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PulseR
I have always assumed that when a Mage, Shaman or Technomancer loses Essence, Essence caps his Resonance or Magic attribute. But I have been reading the books and I can't find this anywhere.

Am I operating in an assumed fallacy? I only ask, because I recently obtained a copy of the DM Screens and the book that comes with it and upon pursuing the SR3 to SR4 Conversion rules, I came across the example of an Otaku that was being converted to a Technomancer. He had an Essence of 2.8 and therefore, could only have a Resonance of 2. he sacrificed 3 of his submersion grades to then raise his Resonance to 5.

What I ask is, should I allow my regular players to raise their Magic and Resonance with karma, beyond the Essence rating? Anyone have the rules in a digestable and easily searched form to see if the RAW forbids this or not?

All help will be greatly appreciated!
Glyph
Page 62 of the main book, under the Essence heading, states clearly that each point, or partial point, of Essence loss reduces the maximum Attribute rating for Magic or Resonance by one.

However, you can use submersion (for technomancers) or initiation (for mages) to raise the limit of Magic or Resonance by 1 for each level you take.

For example, a mage with a Magic of 6 gets some cybereyes. Due to the Essence loss, his Magic drops to 5, and his maximum also drops to 5. However, he initiates once. His maximum Magic is 6 again, so if he wanted to, he could spend Karma to raise his Magic back up to 6.
PulseR
Thank you so much! I have been slaving through the books and trying to find this and totally did not comprehend that. My players will be very ecstatic! One of my mages has been dying to get the new bioware and now he can and with a little work, can get his magic back up.
Crusher Bob
Also be aware that, by RAW, the cost to raise the magic attribute is based on the current magic cost. For example, if you had magic of 6, got a point of cyber ware (lowering it to 5), and then initiated, you'd only pay for going to magic 5->6; not magic 6->7. Though some house rule that the cost should include the lost magic point, and cost the increase from 5->6 to include the lost point, so the same price as magic 6->7.
Phylos Fett
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 27 2009, 02:52 PM) *
Page 62 of the main book, under the Essence heading, states clearly that each point, or partial point, of Essence loss reduces the maximum Attribute rating for Magic or Resonance by one.

However, you can use submersion (for technomancers) or initiation (for mages) to raise the limit of Magic or Resonance by 1 for each level you take.

For example, a mage with a Magic of 6 gets some cybereyes. Due to the Essence loss, his Magic drops to 5, and his maximum also drops to 5. However, he initiates once. His maximum Magic is 6 again, so if he wanted to, he could spend Karma to raise his Magic back up to 6.


I assume you mean maximum and current rating as per BBB p164.

QUOTE
Anything that reduces a character’s Essence will also reduce Magic. For every point (or fraction thereof ) of Essence lost, the character’s Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one. A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5. Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character’s Magic again until Essence drops below 5.
PulseR
Another quick question.

Is Essence Drain permanent? Does this mean that if a Vampire drains one point of essence from someone, that they permanently have 1 less Essence, forever?

That seems a bit harsh with no way to regain it...anyone have a House Rule that makes this less permanent but still severe? If not, I will be trying to figure one out myself. That is just too harsh.
Draco18s
Augmentation has a genetweak for regaining essence. It's bitch-expensive though, and returns 0.1 essence a month.

This does NOT return essence lost due to implants unless the implants are removed.
Andinel
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that any sort of essence loss is permanent unless it says otherwise or you restore it with gene therapy. I would houserule that it takes 1 month to regain a point of essence lost from an Essence Drain power, because otherwise it's just ridiculous.
Andinel
(Doublepost, ignore)
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Andinel @ Mar 3 2009, 08:42 AM) *
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that any sort of essence loss is permanent unless it says otherwise or you restore it with gene therapy. I would houserule that it takes 1 month to regain a point of essence lost from an Essence Drain power, because otherwise it's just ridiculous.

You've doubleposted.
Anyway in Augmentation there's a thing called Cellular Repair or something like that that is much cheaper than Revitalization (again I think that it was the name) and takes only few weeks, it gives back essence lost to drugs, illness, critter powers, but not implants.
TheOOB
It should be noted that even with gene therapy you cannot undo the damage to your magic/resonance score. Even if you restore your essence, your lowered supernatural ability cap remains.
Cardul
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 3 2009, 05:26 AM) *
It should be noted that even with gene therapy you cannot undo the damage to your magic/resonance score. Even if you restore your essence, your lowered supernatural ability cap remains.


Erph? I thought the rule was your maximum magic is your Current Essence(round down)+ Initiation Grade. So that you could regain your magical potential...you would just have to pay the Karma to get the Magic back.
Draco18s
Hm. That's a good point. I always thought your Magic Cap remained reduced, but you're right, you might lose Current Magic and that doesn't come back.

FUQ it?
InfinityzeN
They specificly state that they do not restore the magic cap. Unless a new FAQ came out. I answered this in a different thread a month or two ago.
Draco18s
That's what I've assumed.
TBRMInsanity
I've got a related question. I know in pre SR4 that your magic started off at 6 (to match your essence) but now in SR4 you can start off will less magic/resonance then your essence. Does this mean that you need to go through initiation to raise your magic up to match your essence? Or are there separate rules for increasing your magic up to your essence and then initiation to take your magic beyond your essence?
Dashifen
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Mar 3 2009, 10:02 AM) *
I've got a related question. I know in pre SR4 that your magic started off at 6 (to match your essence) but now in SR4 you can start off will less magic/resonance then your essence. Does this mean that you need to go through initiation to raise your magic up to match your essence? Or are there separate rules for increasing your magic up to your essence and then initiation to take your magic beyond your essence?


Magic (and Resonance) can be raised like any other attribute up to your Maximum Attribute Rating, which for both of them is 6 unless you Initiate/Submerge. Unlike earlier editions, Initiations and Submergence don't automatically increase your Magic Attribute, only your Maximum Magic Attribute. Thus, you could have a Magic of 6 with a Maximum of 6. When you Initiate, you end up with 6 out of 7 and have to pay with Karma as normal to raise your Magic from 6 to 7.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Mar 3 2009, 10:09 AM) *
Magic (and Resonance) can be raised like any other attribute up to your Maximum Attribute Rating, which for both of them is 6 unless you Initiate/Submerge. Unlike earlier editions, Initiations and Submergence don't automatically increase your Magic Attribute, only your Maximum Magic Attribute. Thus, you could have a Magic of 6 with a Maximum of 6. When you Initiate, you end up with 6 out of 7 and have to pay with Karma as normal to raise your Magic from 6 to 7.


Thanks for clearing that up for me. rotate.gif
Metapunk
is it only maximum magic that is reduced? not current magic also?

Meaning if I have magic 5 and gets myself a nice cerebral booster worth 0,4 essence, I would only have my max reduced to 5? or would I reduce my magic to 4?

I have been in doubt about this alot and this might help a player in my game ALOT.
Andinel
No. When Essence is reduced, both current and maximum Magic/Resonance are reduced accordingly.
TBRMInsanity
It would be interesting from a story point of view if it only reduced your maximum rating (and if your max was reduced bellow your current rating then your magic was reduced). This would play well into the idea that a person wouldn't think that cyberware could hurt them till it was too late (reminds me of Cybermancine and the story of the mage that becomes burnt out).
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 3 2009, 10:26 AM) *
It should be noted that even with gene therapy you cannot undo the damage to your magic/resonance score. Even if you restore your essence, your lowered supernatural ability cap remains.

In the Revitalization (the one that can repair aura damage from implants and has a rate of healing of 0.1/month) description is stated clearly that the maximum magic/resonance reduction stayes in place, on the other hand Cellular Repair (the one that can't repair essence lost to implants) lacks that statement enterely meaning that it brings up the cap; in the end Cellular Repair is for repairing damage from accidents and critter powers, things that would screw up awakened/emerged characters big time (potentialy making the GM an asshole) if not reparable, while being unable to repair essence lost to implants (thing that the 99,99% of times is due to a player choise).
Also remember that even if Cellular repair restores the cap it won't help if the awakened/emerged had permanentely burn out/faded due to magic/resonance dropping to zero.
InfinityzeN
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Mar 3 2009, 02:01 PM) *
It would be interesting from a story point of view if it only reduced your maximum rating (and if your max was reduced bellow your current rating then your magic was reduced). This would play well into the idea that a person wouldn't think that cyberware could hurt them till it was too late (reminds me of Cybermancine and the story of the mage that becomes burnt out).
That is a house rule that more than a few people use, I am sure.
TBRMInsanity
Now that I think of it if Essence loss took away from The Max rating of your Magic/Resonance rather then directly from your Magic/Resonance itself (until the Magic/Resonance rating was equal to your max rating) then that would make Essence drain dangerous rather then horrific. I suppose that could be a house rule, then vamps couldn't easily neutralize the mage/technomancer right off the bat.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Mar 3 2009, 01:37 PM) *
Now that I think of it if Essence loss took away from The Max rating of your Magic/Resonance rather then directly from your Magic/Resonance itself (until the Magic/Resonance rating was equal to your max rating) then that would make Essence drain dangerous rather then horrific. I suppose that could be a house rule, then vamps couldn't easily neutralize the mage/technomancer right off the bat.

QUOTE (SR4 p.288)
Draining a point of Essence takes a Charisma + Magic (10
– target’s Essence, 1 minute) Extended Test.
TBRMInsanity
@Muspellsheimr

I stand corrected. notworthy.gif
Degausser
I have a question:

In SR3, in the fluff text, it stated that the less Essence someone had, the less "human" they were (or Troll, or Elf, or whatever.) In other words it took away your metahumanity. You became despondent and less and less infused with the "spark of life." While it was flavor text, it was kinda a cool flavoring and gave some characters something to chew on. I knew a guy who played in SR 3 and chose to be a "Biosam" (Predominantly Bioware Street Sam) because he didn't want to loose too much of his soul (Remember, 3rd Ed Bioware didn't reduce your essence). Cool character concept.

Is that idea still in 4th ed? I haven't seen it around, but I would assume it is. Nothing that effects dice pools or anything, just thought it was neat little fluff and wondering if it made the conversion.
TBRMInsanity
I would expect it still to be true. That is the core concept of cyberware in SR. You are replacing yourself with a machine. The fact that they include bioware in the same category as cyberware is interesting, it indicates that the metahuman body is more sacred then previously thought. You can only manipulate the soul so much before it wants to go to the great beyond.
Draco18s
Bio reduces essence, but not as much as cyber.
You could still get that kind of concept, but the character would be "less" metahuman than unaugmented, but he'd see it as more of "I lose a little soul and gain lots of talent" or similar; a good bargain over the losses due to cyber.
InfinityzeN
And if you get too much Cyber/Bioware, the character can come down with Cyberpychosis.
Dashifen
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 3 2009, 04:57 PM) *
And if you get too much Cyber/Bioware, the character can come down with Cyberpychosis.


This is a negative quality in Augmentation, for those who may wonder. It's actually awesome for convention and one-shot play, less so for campaign, I feel. Essentially it's a -2 to all social activity and if you glitch a test you act inappropriately. Critical glitches mean you go berserk until the GM says your no longer chewing on the furniture.
InfinityzeN
There is a sidebar above it listing an Optional Rule in which people with less than 1 essence are required to roll in certain situations to avoid developing it. Very CyberPunk 2020 and I like'e. I made a Sammy with it for the 800BP thread, with one of his goals being to save enough money to upgrade his Cyberware Suite to Alpha or Beta (he is a Bioware Sammie mostly), which would bring his essence over 1 and 'Cure' him. Of course, it would also require a bit of roleplaying and 20 karma.
Mx
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 4 2009, 06:34 PM) *
There is a sidebar above it listing an Optional Rule in which people with less than 1 essence are required to roll in certain situations to avoid developing it. Very CyberPunk 2020 and I like'e. I made a Sammy with it for the 800BP thread, with one of his goals being to save enough money to upgrade his Cyberware Suite to Alpha or Beta (he is a Bioware Sammie mostly), which would bring his essence over 1 and 'Cure' him. Of course, it would also require a bit of roleplaying and 20 karma.

That wuold also requier lots of genetherapy as you don't get the lost essence back when removing ware.
InfinityzeN
Yea I know, but he only needs like 2 months worth since he is at something like 0.89 essence and only needs to break above 1.0 essence. He does have something ungodly like 8 points of Bioware (Type O system makes it pretty cheap).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Mar 4 2009, 09:59 AM) *
This is a negative quality in Augmentation, for those who may wonder. It's actually awesome for convention and one-shot play, less so for campaign, I feel. Essentially it's a -2 to all social activity and if you glitch a test you act inappropriately. Critical glitches mean you go berserk until the GM says your no longer chewing on the furniture.


Cybersam in my game has it, but also has some sort of Glamor which negates the DP penalty when in the flesh.
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