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Moomin
I've brought this upon myself in a way, I helped my friend write a gun adept character to be part of our team. The campaign we were playing fell through and now I'm having to GM this monster that I helped create. He's really skilled and has a bunch of adept powers and qualities that help with the shooting, I was really pleased with it when I thought he was going to be fighting with me.

Anyway, he's started using capsule rounds filled with power 10 knockout compound (I can't remember what it is, maybe Narcojet?). How does the combined damage work? We've been playing it that the capsule rounds inflict damage as gel rounds would, and then once the NPC has resisted against that they then have to resist 10DV on just their body (none of them have had chamical seal armour so far but I think it's going to become a lot more common soon). It's taking everyone down in 1 shot since he doesn't miss, is this right? I can't see where we're going wrong if it isn't.
Sir_Psycho
Capsule rounds are basically like paintball rounds, just plastic like membranes with a chemical cocktail in it. The actual damage they inflict is no-where near the impact of a bullet, because they don't penetrate, they splash and are absorbed through the skin (with DMSO to change the vector to contact).

I'm not positive on this, so don't hold me to it. But I'd rule that if the damage code of the gun (with an AP penalty, i'd assume) exceeds the damage resistance test, then the dose is administered, but don't actually tally the damage from the gun in.
crizh
QUOTE (Moomin @ Feb 27 2009, 03:56 PM) *
I've brought this upon myself in a way, I helped my friend write a gun adept character to be part of our team. The campaign we were playing fell through and now I'm having to GM this monster that I helped create. He's really skilled and has a bunch of adept powers and qualities that help with the shooting, I was really pleased with it when I thought he was going to be fighting with me.

Anyway, he's started using capsule rounds filled with power 10 knockout compound (I can't remember what it is, maybe Narcojet?). How does the combined damage work? We've been playing it that the capsule rounds inflict damage as gel rounds would, and then once the NPC has resisted against that they then have to resist 10DV on just their body (none of them have had chamical seal armour so far but I think it's going to become a lot more common soon). It's taking everyone down in 1 shot since he doesn't miss, is this right? I can't see where we're going wrong if it isn't.



You are indeed correct. Capsule rounds do the same damage as Gel, less the knockdown bonus, and Narcoject is immediate. It must be mixed with DMSO or this trick doesn't work.

If you check out the cost per bullet this isn't such a bad thing. And down is infinitely better than dead.

I was considering adding red theatrical dye to do simulated assassinations....
InfinityzeN
Correct but the cost per shot is going to be insane.
Browncoatone
Yeah I designed a girl gun bunny that used the same thing only she loaded it into a Morrissey Élan for those got-to-be-armed-but-guns-not-allowed situations. Ammo costs an arm and a leg though.
Tiger Eyes
We're working on getting capsule rounds filled with DMSO/Laes in our game... all the knockout benefits, plus they forget they ever saw us...
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
Alternatively, you could always deal with him by maiming. Have his hand be crushed by a troll, or some guy in augmented milspec armor. Maybe a stray round or grenade fragment blows off a couple fingers.

This depends on how your players and how you deal with damage - if you just tell them they suffer penalties, this would be an odd addition to the game. I've been attempting to maim and blow up my players from the start. For example, I used the cyber-arm/airburst link mentioned in a thread to detonate an HE grenade directly above a PC's street sam. Thanks to the chunky salsa rule, he came within a single combat turn of dying. He suffered from a broken left femur, a possible concussion, burns, a destroyed cyber-eye and [eventually] received 170 stitches on his face and chest.

I gave him agility, perception, and social penalties until the corresponding damage was fixed. He thought it was awesome.

Edit: I am going to have to do something to him again soon. He's an ambidexterous exceptional pistol fighter with 4 IP rolling 20 dice to shoot. He can make 16 shots in 4 IP if he splits his dice pool, and they all average between 8 and 10 damage. He may lose a hand or some of his guns.
Beetle
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Feb 27 2009, 06:26 PM) *
We're working on getting capsule rounds filled with DMSO/Laes in our game... all the knockout benefits, plus they forget they ever saw us...

That is a brilliant idea.
Moomin
Ok, seems we've been playing it right, I'll just have to wait for money to become too short for these rounds to be viable anymore, or have the NPC chemically protected sometimes.

I don't want to randommly break his fingers that seems too mean to me but there are 2 pretty major NPCs in my game he really pissed off, one of them would know hoow much it would hurt him and would definatly be up for crushing his hand. I did tell them a few sessions back that I was going to start using the optional damage rules in Arsenal for more serious injuries but he's a beefy orc packing heaps of armour so he doesn't take that many boxes of damage often.
crizh
Nantidotes or Genetic Immunity are both good counters to specific chemical tomfoolery.

Or if you want a wider counter-effect go with Universal Nantidotes @ Rating 9. Don't leave home without them.
Oenone
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Feb 27 2009, 11:26 PM) *
We're working on getting capsule rounds filled with DMSO/Laes in our game... all the knockout benefits, plus they forget they ever saw us...


Now there /is/ a good idea.

And I thought capsule rounds loaded with slab was nasty.... I'll have to use that trick the next time my players do something really stupid. Perhaps via a Tir special forces team with a DMSO/Laes water cannon....
Shinobi Killfist
I am probably going to be using them for my gang level character that I made since he is the chemist, drug maker of the group. I wanted to use the ares super squirt, but some game designer thought it would be a good idea to make a pistol that fired paint pellets a "special weapon". If you are going to do something lame and have the exotic weapon proficiencies in the game at least make them exotic enough that no other skill really fits it.
Jaid
the super squirt is just a watergun.

capsule rounds are completely different from the supersquirt, they are fired from normal guns, and do not require any special skill.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 28 2009, 11:07 AM) *
the super squirt is just a watergun.

capsule rounds are completely different from the supersquirt, they are fired from normal guns, and do not require any special skill.

So you are implying my children have "Exotic Weapon(water gun): 3" because they are getting pretty darn good with their squirt guns.
BishopMcQ
Yes, but they fall out of practice and lose the skill entirely throughout High School and College. It can be relearned by joining the appropriate Greek organizations.
TheOOB
Narco/DSMO capsule rounds are a great little trick, especially if you pack them in a light pistol with an internal silencer, electronic firing, and non-mental components. They will take out most targets in a single shot, and two will risk killing near anything.

That said, the price per bullet is so high that they won't be replacing other ammunition types anywhere near soon. I don't know how many runners can afford to use those with suppresive fire.
Browncoatone
QUOTE
can afford to use those with suppresive fire.


My Morrissey Élan isn't designed for suppressive fires.
Falanin
People targeted by a contact-vector toxin get impact armor to resist, at least if applied by a melee attack. (BBB 245)

As GM, I'd probably rule that capsule rounds suffer the same modifier, at least as opposed to a chem delivered by a gas grenade. [sarcasm](Yes, the gel will go right through your waterproof kevlar coat.) [/sarcasm] If you want to rule it that way, the capsule+Narcojet/laes+DMSO seems effective, but not as hugely overpowered as you have otherwise.

Granted, an additional (X, usually 10) DV hit per successful attack is BIG, but if you allow some armor, anyone above generic mook level will typically require at least the courtesy of a second shot. And hell, if that doesn't work, you can always hit them with capsule rounds of your own.
crizh
QUOTE (Falanin @ Mar 3 2009, 02:44 AM) *
People targeted by a contact-vector toxin get impact armor to resist, at least if applied by a melee attack. (BBB 245)

As GM, I'd probably rule that capsule rounds suffer the same modifier


Well that I'm happy to just flat out ignore. The RAW is quite clear.

However, checking that reference caused me stumble upon the text on the following page that states that immediate toxins take effect at the end of the current combat round. That dramatically reduces their effectiveness.
Shrapnel
I'd say let him have his fun...

He came up with a good character idea (with your help, no less...), so you shouldn't be too upset that he's proficient with what he chose to do. In fact, you should think of it as a compliment. notworthy.gif

He should keep in mind, however, that eventually he will meet up with a large group of armed thugs, say half a dozen or more, and will only be able to take down a few of them before they open fire... dead.gif

Don't design your game around countering the character's strengths. It's not a competition. Instead, just throw some normal, yet difficult, encounters at him to see how it plays out. vegm.gif

Have fun!
Phylos Fett
QUOTE (Wiggles Von Beerchuggin' @ Feb 28 2009, 09:42 AM) *
This depends on how your players and how you deal with damage - if you just tell them they suffer penalties, this would be an odd addition to the game. I've been attempting to maim and blow up my players from the start. For example, I used the cyber-arm/airburst link mentioned in a thread to detonate an HE grenade directly above a PC's street sam. Thanks to the chunky salsa rule, he came within a single combat turn of dying. He suffered from a broken left femur, a possible concussion, burns, a destroyed cyber-eye and [eventually] received 170 stitches on his face and chest.

I gave him agility, perception, and social penalties until the corresponding damage was fixed. He thought it was awesome.

Edit: I am going to have to do something to him again soon. He's an ambidexterous exceptional pistol fighter with 4 IP rolling 20 dice to shoot. He can make 16 shots in 4 IP if he splits his dice pool, and they all average between 8 and 10 damage. He may lose a hand or some of his guns.


Why would you allow an abomination like that in your game, just out of curiousity?!?
Crusher Bob
Don't immediate effect toxins still take a round to actually do damage? Just have the shootee fill them full of bullets before he has to go have a lie down.
crizh
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Mar 3 2009, 08:16 AM) *
Don't immediate effect toxins still take a round to actually do damage? Just have the shootee fill them full of bullets before he has to go have a lie down.



That's some echo in here....


Additionally you can't afford to double tap your target. He might go down at the end of the round or he might not. Shoot him twice and there is a good chance he'll never get up again. In which case you might as well have just plugged him with FMJ.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (crizh @ Mar 3 2009, 09:26 AM) *
That's some echo in here....


Additionally you can't afford to double tap your target. He might go down at the end of the round or he might not. Shoot him twice and there is a good chance he'll never get up again. In which case you might as well have just plugged him with FMJ.

Or maybe use S&S and possibly follow it with a spry of DMSO/laès (by the way in Arsenal at p.64 there are the Chemical cosmetics, they can deliver one or more chemicals and contain several doses; do you have to add the cost of the chemical multiplied for the number of doses to the cost of one of those things? Or you add it just once?).
TheOOB
If stealth is your game, either shock rounds or subsonic rounds should be your weapon of choice. Both can easily fill up most targets damage track with the two shots you'll get in one action, especially if you take aim and make a called shot. Subsonic rounds are, of course, less noisy, but shock rounds are non-lethal, and have a good chance of knocking the target out immediately for a round or two giving you a chance to make another shot should you not take them out.

DSMO/Nacro rounds have a delay(which gives them time to scream), are expensive, and can be thwarted by good toxin resistance(many corps would work to make their high value targets immune to the knock out drug of choice. Nacrojet is much better for OS moments or during combat when you really need 1 shot to equal 1 takedown.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 3 2009, 10:45 AM) *
If stealth is your game, either shock rounds or subsonic rounds should be your weapon of choice. Both can easily fill up most targets damage track with the two shots you'll get in one action, especially if you take aim and make a called shot. Subsonic rounds are, of course, less noisy, but shock rounds are non-lethal, and have a good chance of knocking the target out immediately for a round or two giving you a chance to make another shot should you not take them out.

DSMO/Nacro rounds have a delay(which gives them time to scream), are expensive, and can be thwarted by good toxin resistance(many corps would work to make their high value targets immune to the knock out drug of choice. Nacrojet is much better for OS moments or during combat when you really need 1 shot to equal 1 takedown.

question.gif What would "OS moments" stand for?
Mx
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Mar 3 2009, 12:43 PM) *
question.gif What would "OS moments" stand for?

Oh shit, ie. When the feces hit the propelling accelerator. grinbig.gif
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