can fill a whole truck.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 13 2009, 10:43 AM) *
a mage with levitate will have no issues. (Tominos are large drones and weight 250kg+.)

biggrin.gif A threshold of 7+ with no problems, so the mage would have to have a dicepool of 21+ eek.gif
Ryu
We´ve run it without adding OR so far, you are correct. Levitate is no RAW solution for most mages, at least not without spending edge.
Dakka Dakka
Yup OR according to RAW is pretty crippling for mages. I prefer to only use OR on damaging spells and those that explicitly mention it in their description.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 13 2009, 01:56 PM) *
We´ve run it without adding OR so far, you are correct. Levitate is no RAW solution for most mages, at least not without spending edge.

Couldn't the mage use magic fingers combined to his/hers own strenght?
pbangarth
The Spell Table at the back of Street Magic, page 187 ff., explicitly states which spells require beating the Object Resistance threshold. Levitate is not one of them.
Ryu
At least the spell description from the German main book does, though. I fully agree with not considering OR on that spell, so all is good. smile.gif
pbangarth
Perhaps levity is a scarcer commodity in Germany, Ryu, and therefore the German edition incorporates an extra-heavy resistance. wink.gif
ornot
I think it depends on how lucky your mage is too. The mage in my group is fiendishly lucky, often rolling critical successes on 4 dice. The hacker is pretty much as bad... last session she rolled 15 hits on 20 dice (vehicle damage resistance test. I thought my AV rocket would cause some pain, but nooooo). By contrast, I can critically glitch on 10 dice with sufficient regularity that my players actually take my appaling luck into account when coming up with plans.
Dakka Dakka
Wieder eine Verschlimmbesserung der deutschen Redaktion.

Sorry for writing german.

@Ornot: Maybe you could use a dice roller for a change, or even better use it even for the players' rolls.
Ryu
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Feb 13 2009, 05:04 PM) *
Perhaps levity is a scarcer commodity in Germany, Ryu, and therefore the German edition incorporates an extra-heavy resistance. wink.gif

We await the coming of a new main book (and tons of other translations). The days of odd deviations will soon be gone.
AllTheNothing
Would multiple levitate spells stack?
I don't think it would be unbalancing, the caster should make multiple drain resistance tests and (unless he/she uses sostaining foci) the sustaining penality is going to stack producing dimiscing returnes.

AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 13 2009, 05:34 PM) *
We await the coming of a new main book (and tons of other translations). The days of odd deviations will soon be gone.

Define "odd deviations" pleas.
Ryu
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Feb 13 2009, 06:00 PM) *
Define "odd deviations" pleas.

Liberties taken in "translation"&editing resulted in a certain number of rule changes. Things like the exclusion of vehicles and weapons from the Diagnostics sprite power, the removal of the option of increasing an AoE on spellcasting, a restriction of (skill rating) to DIY gear and program ratings, the addition of questionable spells (Aspected Mana static)...
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 13 2009, 07:07 PM) *
Liberties taken in "translation"&editing resulted in a certain number of rule changes. Things like the exclusion of vehicles and weapons from the Diagnostics sprite power, the removal of the option of increasing an AoE on spellcasting, a restriction of (skill rating) to DIY gear and program ratings, the addition of questionable spells (Aspected Mana static)...

eek.gif Aspected Mana Static?? ohplease.gif If it does what I think it's an orribly overpowered spell.
Dumori
It does do what you think it dose plus for toxic mages its works most of the time as a very good mana static as well. The best spell not in the core book wink.gif
Whipstitch
How about a (temporarily?) catatonic cyberzombie, genetically modified paracritter or biodrone prototype with Astral Hazing and a severe illness/malfunction that required sedation? Or maybe just make it a large shipment of modified Haven Lily? None of these things would necessarily have to ever actually threaten your players; just let them be really unwieldy to handle and have natural magic damping in order to help eliminate the Levitate/Spirit options. You also get the bonus of the players soiling themselves everytime one of their charges so much as yawns. Taking too long on the run could result in a pair of pissed off, heavily cybered barghests tearing their way out of the van. biggrin.gif


I know none of that really helps, it's just how my mind works. Also, one of my players actually had the gall to say the last run was "almost too easy," so I've been plotting how to use just about every GM trick short of "Rocks fall, everyone dies" on them over the next month.
Ryu
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 14 2009, 04:43 AM) *
I know none of that really helps, it's just how my mind works. Also, one of my players actually had the gall to say the last run was "almost too easy," so I've been plotting how to use just about every GM trick short of "Rocks fall, everyone dies" on them over the next month.

Can we help? Please? For free and all that? vegm.gif
Whipstitch
Actually, I settled on barghests already once it occurred to me that the rigger likes to physically drive his rig meatside whenever possible. After all, it's hard to drive when a barghest is howling in the back.
Knight Saber
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 13 2009, 08:59 AM) *
At least the spell description from the German main book does, though. I fully agree with not considering OR on that spell, so all is good. smile.gif


In that case, bring along a wooden forklift pallet, have the party wrestle the item onto it and levitate the pallet!
Ryu
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 15 2009, 01:53 AM) *
Actually, I settled on barghests already once it occurred to me that the rigger likes to physically drive his rig meatside whenever possible. After all, it's hard to drive when a barghest is howling in the back.

I would predict two sleeping barghests instead of two howling barghests. Or have you found a way to justify a "delivered awake" requirement?
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 15 2009, 01:53 AM) *
Actually, I settled on barghests already once it occurred to me that the rigger likes to physically drive his rig meatside whenever possible. After all, it's hard to drive when a barghest is howling in the back.

The rigger could just jump in into the vehicle and have his/hers ears feedback removed, if cyberears are present they can be turned off, or they can be set to cut off the feed, record it and raplay it realtime, turning it into an AR feed; than again why would the runners leave the bargests awake? Even without the howling it would just make the thing more complicated (as it has already been pointed out).
Whipstitch
The barghests will already have been under sedation for an unknown period when they capture them. They can risk dosing them again with whatever they have on hand if they like, (which is probably the smart move). but the idea is to bring the things in alive. Unfortunately for the group, they depend almost entirely on a Street Doc contact for their medical treatment, so none of them really have the know how to keep a few hundred pound paracritter knocked out short of just shooting them with gel rounds or slapping a tranq patch on it and praying. Second, the Rigger doesn't have cyberears (nor would I let the realtime recording trick work; cyberears are paid for with essence and effectively are your ears. The whole idea just doesn't really pass the sniff test for me. You're stuck relying on sound dampening mods just like anyone else.) and I'm fine with him avoiding the problem if he's smart; I'm not interested in no win scenarios, just cramming as many potential points of failure as possible. Third, the negative effects of Paralyzing Howl actually hits your reaction score for a few minutes; if you've heard it, the damage has been done. I also think it's a partly psychological effect due to past fluff and the fact that it's resisted by will, so while I would let you jump in and control your vehicle mentally while paralyzed, I would still hold you to your scared-out-of-your-gourd-by-magic ability score for the purposes of making any test in the meantime. This is unfortunate considering that Vehicle tests use your reaction pool.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 15 2009, 08:28 PM) *
This is unfortunate considering that Vehicle tests use your reaction pool.

Not when jumped in.
Whipstitch
The book says you use your own attribute+skill for tests while jumped in. And it's a vehicle test, which uses Reaction, not Response, so I don't necessarily see why Intuition would be swapped in here. Of course, it probably helps that I always figured that Reaction has to do with how quickly your brainstem can get its act together as much as it has to do with how quickly your mucles fire, so it never really hit me as a contradictory concept. If you're wondering how Intuition fits into Initiative scores in such a world view, I just always figured that Intuition means you're better at well, making intuitive leaps. You react to sounds and ambushes more quickly because you're more likely to realize what they mean before anyone else does.
Ryu
A jumped-in vehicle test is usually based off Response. Perception and Attack are based of Sensor.

Reaction does not figure into jumped-in driving at all, and you are forced to use dodge instead of vehicle skill for full defense.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 16 2009, 05:17 AM) *
A jumped-in vehicle test is usually based off Response. Perception and Attack are based of Sensor.

Reaction does not figure into jumped-in driving at all, and you are forced to use dodge instead of vehicle skill for full defense.


Response is actually only used for determining Initiative and Pilot Common Sense tests when it comes to drones. A drone driving itself doesn't ever roll Response+Pilot for basic maneuvers, it rolls Pilot+Handling or Pilot+Maneuver+Handling. The book says drones essentially sub in Pilot for attributes and Autosofts for skills, then when you rig, you use your own abilities. I mean, hey, maybe you guys are right, but if so, I'd appreciate some book examples, (particularly what exactly is supposed to make up your dice pool while rigging so I know what the hell it is I'm supposed to be rolling) or at least an instance in Shadowrun history in which Rigger characters don't prize Reaction above other attributes (and remember, even back in the pre-Sr4 days, Quickness still counted for determining your Reaction when rigging.) I mean, historically, rigging works by highjacking the part of your brain that's completely dedicated to your "twitch" responses and coordination. Did they errata this stuff in or something? I only have my old first run book these days.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 16 2009, 12:25 PM) *
Response is actually only used for determining Initiative and Pilot Common Sense tests when it comes to drones. A drone driving itself doesn't ever roll Response+Pilot for basic maneuvers, it rolls Pilot+Handling or Pilot+Maneuver+Handling. The book says drones essentially sub in Pilot for attributes and Autosofts for skills, then when you rig, you use your own abilities.


You use Response because it has to do with how quickly the drone can respond to your twitch actions.
Whipstitch
Good news, bad news. The original rules say I'm right. The errata changes everything. Whatever. Good to know, I guess.
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