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Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
I've developed a possible blood mage character for an upcoming game, and I'd like to get your input on playing a character that almost every single person will hate.

As far as backstory goes, I've loosely generated one. A male human Awakens, and searches for a way to control and understand his power. The first entity to find him is a rather malevolent trickster free spirit, who decides to mess with the character's life by teaching him the Sacrifice metamagic (already approved and accounted for in character creation by the GM). The PC then follows a series of events that are yet to be determined, and eventually begins running.

Mechanically, it seems that it takes between two and three IP to properly cast a blood magic powered spell in combat. The character hits someone with a crossbow bolt filled with either Slab or Laes, hopefully knocking them out. Since they are unable to resist (and that hopefully counts as subdued), he cuts them and then the DV of the cut is taken off the drain of the spell, which will be overcast on the next pass. I've done some practice rolls while sustaining Improved Reflexes and he's still capable of throwing a force 16 ball lightning spell out and only sustaining two to five physical damage.

I've already decided to pass notes to the GM telling him to double or triple the force of whatever I actually decide to cast at. I'm still trying to find ways to hide the process of knocking someone out and cutting them, though. Any suggestions for that?
TBRMInsanity
Talk with your GM but I would say you should develop a combat style that uses swords and lace them with a toxin that would render someone uncontentious.

The key to this type of character will be to roleplay it properly. You will have to make sure that no one besides you and the GM know your character's history. If you play with flaws I would add "Dark Secret" to your character. If your secret comes out the GM should punish anyone who doesn't try to kill your character.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Feb 26 2009, 04:56 PM) *
If your secret comes out the GM should punish anyone who doesn't try to kill your character.


What is said person is adequately pragmatic like myself, and figure said victims would wind up dead one way or the other, and so doesn't really care?
What if the mage only uses it to summon and bind really kick up spirits in the middle of a cattle slaughter house so only the cows are being victimized, and would still be edible afterward.
toturi
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Feb 27 2009, 07:56 AM) *
Talk with your GM but I would say you should develop a combat style that uses swords and lace them with a toxin that would render someone uncontentious.

The key to this type of character will be to roleplay it properly. You will have to make sure that no one besides you and the GM know your character's history. If you play with flaws I would add "Dark Secret" to your character. If your secret comes out the GM should punish anyone who doesn't try to kill your character.

Eh? Why punish someone for not trying to kill the character? So if Timmy the street punk knows that Mr Wiggles is a bloodmage and doesn't try to kill him despite being outclassed, the GM nukes him anyway? I do not understand this.

QUOTE
What if the mage only uses it to summon and bind really kick up spirits in the middle of a cattle slaughter house so only the cows are being victimized, and would still be edible afterward.
There is no cow level! MOO!
Ed_209a
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 26 2009, 08:47 PM) *
Eh? Why punish someone for not trying to kill the character? So if Timmy the street punk knows that Mr Wiggles is a bloodmage and doesn't try to kill him despite being outclassed, the GM nukes him anyway? I do not understand this.


Pop culture in the SR era has painted blood mages as real-life boogeymen. Like Nazis or terrorists today.

If you _knew_ that guy 3 doors down was planning to blow up a Walmart to glorify <insert extremist cause>, you may not rush in with a SMG in each hand, and headshot everyone in the room, but you would probably do something, even if just making a phone call to the cops.

Also, there is the little detail of Dunkelzhan's bounty on blood mages. In the context of Shadowrun, that would probably be enough. If one member of a team of professional killers suddenly got a 1,000,000 nuyen tag on their head, they would last a week at the most.



Mordinvan
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Feb 26 2009, 08:08 PM) *
Also, there is the little detail of Dunkelzhan's bounty on blood mages. In the context of Shadowrun, that would probably be enough. If one member of a team of professional killers suddenly got a 1,000,000 nuyen tag on their head, they would last a week at the most.


Only if said person does something bloodmagish and actually leaves survivors.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Feb 27 2009, 03:08 AM) *
Pop culture in the SR era has painted blood mages as real-life boogeymen. Like Nazis or terrorists today.

If you _knew_ that guy 3 doors down was planning to blow up a Walmart to glorify <insert extremist cause>, you may not rush in with a SMG in each hand, and headshot everyone in the room, but you would probably do something, even if just making a phone call to the cops.

Also, there is the little detail of Dunkelzhan's bounty on blood mages. In the context of Shadowrun, that would probably be enough. If one member of a team of professional killers suddenly got a 1,000,000 nuyen tag on their head, they would last a week at the most.

The character in question isn't a bad guy; he was just taught to use and control his magic by a malevolent spirit. He won't be out to kill for no reason.

Still, the bounty angle is something I had forgotten about. Looks like he'll be reserving blood magic for "oh shit" moments, and not every single time he can get away with it.

QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Feb 27 2009, 03:41 AM) *
Only if said person does something bloodmagish and actually leaves survivors.

Well, he'll probably want the rest of his team to survive. But they most likely will not be comfortable with a blood mage around.
kzt
There are one or two characters I've run that wouldn't have given a damn, as long as they were sure he was on their side. Most of the rest would have traded him for the cash. Either because that's a LOT of money or because blood mages are just wrong.
Hagga
QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 27 2009, 06:04 AM) *
There are one or two characters I've run that wouldn't have given a damn, as long as they were sure he was on their side. Most of the rest would have traded him for the cash. Either because that's a LOT of money or because blood mages are just wrong.

Only as wrong as committing crimes for cash. Is it really that different if your mage runs howling down toward the opponents, guts one and then turns and slams a manabolt into the next one using the life force of the old one? Compared to gutting one, then slamming a non-lifeforce powered manabolt into another?
Starmage21
Also, without any specific rotes to go through (this aint D&D) aside from actually cuttng the dude emo style and making him bleed, how the hell are the mundanes to know? All theyre going to see is their assfuck crazy mage run up and try to destroy someone, then turn around to cast a spell at another one.

The ONLY thing I see working against any mundane ever discovering what exact techniques their mage is using is using really fuzzy logic applied to the thematics of high-force spells.
PERHAPS Said Blood-Mage cuts guy #1, only to turn around and cast a high-force spell at guy #2. Since the spell is high-force, the mundanes can see visual cues from the mana-storm being released by their mage. Is it possible that they might notice that the mana-storm soon-to-be F16 Powerball spell is also drawing mana from the flowing blood of Guy #1(instead of coming from the mage from their point of view)?
BIG BAD BEESTE
Most PCs would probably want the bounty if they knew what you were. But then there's also the fear factor. Yuh-huh - he's not only a spooky fragging magician who can fireball or ritually turn us into goo, but he's using fraggin' blood magic too! Not someone you'd want to cross at all. Then again, I've a couple of players who'd be content to team up with one provided they worked in the team's benefit. After all, they'd probably work with Tanamous ghouls organlegging schoolkiddies via laes-laced ice cream vans if there was a nuyen in it for them. They'd also have a nice blackmail dossier on the blood mage too though - just as a security precaution wakarimasu-ka chummer?

If your other players wouldn't cope with your charater, then I'd suggest changing it, or at least bringing over the unfortunate tradition teachings and his efforts to overcome them. Otherwise, don't be too surprised if they discover your secret and turn about and geek you on the spot. Passing secretive notes with the GM and trying to avoid group contact/teambuilding with the other players is often detrimental to good games.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE @ Feb 27 2009, 02:10 PM) *
If your other players wouldn't cope with your charater, then I'd suggest changing it, or at least bringing over the unfortunate tradition teachings and his efforts to overcome them. Otherwise, don't be too surprised if they discover your secret and turn about and geek you on the spot. Passing secretive notes with the GM and trying to avoid group contact/teambuilding with the other players is often detrimental to good games.

Notes are fine in our games, and he won't be avoiding group contact or teambuilding.
Kanada Ten
My main problem with the scenario as laid out is the irreverence given to the actual ritual. Blood magic shouldn't be like chugging a Red Bull or popping a pill. It's a goddamn magical ritual, a sacred act where the lifeblood of one is given for another. Treating it like a slap-patch is really killing the flavor for me; though the thought of a twisted troll pulling a pixie from his belt pouch and crushing it in his hand to crush the runners with some nasty juju has a nice feel. Afterwards, he brushes the dust from his hand and tells his ghoul jester to clean up bodies. Anyway, I just think picking any random victim as sacrifice material and popping them with Narcojet doesn't do justice to the magic, regardless of the mechanics.

.02 nuyen.gif
Starmage21
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 27 2009, 03:30 PM) *
My main problem with the scenario as laid out is the irreverence given to the actual ritual. Blood magic shouldn't be like chugging a Red Bull or popping a pill. It's a goddamn magical ritual, a sacred act where the lifeblood of one is given for another. Treating it like a slap-patch is really killing the flavor for me; though the thought of a twisted troll pulling a pixie from his belt pouch and crushing it in his hand to crush the runners with some nasty juju has a nice feel. Afterwards, he brushes the dust from his hand and tells his ghoul jester to clean up bodies. Anyway, I just think picking any random victim as sacrifice material and popping them with Narcojet doesn't do justice to the magic, regardless of the mechanics.

.02 nuyen.gif


Not anymore. It can be used ritually, but it's metamagic now, and that means it can be as quick and dirty as spellcasting can be. It has to be actually, because Sacrificing states that you have to cast the spell the round immediately following the bloodletting or it's lost.
Kanada Ten
I know it's a metamagic, and I know the spell has to be cast right then. It's the method of choosing and acquiring the sacrifice which is cheapening the flavor. And it's still a ritual, whether it takes a second to invoke the prayer, dance the dance, roll the bones, or cut the wrists: it should be done with reverence.
toturi
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 28 2009, 04:11 AM) *
I know it's a metamagic, and I know the spell has to be cast right then. It's the method of choosing and acquiring the sacrifice which is cheapening the flavor. And it's still a ritual, whether it takes a second to invoke the prayer, dance the dance, roll the bones, or cut the wrists: it should be done with reverence.

Actually if you go with the description in Street Magic, it does not matter how you do it. Reverence or not, as long as it draws blood, Sacrifice work. SR4 Sacrifice is not explicitly a ritual, in rule or in fluff.
Kanada Ten
Yeah, I know what the book says. And I don't care: 'cause it's lame. Human sacrifice should not be treated like a quickie mart, unless the magician in question is a Sterile Toxic or in a Berserker Rage. Canon be damned.
Sir_Psycho
I have an eclectic wiccan who seems to be at least slightly twisted through his adversarial relationship with his mentor spirit and a homicidal dark secret. I roleplay that he uses goats and chickens in sacrificial rituals occasionally when summoning spirits, binding magical items, etc. Maybe if I played him, he got a few initiations, he might pick up the Sacrifice metamagic and start using it on humans. His totem is the seductress, which explicitly notes the desire to lure people into impending doom.

how would mundane team-mates know what the hell blood magic looks like, anyway? How many shadowrunners have a magical background knowledge skill and could reliably drum up the hits to notice? Also, I think for many magicians, magic is a secret and personal thing. If I was running with a team, I'd be summoning and binding my spirits behind closed doors anyway.

Also, there's countless threads on DSF about how rare magicians are and how implausible it is for them to choose the career path of the shadowrunner. Imagine, you've been running with a magician for a while. Sure, he's a bit potty, but he's a fragging wizzer, and they're all like that, and he's been a valuable asset, hasn't he? And can you really judge? You were pointing your gun at the sec-guard too, safety off, ready to help his wife and child cash in on that life insurance policy. Is it so much worse that the mage slit the guy's throat and used his ebbing life force to summon a powerful spirit that helped your whole team escape? As a shadowrunner, can you really justify or afford to get on a moral high horse?

Personally, I would relish a blood magician in my games. I often find that in comparison to the really out there stuff (such as blood magic), magic can often become mundane, which really jars with me when I'm trying to illustrate a harsh dystopia. I like my magicians to be corrupted by their power, manipulated by alien metaplanar entities, sometimes against their wills, exposed to the sickness of the sixth world every time they open themselves to astral space, and feeling physical fatigue and pain every time they use their talent, because it's more interesting than being the guy with no cyberware who neatly knocks people unconscious by raising an eyebrow.

In particular reference to one of my final points, "feeling physical fatigue and pain every time they use their talent", is it so hard to imagine a magician, given a sense of self-importance and greed for power by his rare abilities, one day deciding "you know what? Why should I have to feel this pain? Aren't I special?" and then deciding to inlict the pain upon the insignificant.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 1 2009, 12:53 AM) *
I have an eclectic wiccan who seems to be at least slightly twisted through his adversarial relationship with his mentor spirit and a homicidal dark secret. I roleplay that he uses goats and chickens in sacrificial rituals occasionally when summoning spirits, binding magical items, etc. Maybe if I played him, he got a few initiations, he might pick up the Sacrifice metamagic and start using it on humans. His totem is the seductress, which explicitly notes the desire to lure people into impending doom.

how would mundane team-mates know what the hell blood magic looks like, anyway? How many shadowrunners have a magical background knowledge skill and could reliably drum up the hits to notice? Also, I think for many magicians, magic is a secret and personal thing. If I was running with a team, I'd be summoning and binding my spirits behind closed doors anyway.

Also, there's countless threads on DSF about how rare magicians are and how implausible it is for them to choose the career path of the shadowrunner. Imagine, you've been running with a magician for a while. Sure, he's a bit potty, but he's a fragging wizzer, and they're all like that, and he's been a valuable asset, hasn't he? And can you really judge? You were pointing your gun at the sec-guard too, safety off, ready to help his wife and child cash in on that life insurance policy. Is it so much worse that the mage slit the guy's throat and used his ebbing life force to summon a powerful spirit that helped your whole team escape? As a shadowrunner, can you really justify or afford to get on a moral high horse?

Personally, I would relish a blood magician in my games. I often find that in comparison to the really out there stuff (such as blood magic), magic can often become mundane, which really jars with me when I'm trying to illustrate a harsh dystopia. I like my magicians to be corrupted by their power, manipulated by alien metaplanar entities, sometimes against their wills, exposed to the sickness of the sixth world every time they open themselves to astral space, and feeling physical fatigue and pain every time they use their talent, because it's more interesting than being the guy with no cyberware who neatly knocks people unconscious by raising an eyebrow.

In particular reference to one of my final points, "feeling physical fatigue and pain every time they use their talent", is it so hard to imagine a magician, given a sense of self-importance and greed for power by his rare abilities, one day deciding "you know what? Why should I have to feel this pain? Aren't I special?" and then deciding to inlict the pain upon the insignificant.


Can I play in your game?
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Feb 27 2009, 04:41 AM) *
Only if said person does something bloodmagish and actually leaves survivors.

Ever heard that deads don't talk, chummer?
Well ever since the Awakening things got a bit different, while ghosts hounting the runners (and helping their enemies by gathering intelligence) are a danger for any team with bodycount the act of using blood magic should have a much higher chance of the victim returning as a ghost; just think about it, the blood mage didn't just kill the subject in a not-so-subtle way, the mage siphoned the subjects very life force to feed the spell's magic, even if inconscious at the time the subject's spirit must know at a fundamental level what kind of horror he/she had been put trought (just like cyberzombies know that they should be dead), that kind of experience could cause anyone's spirit to get mad at the mage, and having the mage estabilished a contact betwen the victim's lifeforce and his/hers own spirit (in order to discharge some of the drain), the ghost could find him/her/it-self unable to complete the transition to the afterlife until said link is destroied, end guess wich is the easiest way to do so.
hyzmarca
Blood magic isn't bad. Plenty of people use it. Blood magic isn't corrupting. It's a core part of many traditions. The Draco Foundation bounty on blood mages is less a bounty and more a job offer with a hefty sign-up bonus. They don't want to kill them, they want to do research.
Hagga
It isn't, though. Those who use it are almost exclusively twisted, and a Shadowrunning magician walks closer to that line than any other.
kzt
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 1 2009, 03:25 PM) *
Blood magic isn't bad. Plenty of people use it. Blood magic isn't corrupting. It's a core part of many traditions. The Draco Foundation bounty on blood mages is less a bounty and more a job offer with a hefty sign-up bonus. They don't want to kill them, they want to do research.

Cool, then he'll have a neat job and I'll have a million bucks and not have to put up with the freak any more. Everyone wins! grinbig.gif
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 2 2009, 12:37 AM) *
Cool, then he'll have a neat job and I'll have a million bucks and not have to put up with the freak any more. Everyone wins! grinbig.gif

That is, of course, if the freak doesn't try and geek you for handing him over as a bounty.
Sir_Psycho
If I was playing that blood magician, I'd take my GM aside and ask if I could keep roleplaying the character as he' at the Draco Federation. Then I'd keep up taking table time and leaving them without a magician on their team.
kzt
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 1 2009, 06:15 PM) *
If I was playing that blood magician, I'd take my GM aside and ask if I could keep roleplaying the character as he' at the Draco Federation. Then I'd keep up taking table time and leaving them without a magician on their team.

GMs who want a game to fall apart can try that. What do they get out of it? And it's one less magician, as we found over time more people playing mages and less playing cybersams.
hyzmarca
A smart GM just gives the Blood Mage a Day Job. Remember, because it's a negative quality you can't be fired unless you pay karma to buy it off, but they might jsut send a retrieval team after you if you're late.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Remember, because it's a negative quality you can't be fired unless you pay karma to buy it off

Sure you can be fired or just given indefintie unpaid leave. You can even then owe money back for those uniforms you've ruined or whatever. Just covert the BP to another negative quality. Making it as though you can't be fired and the income won't go away is absurd.
hyzmarca
I take the term wage-slave literally. If you don't report in for work they're going to send a SWAT team after you, capturing you alive if possible but dead is alright, and then sending you to a Contract Court which is a mere formality before subjecting you to some rather horrific punishment and forcing you to perform your job duties while being quartered in the dankest of dungeons under the watchful eye of a young adult dragon who couldn't get any better job than security guard and a cyberzombie with more guns than hands.

And that' just if you're a burger flipper. You don't want to know what they do to the people with important jobs when they skip work.
HappyDaze
Sounds more like Paranoia than any game of SR I've ever played (or run), but to each their own.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 1 2009, 09:25 PM) *
GMs who want a game to fall apart can try that. What do they get out of it? And it's one less magician, as we found over time more people playing mages and less playing cybersams.

I was being facetious, commenting that it doesn't seem right for the other players to force the mage to do up a new character sheet, especially if they're enjoying role-playing a blood magician, as long as the magician isn't ruining everyone else's fun.

There's a lot of runner types that could be valuable to some-one. Some characters have HMHVV, some play drakes, some play free spirits or AI. Many runners have a particular corp they pissed off who would pay a bounty for their capture. But it's valid for a team to sell of the blood magician?

Starmage21
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 2 2009, 06:19 AM) *
I was being facetious, commenting that it doesn't seem right for the other players to force the mage to do up a new character sheet, especially if they're enjoying role-playing a blood magician, as long as the magician isn't ruining everyone else's fun.

There's a lot of runner types that could be valuable to some-one. Some characters have HMHVV, some play drakes, some play free spirits or AI. Many runners have a particular corp they pissed off who would pay a bounty for their capture. But it's valid for a team to sell of the blood magician?


There are a lot of dickhead people who will actually try this crap, and then try to justify it as "playing his character". I always call bullshit on those peeps. Honestly, I dont let it fly when elected as GM. I tell them it aint happenin and if they want it to make sense they need to make a change to their character's personality to rationalize that.
GreyBrother
Well... yeah, it's dickery if they just kill the character off because the players don't like the concept.

The other side is something i experienced in a Werewolf the Apocalypse game some years ago. A new player joined and wanted to play a vampire instead of a werewolf (Not advisable). Yeah, we could've gone all "soft and cuddly" on it and ignore a centurylong War against the corruption of earth and the heralds of said corruption and let it do. So what?
Problem was that my character "suffered" from the Flaw of hatred against vampires, which the GM knew and i even pointed it out to him. Ruleswise there was a chance my character would fly into Berserkerrage and try to kill the bastard. And there wasn't any way you could rationalize it. It would've been perfectly in character to say "no roll needed, he throats the leech". My GM played the Flaw down.

I'd say, if nobody in the group actually has something against bloodmages and their only reason to sell him out would be "Yeah well... he is evil." then talk to the players about it... if they actually find out one day. How i read it, the character would actually look for "redemption" on his own. If he realizes that, give him another metamagic technique to compensate and explain it fluffy.
Starmage21
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Mar 2 2009, 01:27 PM) *
Well... yeah, it's dickery if they just kill the character off because the players don't like the concept.

The other side is something i experienced in a Werewolf the Apocalypse game some years ago. A new player joined and wanted to play a vampire instead of a werewolf (Not advisable). Yeah, we could've gone all "soft and cuddly" on it and ignore a centurylong War against the corruption of earth and the heralds of said corruption and let it do. So what?
Problem was that my character "suffered" from the Flaw of hatred against vampires, which the GM knew and i even pointed it out to him. Ruleswise there was a chance my character would fly into Berserkerrage and try to kill the bastard. And there wasn't any way you could rationalize it. It would've been perfectly in character to say "no roll needed, he throats the leech". My GM played the Flaw down.

I'd say, if nobody in the group actually has something against bloodmages and their only reason to sell him out would be "Yeah well... he is evil." then talk to the players about it... if they actually find out one day. How i read it, the character would actually look for "redemption" on his own. If he realizes that, give him another metamagic technique to compensate and explain it fluffy.


Actually, in Werewolf there is a high-cost merit that grants the character an NPC vampire ally. Yeah vamps stink of the Wyrm, so theres a natural Garou dislike of them, but all that adds up to a mere stereotype. It exists for a reason yes, but that doesnt mean that they cant get along, even in the long-term.
In your case though, you had a flaw that precludes you actually growing to like said character. That doesnt mean you kill him the first time you get the chance. Comic books are filled with Hero-Villain team-ups and even Hero-Hero and Villain-Villain team ups that feature characters that hate each other with a passion, and somehow a task that is central to both gets completed through teamwork, and it's almost always a very interesting read.
Just because of your example, you fit perfectly in with those others accused of dickery, simply because you absolutely refused to consider another option that might have allowed another player to play the character he wanted to play.

This same situation exists for shadowrunners and blood-mages.
Kanada Ten
So one player making another player change his character is dickery, unless it's the other player?

Double standard much?
Starmage21
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 2 2009, 01:46 PM) *
So one player making another player change his character is dickery, unless it's the other player?

Double standard much?


No, I'm just saying that they have equal right to be there, and so something has to give.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 2 2009, 01:11 PM) *
No, I'm just saying that they have equal right to be there, and so something has to give.

And so which one's the dickhead for not wanting to change their character concept?
Starmage21
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 2 2009, 03:58 PM) *
And so which one's the dickhead for not wanting to change their character concept?


The one who has to make the smallest change for the sake of the group and refuses to. Who that is, exactly, is usually pretty evident. Especially when the amount of change required doesnt affect the overall whole much, versus the guy who now has present an entirely new concept to the GM.
Kanada Ten
LOL. Actually the answer is the GM for allowing the player to create a character that doesn't mesh with the rest of the group. Good guess though.
GreyBrother
I rest my case.
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