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Dakka Dakka
Usually it is clear. A bonus gives extra dice for a test with no limitation and an increase in an attribute raises said attribute up to of the augmented attribute maximum.

There are however several phrasings in the various rulebooks that got me thinking:

"The character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending against ranged and melee attacks." (Combat Sense SR4 p. 187) - no cap, I presume, even if the attribute is superfluously mentioned.

"Titanium bone lacing confers a bonus of +3 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests." (Bone Lacing SR4 p. 333) - I guess it's the same as above. Again the mentioning of the attribute is unnecessary and misleading.

"Each level increases the attribute by one." (Improved Physical Attribute SR4 p. 187) - Obviously subject to the cap.

"Add the rating of reaction enhancers to a character’s Reaction attribute" (Reaction Enhancers SR4 p. 334) - Same here.

Now it gets tricky:
"The move-by-wire system confers a bonus of +2 to the character’s Reaction attribute," (Move-By-Wire System Augmentation p. 41)

So is a bonus a bonus, or is it only a bonus if this bonus does not always apply?
Gawdzilla
My understanding is that if it always applies, and it is not specified that it is just a dice pool bonus, that it counts as an attribute/skill increase subject to the cap. If the bonus always applies, for all intents and purposes it is the same as raising the attribute or skill. Whether they call it a "bonus" or an "increase", I'm fairly certain, is irrelevant semantics.
Jaid
in other words, if something increases your logic for all purposes, it is subject to the augmented max. if it increases your logic for only certain purposes, it is not subjected to the augmented max, as a general rule.

likewise with skills: if it just flat-out gives you +X to a skill, it's subject to the bonus. if it gives you +X to a subset of dice rolls involving the skill (for example, a control rig gives +2 to dice rolls to all vehicle skills while rigging in full VR only, and does not apply to AR, remote control, directly operating the vehicle manually, etc) then it is probably just a dice pool bonus, imo.

(this is all imo, for the record... but that's how i understand it)
KCKitsune
Quick stupid question for everyone here: if I have a character with strength 1 and I wanted to get muscle augmentation 1, is this valid?
Phylos Fett
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 26 2009, 03:44 PM) *
Quick stupid question for everyone here: if I have a character with strength 1 and I wanted to get muscle augmentation 1, is this valid?


The rules for such things in the past, IIRC, have always been that 1 level of improvement has always been allowed.
Ryu
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 26 2009, 06:44 AM) *
Quick stupid question for everyone here: if I have a character with strength 1 and I wanted to get muscle augmentation 1, is this valid?

The augmented attribute is not capped by your natural attribute, but your natural attribute maximum*1.5. Even Strength 1 + Muscle Augmentation 4 would be legal.

Combat Sense provides bonus dice to reaction for specific tests (not capped), the MBW provides a bonus to reaction itself (capped).
Glyph
A little clarification to what Jaid said - dice added to skills don't count as modifying the rating if they are referred to as a dice pool bonus, even if the bonus does apply to all circumstances. Reflex recorders add to the skill rating; synthcardium adds a dice pool bonus, even though you get those bonus dice all of the time.
Dakka Dakka
If the MBW really increases reaction instead of giving a bonus when using this attribute, why is the system compatible with reaction enhancers? Only Rating 1 could always profit from this combination.
Wombat
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 26 2009, 01:14 PM) *
If the MBW really increases reaction instead of giving a bonus when using this attribute, why is the system compatible with reaction enhancers? Only Rating 1 could always profit from this combination.

I had some confusion on MBW as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but MBW adds +2 Reaction, +1 Dodge, and +1 IP per level. So the break-down would be:
Level 1
  • +2 Reaction
  • +1 Dodge
  • +1 IP
  • Skillwires R:2

Level 2
  • +4 Reaction
  • +2 Dodge
  • +2 IP
  • Skillwires R:4

Level 3
  • +6 Reaction
  • +3 Dodge
  • +3 IP
  • Skillwires R:5

Since Reaction Enhancers are compatible with most other Initiative boosters, a character with Base 2 Reaction could have Level 3 Move-by-Wires, boosting his Reaction from 2 to 8, and still take a point of Reaction Enhancers.

So the answer to your question, I think, is because the core of the MBW system is really just a program that monitors and controls muscle movement, while Reaction enhancers are spinal modifications that decrease the time for electrical impulses to travel from the brain(or the processor for the MBW system) to the rest of the body and back.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 26 2009, 04:59 AM) *
in other words, if something increases your logic for all purposes, it is subject to the augmented max. if it increases your logic for only certain purposes, it is not subjected to the augmented max, as a general rule.

No.

Even if it's temporary (drugs), conditional (bone lacing), or you are able to disable it (wired reflexes) - if it adds to an attribute or provides a bonus to the attribute (contrary to providing bonus dice) it is subject to the cap.

Simply because the effect is achieved by increasing the attribute and the attribute can't rise above the augmented maximum.
Jaid
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 26 2009, 08:42 PM) *
No.

Even if it's temporary (drugs), conditional (bone lacing), or you are able to disable it (wired reflexes) - if it adds to an attribute or provides a bonus to the attribute (contrary to providing bonus dice) it is subject to the cap.

Simply because the effect is achieved by increasing the attribute and the attribute can't rise above the augmented maximum.

if you look at context, you'll see that by "all the time" i mean "if it applies to every use of the skill/attribute".
Glyph
Bone lacing does NOT increase the Body Attribute. The wording is a bit clumsy, but it is still obvious that all it does is give extra dice for damage resistance tests. Period. It doesn't help you with athletics tests, it doesn't help you resist poison gas, and it doesn't let you wear more armor.

I do agree with the original poster that phrases like that do give some ambiguity as to whether something is a dice pool bonus or an actual increase, and I wish they used the terms (dice pool bonus vs. increase) more consistently. Compare the Toughness quality - that's how bone lacing/augmentation should have been phrased.
Marduc
There is a subtle difference between a bonus and raising the attribute, that comes to play when you split your dice pool. example
You shoot with two pistols in the same initiave pass. Then you have to split your base dice pool (pistols+agility) and add to each the correct boni, smartlinked, laser sight, ect...

Also boni don't add to you augmented max of a skill or attribute, as they don't raise it directly.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 27 2009, 05:33 AM) *
if you look at context, you'll see that by "all the time" i mean "if it applies to every use of the skill/attribute".

And that is not the case. You can't increase an attribute over the augmented maximum, even if it's temporary/conditional/selectable - thtat's the whole point of hard caps. Exceptions are explicitly noted, like Arsenal, p. 51, Strength Upgrade.

QUOTE (Marduc @ Feb 27 2009, 10:44 AM) *
There is a subtle difference between a bonus and raising the attribute, that comes to play when you split your dice pool.

No, there's certainly not when it comes to the Augmented Maximum.

And even if splitting dice pool, as soon as the bonus dice are counted to the attribute or the skill, they are factored in before splitting the dice pool - only modifiers are factored in afterwards.
QUOTE (Marduc @ Feb 27 2009, 10:44 AM) *
Also boni don't add to you augmented max of a skill or attribute, as they don't raise it directly.

You are mixing up 'boni to an attribute/skill' with 'bonus dice', sorry. The latter are not subject to caps, the former, on the other hand, is - those work by modifying the attribute.

QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 27 2009, 05:44 AM) *
Bone lacing does NOT increase the Body Attribute.

By RAW, it does, as does Bone Density - even if it's conditional.
QUOTE
[...]bonelacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute[...]

QUOTE
Increase the recipient€™s Body by the bone density rating[...]


QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 27 2009, 05:44 AM) *
The wording is a bit clumsy[...]

The wording is the same as for the wired reflexes:
QUOTE
[...]wired reflexes confer a bonus of +1 to Reaction[...]

QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 27 2009, 05:44 AM) *
[...]but it is still obvious that all it does is give extra dice for damage resistance tests.

The word 'dice' in fact is not even there in RAW.
Malachi
QUOTE (Marduc @ Feb 27 2009, 05:44 AM) *
Then you have to split your base dice pool (pistols+agility) and add to each the correct boni, smartlinked, laser sight, ect...

This is a poor example as SL and LS bonus' are specifically disallowed when wielding multiple weapons.
ElFenrir
As far as we've always played it and known it, AND read it on the forums, Bone Lacing in SR4 does not add to the Body attribute directly. It's just damage resistance. A human can have Body 6, a Suprathyroid(7), and Titanium Bone Lacing, and roll 10 dice to resist damage.

Perhaps a dev can shed light on this, but as far as I know, Bone Lacing does not add directly to Body.

Another reason that leads to this is how it's recorded on character sheets. Someone with Muscle Toner or Reaction Enhancers, for example, is recorded as Agility 4(6) or Reaction 5(6) and whatnot. Someone with Bone Lacing is usually recorded as Body: 5(+2 damage.) It's like the Dwarf's Body Bonus for diseases. Dwarves get +1 Body, yes, but that +2 dice to Body tests(which it's listed as) to resist diseases and toxins does NOT help them resist damage-just like Bone Lacing does not add health boxes or help with poisons or diseases. A Dwarf's augmented max Body is still 10.

I don't even see any example characters/contacts with Bone Lacing where it's listed as Body 3(5) or whatnot. Yes, there are some mistakes in the books but I don't think that every one of these was mistook. I always knew:

Suprathyroid: Increases stats directly.
Toner/Augmentation/Replacement: Same
Reaction Enhancers/Reaction bonuses from Wires/Boosters: Same.
Synthacardium: Does not add directly to the skill. Not subject to cap.
Combat Sense: Same.
Adept Power Improved Ability: Subject to caps. Adds to skill. Same for Reflex Recorder.
Kinesics: Not subject to cap, adds dice.
Smartlink: Adds dice.
Bone Lacing: Adds dice for damage resistance ONLY. Not extra boxes, not lifting, not Athletics, nothing but damage. Has never, to my knowledge, been subject to cap, and even if it was, it would be houseruled out unless it gave other bonuses like the rest. (then again, we houserules out augmented caps anyway, subject to a few other little adjustments, like greater cost to go above said caps.)
Pathogenic Defense/Toxin Extractor: Only adds dice to resistance tests, like Dwarves. Confers no other Body bonus, not subject to caps.

Again, if Bone Lacing said: ''Gives +X to Body. (Period.)'', then I would say it's subject to the cap. Otherwise, no.

EDIT: Quoting the RAW like this, though:

QUOTE
[...]bonelacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute[...]


You cut out the important:

QUOTE
...for damage resistance tests.


Where with Reaction:

QUOTE
[...]wired reflexes confer a bonus of +1 to Reaction[...]


it says:

QUOTE
...and +1 Initiative pass per point of rating.


There is no ''For Dodge tests only'' ''For Initiative tests only'' or anything, thus, it's a bonus to Reaction.

However, I would say, that if it is how it looks(Ie, just a bonus for damage resistance), the wording SHOULD be ''adds X dice for damage resistance.'' If it gives a pure Body bonus, it should say ''Adds X to Body.''
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Feb 27 2009, 05:18 PM) *
As far as we've always played it and known it, AND read it on the forums, Bone Lacing in SR4 does not add to the Body attribute directly.

Just that's not RAW. Per RAW, it modifies Body in case of Damage Resistance.
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Feb 27 2009, 05:18 PM) *
You cut out the important

Nope - it modifies Body and thus is subject to the cap... even if conditionally.

Bone Lacing uses the 'bonus to attribute' wording, Bone Density the 'add to attribute rating' - and both wordings are used in cases an Augmented Attribute is created.
Mx
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 27 2009, 06:47 PM) *
Just that's not RAW. Per RAW, it modifies Body in case of Damage Resistance.

Nope - it modifies Body and thus is subject to the cap... even if conditionally.

Bone Lacing uses the 'bonus to attribute' wording, Bone Density the 'add to attribute rating' - and both wordings are used in cases an Augmented Attribute is created.

I think your wrong, but there are only very few cases where the cap wuold have some effect.
So most of the time it doesn't matter if it's subject to the cap or not, as body is very hard stat to augment.
ElFenrir
You do have a point, Mäx...this cap even ever coming into play would be very, very, very rare(even if it is the case, which I still think it's not. I would like an FAQ clarification on it, since it seems that there are several differing opinions.) The one example I stated is actually rather rare; I don't think I've ever seen, at my table, a human or elf with a natural body of 6(5's plenty of, never 6), and that+suprathyroid is one of the only cases.

There's mage spells, but again, rare. I suppose an adept with Improved Body + whatever + Bone Lacing trying to make a tank, but again...very rare.

Again, I'd like a dev clarification since there is just too many differing opinions on how to read the RAW. I know RAW is RAW but something's a bit off if 10 different people read it differently.
Dakka Dakka
Yes, BOD 6 is rare, but exceeding the cap is a lot easier if you add to the suprathyroid gland an adrenaline pump.
Mx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 27 2009, 08:22 PM) *
Yes, BOD 6 is rare, but exceeding the cap is a lot easier if you add to the suprathyroid gland an adrenaline pump.

Adrenaline pump doesn't add to Body, only to Strength,Agility, Reaction, and Willpower.
Nova
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 26 2009, 01:39 AM) *
The augmented attribute is not capped by your natural attribute, but your natural attribute maximum*1.5. Even Strength 1 + Muscle Augmentation 4 would be legal.

Combat Sense provides bonus dice to reaction for specific tests (not capped), the MBW provides a bonus to reaction itself (capped).


Nein. On p62 of the basic rulebook

QUOTE
During gameplay, players can spend Karma to improve character attributes (see Character Improvement, p. 263). Improving an attribute increases both the natural and augmented
ratings


So I am pretty sure your augmented attribute IS capped by your natural attribute. As you raise the natural, the augmented increases as well...
ElFenrir
I think what they mean by that is this:

Someone has Agility 4(6).

Increasing the Natural Attribute to 5 also increases the Augmented Rating(to 7 in this case.) (Note how they didn't say Augmented Maximum.)
Muspellsheimr
Rules as written, Bone Lacing/Density provide a conditional modifier to the Body attribute, but it remains a modifier to the attribute, & thus is subject to the Augmented Maximum. I do not believe this is how it was intended to work, but with the current rules, is how it works.
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