So I'm making a cyber commando type character. Breaks into a place, hacks the system, leaves with the only proof being some broken glass and a few knock out darts. What I, and my gm were wondering, is how do you guys decide damage in a normally fatal sneak attack. Basically what I'm asking is if I sneak up on someone with my knife drawn are there any rules for slitting throats? What if I get them in a choke hold first and then do it or snap their neck? I've never played a stealthy character before and I cant find these rules in the core book, just the one that says they can defend against the unknown attack. Usually these would be instakills but how do you do it?

While you Sneak on an Opponent You aim for a few Seconds (aiming bonus), Sneak on Him(Reflexroll Victim or no Defense ; Surprise Round) then a called Shot for More Damage or to avert his Armor ,thats the Sneak Attack.If this doesn't Kill him outright,roll normally for Initiative (the already wounded Victim should be second) and repeat the Called Shot/Attack but without the aiming Bonus
Them's the Rules

with a sneakdance
Medicineman

there's the monofilament garotte too . . pretty usefull for that ^^

Ok, I was just wondering if maybe someone had come up with some house rules for doing close up sneak attacks that usually end in death. Now that I know that wouldnt it just be safer to get a dart gun and knock em out then trying to sneak up on them?

Read about that while flipping through Arsenal I believe but I havent had a chance to pick up the book.

Another question I have is that I made a combat medic mage a while ago and while the game it was in died I recently got into another game and want to remake it since I dont have to limit myself so much. Do you think assensing would be a good skill to take or is their some tech that could do the same job for cheaper?

I use Houserules only if the oficial ones are broken or to complicated.The Rules as they are do pretty Good by themselves

wouldnt it just be safer to get a dart gun and knock em out then trying to sneak up on them?
Thats for You to decide. Close Combat is always a little trickier than Sniping your Target

Do you think assensing would be a good skill to take
For a medical Mage ?
Of Course As it helps you finding out about sicknesses and poisoning,etc

HokaHey
Medicineman

Ill think about that one then, may just decide to get a dart gun.

Yes I realize its useful, its quite obvious. What I'm asking is if there are medical devices that can do the same or near the same for cheaper.

Yea, it is not nearly as fast or accurate, but there is. Its called a... biomonitor.

Not that I've personally experienced it, but recorded experience indicates that cutting someone's throat is really noisy. dart guns, or a fast-acting drug patch on the skin would be much better.

Oh, lol. Well since there doesnt seem to be much info on medical tech in shadowrun I was wondering how much a fulling stocked mini hospital would run for? I mean like hjacking a shipment meant for docwagon and using it to stock your own hospital for the less fortunate and fellow runners.

Another thing that ive been talking to my gm about but neither know how to do is how would it look on paper to bribe a gang of ghouls (or something similar) in exchange for meat from no longer needed limbs to gangers we killed then I took back to the shop to have stripped for organs/implants. Would it be something you could do at chargen (cuz he would allow it since im starting as an older character with a well set up shop) or would it need to be done someway through the game.

Dart gun it is then, I would think a light semi auto pistols would do the best but for a quick and unexpected approach could it also be a hold out?

Actually there is a whole crap ton of information on medical tech and medicine in Shadowrun. Pull out your copy of Augmentation and flip through to page 118. The name of the chapter is... don'don'donnnn... "Advanced Medtech". Page 124 list the cost of varies medical facilities from a Med Station all the way up to a Facility. It also goes on to list exactly what is in an example hospital (Tacoma General) at a little over 1.5 million.

For silent takedowns, how about sneaking up, subduing combat, and a hypodermic of narcojet in the neck. For silent kills there is the classic garotte (regular or monowire), as well as a neck snap. I believe there are rules in Arsenal for doing physical damaga in unarmed, surprise attack + subduing combat + physical damage=broken neck. As for throat slitting it is highly effective, if messy. It was a tactic of focus in the WWII Fairbairn-Sykes commando course. For the throat slitting attack: aiming + surprise attack + called shot for damage/armor= cleanup on aisle 5.

Huh, thanks for that. I will have to go pick up a copy then since I could really use the info. What about the second part of that question? About paying off ghouls for protection with body parts from downed targets and the like. In case your wondering the back of my characters bulldog is part ambulance but also has a nifty storage container for bodies we throw in there if we have the time to grab a few as extra income so the meat will be pretty fresh.

That sounds good. I think I may go with the dart gun though since it would be easier and I could get off a couple of narco jet shots before they would know I was there. Cant think of many things that can take that much stun damage.

How much security do you think would protect a transport of medical supplies and what kind of repercussions would you expect if they found out who did it?

Silent kills have been a problem for as long as SR has been around. I remember back in the SR2 days how Food Fight ground to a halt when the GM and a player got into a big argument about whether or not a player character walking in through the front doors directly behind one of the bad guys once the firefight had already started should be allowed to break the bad guys' neck or not.

I have only one real-life experience of coming up behind an opponent in combat. He was beating a woman who was down on the sidewalk; I told a passerby to call 911, then told him to stop, then (when he didn't stop) pinned him. He was nutso and not very aware of me, and not as big as me, so I quickly pinned his arms long enough for the woman to get away... but it wasn't exactly as easy as, say, attacking a mannequin; he was in motion. I'm sure it's best simulated with some kind of dice pool test, not an automatic success. Perhaps a test that anyone with decent AGI and a level or two of Unarmed Combat could generally handle, but there's always that chance of glitches.

Would a person (eg guard) hit with a dart or capsule round or DMSO squirt have a moment to shout or scream before passing out? I'm inclined to think yes. For a silent knockout, maybe strangle hold is the way to go; or knockout gas so that they don't notice anything hitting them, and even then, guards may have biomonitors.

If one is willing to kill the victim and leave a mess, then a headshot with a silenced handgun (headshot simulated as 4 dice penalty for +4 DP) might work as well or better than throat-slitting. A spirit service of Concealment might help.

Incidentally, in the RL incident, I stopped him from hurting her any more (my main goal) without doing him any major harm (not going vigilante), but then I had my hands full of random scruffy loonie shouting at me, which was awkwards. But it ended OK.

First of all answering the first two embedded questions: Shadowrun does not do anatomy. It means that every knife works the same way from a K-bar that can pierce every bone in your body to a stiletto where you have a few hours to realise something has gone horribly wrong as your internal cavities fill with blood.

For your third question: I would rule that you have to do an infiltrate and if successful you have an instakill possibility. You gain +4 for your roll and he or she gets one roll to notice and fend off the attack, before you kill the person. For added difficulty in kills you could get a -1 for each size difference (human vs elf same size - no minus) (elf vs troll -1) (trolls vs dwarf -2).

For the question and comments in the thread based on your first sentence: If your GM wants to be sadistic (and who doesn't), certain items can be ruled to go first before the effect of your Borneo trip inspired poison dart. The certain items include performance enhancing drugs (e.g., kamikaze), augmentations (e.g., adrenaline pump), as well as nanites.

Instakills are shady area, IMO-if the PC's can use them, so can the NPCs, and no one wants that.

Surprise attacks are quite dangerous, but unless you are packed with unarmed damage and it's Physical(I would also rule for a neck snap, Hardliner Gloves do not count for this, and I'd even be a bit shaky on allowing bone lacing to count for this since that depends more on impact, though I suppose having a harder bone against someone's neck might count for something.) But say your guy has strength 5, +2 DV unarmed, and Ceramic Bone Lacing, that's 7P base damage. If Bone Lacing didn't count, that's 5P. Now, they don't get a dodge on surprise-they just get body/armor to resist. If your guy is an elf, he could always have Carromeleg, which gives +2 dice to Surprise Attacks(but you'd need to take another one to get the extra damage, which, with either blades or unarmed, is a very good idea here.)

Now, with a knife, a good fineblade and a martial art combo that gives you another couple DV to knives could get that thing's damage up to around a similar area(Str/2+2 for a Longblade, and in the above situaiton, that and +2 DV would also give 7P...which is an advantage if bone lacing doesn't count in a choke, which IMO, is up to the individual GM.)

In either way, it's a good chance you can get the instakill, but you'd need, in the event of 7P, a minimum of 3 net hits to get the kill. Even 9P means they are still alive, and while you can probably slip a knife in their ribs the next round, they may well may have called for help at that point and your silent kill is borked. Edge, of course, can help this a lot if you only have to do one a week or so.

IMO, though, the Monofilament Garrote is probably your safest way. That thing is a lot of damage(8P BASE) for the least effort. Unfortunately, there is no martial art currently that is ''+1 DV on Monofilament Weapons.''

In trianing ops and live ops a throat sliting means hand over throat pull back the head. Drag the knife through 1 or both major arteries and the wind pipe. On live enemy combatants their is only a miniscule amount of sound because your support the body on the way down and they make little to no sound through their mouths. Now in shadowrun none of this matters because an unresisted knife thrust with spec ops level combat skills and attributes will kill an average person instantly.

Still, though, one has to remember the fact that there is randomness. I've seen die pools of 16+ fail. (This is why you don't want to dump Edge.)

Even worse, could be the glitch. Unless you cut glitches out of your game(which some folks do), that 16+ die pool could nail 4 successes and 4 1's...which means that while it's probably a kill indeed against an average assassination target(which tend to be old guys in suits if you believe all the movies ), something goes awry during it. (though if I were GMing that situation-and I do use glitching-I'd probably be fairly kind, and have maybe a hidden biomonitor on the fellow, which would be going off, simply making the assassin have to haul his behind out of there a bit faster.)

I'd rule that suceeding on the surprise test means a silent kill. Sure, if you go into combat with a guy, but he makes the surprise test, he can shout and resist and make a racket as he goes down (assuming you kill him anyway), but if you surprise him, then he's too dumbstruck by the sudden and unexpected brutal force that he can't even muster a "last word".

I would just think about how important it is. If it's some mook and not pivotal to the immediate scene, I'd probably let it slide with a good stealth and attack roll. If the character is, as we put it, "suspiciously well drawn" then you get to earn it the hard way.

I like this method, actually. Sneaking up on Redshirt #3 successfully....yeah, the knife goes into his artery. But yeah, CEO of Corp X is going to take a good roll(to even sneak up on, of course, and you damn well are going to have to earn that kill via hits.)

You allow Instant Kills by PCs, that means NPCs can make them too. Perform one on the PC who keeps asking for them a game or two after you finally let him start. He'll loose it, but then you can tell him "It's your fault for keeping at it till I added an instant kill house rule".

PCs can not get special rules that only they can use.

Rather than unpleasantly spring it on a PC without warning, I'd warn them that NPCs could have access. I would also say that sometimes-fun rules out over all, and having a PC die like that is Not Fun, and Fun at the table is my final decision if I decide who can use what houserule. I'd make sure that:

-They have several chances to get out of it somehow.
-They can get fair warning.
-The killer would not be a sniper, mage, nor ranged combatant.
-That the PC actually did something to warrant a bounty on his head.
-That the PC KNEW they have a bounty on their head(which means, I'd hope they take precautions.)

I have a problem with unpleasantly cheesing PCs just because they request something that could well be done with a lucky roll. I did mention above-yes, the NPCs can get them, but I wouldn't make the situation an impossible escape. Again, I'd make sure that the above points would be in play.

OK, first off, instant kills are already in the system.

Sniper Rifle with Ex-Ex ammo: 8P, -5 AP. Called shot for +4 damage. Smartlink. Rifles specialisation. Aim for 3 rounds. Skill of 5. Agility of 7. No defence roll.
Attacker rolls 15 dice, gets 5 hits on average. Target resists 17P damage, at -5AP. Someone in an Armour Jacket with Body 4 is rolling 7 dice, for an average of 2 hits, leaving with them with 15 damage, which fills up their physical condition monitor and their overflow monitor, leaving them very dead.
By the same numbers you can leave a target on 14 damage using the monofilament garrotte.

Yes, it has a chance of failing, but so do real life headshots. The skull is actually quite tough. Even then, just 11 damage leaves the target down and dying.

And do I do this to my PCs? Hell yes. Last week's session the Street Sam was very nearly one shotted by a sniper. That's why there are rules for burning edge to stay alive; because this is a game where one shot kills are a reasonable possibility, and the designers included a mechanic to let PCs get out of them.

Shadowrun is a game where you are always watching your back, because a lot of the time you won't even know that you pissed someone off until after they've tried to kill you. It's a game of underworld politics, double crosses, shady deals, and blood vendettas. That doesn't mean every NPC in my games is a dick, or a traitor, but if they're involved in the Shadows then you can bet they have more than a few skeletons in their closet.

Umm...why not?

I don't bother to give my mook NPCs Edge, as an example.

There are also other uses are available to you. You can slip into dual mode and get an idea of what the Johnsons or contacts or NPCs mood is. That is of course if you do it right and aren't to obvious about it.

Maybe I played to much FS, but a Mook does not count as a fully fleshed NPC. Are there things that you let the PCs have and do that you do not let your fully fleshed out NPCs have and do?

I didn't want to get into gory details, but this is incorrect. slitting their windpipe means all the air escapes through the hole you just made. it creates a rasping sound as they continue to try to breath.

Everyone on this forum knows about opening arteries and puncturing lungs, and I'm pretty sure that everyone and their grandma has at some point in time when they were a kid gotten their mitts on a copy of something written by Rex Applegate that they subsequently fantasized about till they hit puberty.

...that's why we have this problem when players want to be able to WTFPWN someone by silent kill but the GM realizes that it could be a disaster to allow for that for the various reasons outlined in this thread.

Why I had an NPC who could insta kill the pcs in a straight fight whith his mono-whip. He rolled 32 dice with it. How ever I felt he was fair game. And the lived one burnt edge the others keeper away and shoot him to bits. A few needed a few weekes to recover but they killed him. Insta kill rules arnt needed it just how you discribe the kill. One could slit a through or stab a heart. But it would come down to the dice, not handwaving.

Dragging the blade across the throat is very hollywood and could easily result in an overanxious person cutting themselves. Insertion of the blade into the throat through the side helps prevent the possiblity of cutting ones self. The victim will even help to pull the blade forward they've found.

Well in my games I do allow special rules for the PC's because they are supposed to be larger-than-life badasses akin to their silver-screen inspirations.

Something else to remember is that melee is much weaker than guns because melee takes a complex action. Accounting for over flow you need to 14-16P to out right kill a non-cybered pinky. Consider that event the softest of targets walking around in town in 2070 will have a BOD + armor around 6 you will be thowing around 16 dice after the called shot with a mono-whip to /expect/ a one IP melee kill. With a gun though get 2 attack in one IP and bursts for gops of damage. Any runner should be able to short+long someone in the back of the head for an easy IP kill. Where am I going with all this? If a play manages to close to melee range on an aware target will all there runner gear the target is hosed. If enjoys knife kills as there flavor of hosing give it to them. Mechanically I'd rule that if this was a players shtick, and closed un-noticed. on a barely armored target that the guy is dead. Make them roll to see if they glitch and that's about it.

You don't need 14~16P damage, 10P on an average target and their dead. Look at it like this, a decently strong Sammy (STR 7) with a Long Fineblade and Arnis De Mano (+1 Blade DV) will do 7P. With a called shot for damage, that becomes 11P/-1AP. For dice pool, we'll give the Sammy a AGL of 7, Blades (Knife) 3(5) and a Personalized Grip. Thats a DP of 9 (13-4), plus any aiming time.

On an attack from behind, the target can't defend. Lets say Sammy doesn't take the time to aim and just stabs for the kill. He'll get 3 successes on average, for 14P/-1AP damage. Figure an average target with 3 BOD and 6 Impact, he will be rolling 8 soak dice. We'll round up and give him an average of 3, so he takes 11P damage. That puts him into overflow, which is followed by the Sammy twisting the knife on his next action for the kill. Total time is less than 3 seconds if Sammy has any kind of IP boost.

I could have actually made Sammy even worse too. STR 9, AGL 9, Mono-Sword, Both types of martial arts (for +2 Blade DV), Blades (Sword) 5(7), and a Personalized Grip would net him a DV of 10P/-1AP (14P/-1AP on called shot) and a DP of 17 (13 on called shot).

In my campaign I would allow a character (PC or otherwise) to make a called shot subduing attack. The called shot would be to increase the damage of subdual.

Therefore, with -4 Dice for +4 Damage (a rule, btw, that I only allow on suprice attacks) would do STR+4 Damage round after round. With the successful subdual, if the victim can't break out, then he is choking with an inability to speak...that is...until he passes out (or dies if held long enough).

Well, if we are to believe Christopher Lee, stabbing a man in the back is pretty damn quiet, with the most you get being a surprised quiet 'ah!'

(He shared this bit of information in the DVD extras of Lord of the Rings, where the director wanted him to yell and carry on when his character died from being backstabbed. Lee objected, relating the above information. He refused to divulge exactly HOW he knew this, but it is probably significant that he did serve as an intelligence officer and special operative during WW2)




-karma

Long skinny 'Fairebanks' type dagger most likely, however a good clean shot into the lungs is very hard i'm told. Which is what i'm assuming the damage might be aimed at.

Rampant pointmissage. The point is that any able bodied shooter can fill someone's stun and over flow track pretty easy in 1 IP, and your sam with 2 super human stats could not. My point before that one even, was that from a balance perspective hand waving stealth kills from melee is a non issue.

Actually I have almost never seen a Sammy without at least a 7 STR and AGL. Pretty darn easy to get.

And my point was you were figuring damage had to be far higher then it did. Also guns are *NOT* quiet. Even with a silencer we're talking a hearing roll with a -4. Any person with decent INT, Perception, and listening bonus gear will still pull a couple of successes against that.

Slight digression but how loud is a well suppressed .22 pistol? When talking about silent kills my first thought was a couple of .22 shots to the back of the head.

For a melee stealth kill you could try one of these.
First, the approach:

• Agility+Infiltration vs. Intuition+Perception
• If the target spots the PC, roll Initiative.
• If the target glitches on the Perception check, handle the situation as a surprise check (p. 155, SR4), giving the target the +3 DP modifier.
• If the target fails on the Perception check, then no defense is possible (p. 151, SR4)

From this point there are a few options. (Always applying a Called Shot around the Target's Armor.)
A) Make your standard attack(Initiating the choke) and follow with an immediate, Finishing Move maneuver attack(sinking the choke).
B) Set-Up maneuver(sneaking up for the choke) to add extra dice to the following Finishing Move maneuver attack(sinking the choke).
C) My personal favorite, use a Sweep maneuver attack to choke the target to the ground and follow up with an immediate, Finishing Move maneuver attack to sink the choke.

Note: You can turn any of these from a choke to a neck snap with the Killing Hands adept power or the Vicious Blow martial arts maneuver.

Remember overflow. 8 + 5 + BOD/2 = 14-16P w/o cyber limbs. That is what is required for instant kill in 1 IP. There is really big differance between mostly dead and really dead. Your character optimized for melee had to take a round to "twist the blade". That means that a specialized (as opposed to maxed) melee fighter can't actually instant kill reliably, where as the non optimized shooter just goes bang-bang and the target flops. Now sure, as you point out, there are totally 400BP characters that can whip cars in half, but that is besides the point. The point is that it is fare fare easier to instant kill with a gun, and I am of the opinion that if players what flavor text on there stealth kill other than a shooting let them have it. Or at least don't act like it's a balance issue.

A built in silencer is -6.

A sniper at reasonable range with normal levels of background noise will require a Perception(2) Test at -11. Most NPC's won't even get to roll at that level.

Yes yes, and a built in silencer with electronic firing is -7. Snipers are not quiet in the realm of what we were talking about. Something more along the lines of silent kills inside of buildings or close range. As for taking two IP to finish off the target, just take the "Finishing Move" martial arts maneuver. Actually it would fit in right for a silent kill.

Also, I never said that guns are not easier to use. In SR, the same as RL, it takes far more skill to kill unarmed/with melee then it takes to shoot someone.

Finishing move still costs you 2 IPs.


But that said I don't think we're even in conflict here. I maintain that while I melee kills like we're talking about are possible they require almost crippling levels of over specialization. Magic and guns have /easily/ achievable 1 IP kills and I don't think it's a balance issue to throw melee a bone in this case.

Also to add. Guns take 1 stat and (ammo and type of weapon) to boost your damage output. Melee takes 2 stats if you want to bring the hurt. Melee does need a bit of help in the end when you factor in everything. The only real difference in the end is you can stack a lot onto melee, but hell magic or a bullet will always get you farther.

I'd consider allowing Vietnam-era silent kill/sentry elimination techniques to work barring a glitch if the player brought a collection of Vietnam era pop rock music and had it playing in the background.

neck breaking, and edged weapons would probably not make too much noise, but smashing someone with a stick might actually make more noise especially smacking someones armor. A called shot to the neck with a staff or any blunt weapon would certainly take someone down w/o much noise. Cracking someone over the head is called cracking for a reason (aka it makes noise.) Blackjack could work.... huh.... well in the end it is the GMs call. If you invest over twice as much points to get half as much bang for your buck then I'd allow silent take downs. Although what do people think about troll bows? I would probably say silent take down if you can called shot them... however the arrow will probably travel through the person and the wall behind them....