Hunter's Arrow
Type: P Target: 4 Dur: I Range: LOS Drain: +1(DL+1)
Hunter Strike
Type: P Target: 4 Dur: I Range: LOS Drain: +1(DL+2)
Hunter's Arrow is an elemental manipulation spell what creates an arrow and sends it at a target, doing damage with a power equal to the spell's Force and a level chosen by the caster. If a living target takes damage, he/she must resist a stun poison with the same effects as Narcojet. Non-living targets do not have to resist poison if damaged, and may double their impact armor rating for resisting damage from the spell.
Hunter Strike is an area effect version of Hunter's Arrow which assaults an area within line of sight of the caster with darts, arrows, and spears which seem to come out of nowhere. As above, non-living target double their impact armor rating for resisting damage from the spell, and living targets must resist Narcojet-equivalent poisoning if damaged.
These spells are favored by predatory, combative, and hunter totems, idols, and loa (such as Shark, Wolf, Lion, Dragonslayer, Wild Huntsman, or Ogoun), and at the GM's discretion, a shaman using them may gain an additional D6 for the sorcery test if his/her totem is judged to be of that type, unless the totem already imparts a dice bonus for Combat Spells, in which case use that bonus instead. Conversely, peaceful or "prey" type totems, idols, and loa (such as Dove, Dolphin, Rat, Stream, Unicorn, or Agwe) disfavor these spells. If the GM allows the bonuses described above, then totems of this type lose a D6 on the sorcery test when casting this spell, unless they already have a disadvantage for Combat Spells, in which case use that modifier.
Any arrows, darts, or spears created by the spell dissapear after one combat turn, unless they are lodged in a target, in which case they dissapear one combat turn after being removed from the target.
Full Version: Spell Idea
Interesting, but leaving a few problems. Theoretically you could cast this at Buddy the Troll, who would then have a spear lodged in him that wouldn't do much damage, and who could then pluck the spear from his side and kick some arse for the rest of the three seconds. Actually, a shot at the tree next to Buddy would make more sense, as he still has three seconds...
Also, comparatively few people would take this. It suffers from the endemic problem of high Drain for something that can be done just as easily with a Stunbolt/ball but without the advantages of beneficial elemental effects. Still nice for flavour, though.
~J
Also, comparatively few people would take this. It suffers from the endemic problem of high Drain for something that can be done just as easily with a Stunbolt/ball but without the advantages of beneficial elemental effects. Still nice for flavour, though.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 9 2004, 06:32 PM) |
| Interesting, but leaving a few problems. Theoretically you could cast this at Buddy the Troll, who would then have a spear lodged in him that wouldn't do much damage, and who could then pluck the spear from his side and kick some arse for the rest of the three seconds. Actually, a shot at the tree next to Buddy would make more sense, as he still has three seconds... Also, comparatively few people would take this. It suffers from the endemic problem of high Drain for something that can be done just as easily with a Stunbolt/ball but without the advantages of beneficial elemental effects. Still nice for flavour, though. ~J |
I don't see the ability to use the weapon created for a few seconds as a problem.
As for a lack of elemental effect, the stun poison is the effect. Actually, you might say having a usable weapon for a little bit counts as an effect.
Also, like all elemental manipulation spells, its casting acts like a ranged combat test, which means the base TN is 4, not any attribute of a target. Yes, this means targets can dodge, but that allows for some strategy, as it depletes combat pool.
The spell is all about flavor, though. Thanks for the comments!
Fair enough; I suppose the little details that would make this spell abuseable at a lower drain code wind up balancing it a bit as it is 
~J
~J
The power of the poison should still be force(dl) stun.
Otherwise you can cast it at force 1L for 1M drain and do whatever damage narcoject does (6S or D stun right?) plus 1M physical far too cheaply.
Also is poison an elemental effect? I thought that was the perview of health spells.
Otherwise you can cast it at force 1L for 1M drain and do whatever damage narcoject does (6S or D stun right?) plus 1M physical far too cheaply.
Also is poison an elemental effect? I thought that was the perview of health spells.
The flavor of an arrow/dart/spear barrage spell is pretty cool, but I don't like the poison.
Rev:
| QUOTE |
| The power of the poison should still be force(dl) stun. Otherwise you can cast it at force 1L for 1M drain and do whatever damage narcoject does (6S or D stun right?) plus 1M physical far too cheaply. |
Except that a 1L arrow is not going to damage antyhing, and damage is required to transmit the poison. I do see you point, but really, what's you're describing is the whole idea behind hunting with a poison arrow or dart: you don't have to do a lot of damage, you just have to let the poison transmit. I thought that making the spell really only effective against living targets might be a balance for this, but maybe this is how the poison should act: it has a power equal to 1.5 times that of the spell and a damage level only one higher than the spell, in stun. That way, in the example you decribe, the spell would do 1L damage, and only 2M stun in the unlikely event that it actually hurts the target.
| QUOTE |
| Also is poison an elemental effect? I thought that was the perview of health spells. |
How many health spells create arrows and spears? I contend that it an elemental manipulation spell can make acid, it can make a little sleep poison.
Zazen:
The poison was just supposed to be an "elemental" effect in keeping with the flavor of the spell.
Ahh missed the part about needing to damage the target for the poison to work. I still think that no spell should cause damage at a power greater than its force (bah, there may well be one somewhere already though).
And yeah you can contend that a manipulation spell can do anything. That is the problem with them. Personally I think all the damaging manipulations should be combat spells, but do it however you want in your game.
And yeah you can contend that a manipulation spell can do anything. That is the problem with them. Personally I think all the damaging manipulations should be combat spells, but do it however you want in your game.
I think a Knockout Poison elemental manipulation would probably just be a wave of knockout poison, not arrows or whatever. I like the arrows, but creating something as complex as a poisoned arrow seems kinda like creating magical capsule rounds with narcoject/dmso in the tips. It just doesn't feel very magical.
Now if it were just arrows, the element could be wood instead
Now if it were just arrows, the element could be wood instead
Double elemental effect, stun toxin (only affects animal targets, stun), and wooden arrow (can affect anything a wooden arrow can damage, physical).
As with the other elemental manipulations, each part dissipates at the natural rate of such things. The toxin begins to become harmless at the end of the combat round, the arrow will decay in a few weeks.
Normally, the drain for such a thing would be painful (2 elemental effects, physical damage, LoS, etc.), but you might be able to convince the GM to drop the cost to that of a normal physical elemental manipulation if you agree to the toxin being injection vector.
As with the other elemental manipulations, each part dissipates at the natural rate of such things. The toxin begins to become harmless at the end of the combat round, the arrow will decay in a few weeks.
Normally, the drain for such a thing would be painful (2 elemental effects, physical damage, LoS, etc.), but you might be able to convince the GM to drop the cost to that of a normal physical elemental manipulation if you agree to the toxin being injection vector.
First, I dislike the idea of a spell causing two different damaging effects where either one can take out the target. One damaging effect and some side-effects appear to be the limit in the books.
Second, narcoject is a complex compound. So is snake venom and spider venom. I don't view the temporary creation of these as being within the realm of an "Elemental Effect". Blasts of air, steam, flame, lightning, ice bolts, and the noxious gases that come out of volcanos are all workable effects, not complex proteins or artificial chemical compounds.
Second, narcoject is a complex compound. So is snake venom and spider venom. I don't view the temporary creation of these as being within the realm of an "Elemental Effect". Blasts of air, steam, flame, lightning, ice bolts, and the noxious gases that come out of volcanos are all workable effects, not complex proteins or artificial chemical compounds.
| QUOTE (Rev) |
| Personally I think all the damaging manipulations should be combat spells... |
They are in my game. Too many non-combat totems give bonuses to Manipulation spells for my liking.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| Second, narcoject is a complex compound. So is snake venom and spider venom. I don't view the temporary creation of these as being within the realm of an "Elemental Effect". Blasts of air, steam, flame, lightning, ice bolts, and the noxious gases that come out of volcanos are all workable effects, not complex proteins or artificial chemical compounds. |
There are some rather complicated gasses that come out of volcanoes, but lets take a rather simple one: Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S). Cyanide (CN-) is just as simple, if not more so... so would you say that a reasonable elemental manipulation effect would be to create cyanide?
Now lets think about the acid/toxic wave spells... I dont know about you, but i cant think of any simple acids that would reduce a gun, suit of armor, or person to sludge in less than 3 seconds, even when completely saturated. that is really blindingly fast. Furthermore, even some mystical, magical acid that *does* operate that quickly would require dissolution in water -- does this mean that the acid-based elemental manip spells are actually using two separate effects (that of "elemental acid" and "elemental water" ?
i would say no to both of those. the elemental manipulations spells dont create any specific compound (except, perhaps, in the case of water elemental manips), rather, they create a magical thing that embodies what the caster thinks that sort of thing should do. acid melts things, so the elemental manip acid spell melts things, but its not Hydrochloric acid or Sulfuric acid, and probably not a lab-identifiable acid. using that interpretation, elemental poison would be a reasonable sort of thing to create, but it wouldnt be any specific poison, and its power/damage level would be determined at casting as with all other elemental manip. you would also have to come up with some sort of secondary elemental effect, something like splash damage or additional TN modifiers would be appropriate.
I do, however, think that is is within the capabilities of magic to create specific poisons, like narcoject or gamma-scopolamine or cyanide.. but, rather than an elemental manipulation, it would be either a Health spell or a transformation manipulation.
Finally, I'm not so sure about creating two specific, separate effects with a single spell. Is there any precedent for this?
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| would you say that a reasonable elemental manipulation effect would be to create cyanide? |
Cynaide, Arsenic, Methane, Lead, Gold would all be reasonable, in my judgement. I'd make the amount that gets produced be such that the spells are comparable in damage-causing ability to other Elemental Manipulation spells. These would be the primary affect of these spells. Lead and Gold poisoning both take a long time.
As to the speed of acid, I agree that the rules don't have a good way to handle damage that happens over a period of time. The most obvious lack is someone who gets shot, staggers away from the scene, and dies within 30 minutes of blood loss. The speed of acid damage seems a small issue compared to this.
Problem with a Create Gold or even Create Lead manipulation is the allowance for "free money" schemes. Create a thing of gold, sell it, live for a year off the proceeds, drive the price of gold down as time goes by.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Problem with a Create Gold or even Create Lead manipulation is the allowance for "free money" schemes. Create a thing of gold, sell it, live for a year off the proceeds, drive the price of gold down as time goes by. |
Which begs the question, since there's nothing theoretically stoping such a spell from being made, why hasn't someone already done this?
| QUOTE (GunnerJ) | ||
Which begs the question, since there's nothing theoretically stoping such a spell from being made, why hasn't someone already done this? |
Astral signature maybe? Simliar to the free spirit wealth power?
I don't follow.
I think my biggest problem with the spell is that, as others have pointed out, it lets the caster inflict damage in two different ways simultaneously. That's overpowered. I also don't like the idea of a spell that overrides Totem bonuses. Totem bonuses go by the category of spell (combat, manipulation, etc.). If you change it for this, why not let Fenrir shamans have their bonus dice for Fireball? Or use the Raccoon Totem's penalty for Combat spells in place of his bonus for Manipulation spells for that same Fireball? It pointlessly disrupts one of the mechanics of the game.
I don't mind Create Gold, or Create Lead, as instant damage-inflicting elemental manipulation spells that poison the blood. The created materials litter the ground till the end of the Combat Turn.
| QUOTE ("Elemental Effects @ P56,MitS") |
| Elemental Effects (+1 drain level) Elemental manipulation spells must have this modifier. An elemental manipulation spell can have more than one elemental effect, but this modifier applies for each and is cumulative. |
Give the spell primary stun damage and an extra elemental effect that makes it leave behind wooden spears and I think you have almost what you want. Keep away from it doing physical damage as part of the spell and you get the -1 drain power mod, taking the drain to +0(Damage Level+2).
| QUOTE |
| I think my biggest problem with the spell is that, as others have pointed out, it lets the caster inflict damage in two different ways simultaneously. That's overpowered. |
Could you justify this claim? Like, what is a "correct" level of power, to which we compare my spell idea and find it "over" powered? My point here is that the idea of what is an appropriate power level is entirely subjective, and care should be taken to make that fact explicit when commenting on the power level of an idea. Unless, of course, you'd like to validate some objective system of determining what the appropriate level of power is in all cases.
My standard of determining whether something is overpowered is to ask, "Would I allow my players to use it?" In this case, I'd have no problem with it. Personally, I think the fact that the spell is only useful against organic targets, and that drones and vehichles have double armor to resist the physical damage, is a fair balance. But again, for courtesy's sake, I'm making it clear that this is merely my own opinion.
| QUOTE |
| I also don't like the idea of a spell that overrides Totem bonuses. Totem bonuses go by the category of spell (combat, manipulation, etc.). If you change it for this, why not let Fenrir shamans have their bonus dice for Fireball? Or use the Raccoon Totem's penalty for Combat spells in place of his bonus for Manipulation spells for that same Fireball? |
The better question is: why would you allow those things? I think I made it pretty clear why certain totems gave advatages for this specific spell. If there's a good roleplaying- or flavor-related reason for allowing any of the things you rhetorically suggest, I would entertain the idea. For example, I don't classify elemental manipulations as manipulation spells for the purposes of determining dice bonuses for elemental mages. This is not something I do arbitrarily, it's done specifically so that Fire Elementalists get an advantage for fire elemental spells, as do Water Elementalists for water elemental spells, etc., and Earth Elementalists don't get an advantage for all of them.
| QUOTE |
| It pointlessly disrupts one of the mechanics of the game. |
While in general, I have appreciated the responses people have given me, even unfavorable ones, I'm dissapointed by the hyperbole in yours, Glyph. To say that it's "pointless" to have a non-standard spell like the one I've made is to ignore the fact that I rather explicitly outlined the reason why I made it: for flavor. Maybe you consider this frivolous, but that is merely an expression of your own opinion, and a poor reason to disregard it as a goal, or to claim that the complications offered by the spell are "pointless."
To close, I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback. While I don't agree with everyone's suggestions, many of your comments have been helpful. For those of you who dislike the idea of two forms of damage being inflicted, I'd like to point out that Magic in the Shadows states that secondary elemental effects "may... cause further damage" beyond that offered by the main effect (p. 51, MitS). If you're still uncomfortable with the idea of targets potentially having to soak physical and stun damage, but still like the general flavor of the spell, then perhaps you could simply state that the poison inflicts a target number modifier of some sort rather than dealing stun damage. Just and idea.
the poisoning effect should be based on the force of the spell.
given the drain level of the spell, i don't have a problem with the fact that it inflicts two types of damage.
given the drain level of the spell, i don't have a problem with the fact that it inflicts two types of damage.
When I said it was overpowered, I meant in comparison with the other spells in the rules, not in comparison with the general power level of a game. If I were running a 150 Build Point game with no Availability limits, I would still not allow that spell, as it now stands. It does two types of damage for the price of one spell, which I think is broken. To get the same effect within the current rules, a spellcaster would have to simultaneously cast two spells, splitting Magic Pool dice, rolling at a TN penalty, and having to resist Drain twice. Now, "overpowered" doesn't necessarily mean "bad for your campaign". Lots of campaigns have free spirit PCs and immortal elves, and seem to get along fine. But I still think it was the right word to convey my meaning.
Now, when I said it "pointlessly disrupts one of the mechanics of the game", I didn't mean it to sound as disparaging as you apparently took it. But I had a problem with one spell, and just one spell, getting to override an entire set of rules regarding how Magic and Totems work. If you do it differently in your games, then that's not so bad, and I can even understand your reasoning - wanting the individual spells to match the Totem as far as bonuses.
My apologies if it came off with the wrong tone, though. I was just trying to offer C&C for it, which to me, means pointing out what I saw as flaws in the spell. I was trying to be helpful, not insulting, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.
Now, when I said it "pointlessly disrupts one of the mechanics of the game", I didn't mean it to sound as disparaging as you apparently took it. But I had a problem with one spell, and just one spell, getting to override an entire set of rules regarding how Magic and Totems work. If you do it differently in your games, then that's not so bad, and I can even understand your reasoning - wanting the individual spells to match the Totem as far as bonuses.
My apologies if it came off with the wrong tone, though. I was just trying to offer C&C for it, which to me, means pointing out what I saw as flaws in the spell. I was trying to be helpful, not insulting, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.
I, personally, am not sure how broken it would be to let a spell do do two types of damage simultaniously.
I think I would allow a version that did both physical and stun damage based on the force of the spell. It'd be done by taking a generic elemental manipulation spell (wood) and applying an extra +1 drain level for the extra elemental effect (sleep poison). The final drain code would be +1(DL+2) or +1(DL+3) for the area effect version. Due to the harsh drain it may very well be easier and more effective to simply cast two spells at once.
An area spell can deal damage to two (or more) people simultaniously, how broken could it be to allow a single spell to inflict two types of damage to the same person? This spell is only more effective when the spear damage wouldn't kill someone anyway. You could subtract 1 from the wound level of the wood section or something so that you don't need to kill someone to knock them out. I suppose you could allow the sleep poison to bypass armor if the wood section did damage. That would be particularily powerful though.
As-for the totem mods thing: I think I'd stick with how the mods work right now, anything else can be decided between player and GM and shouldn't be defined in the spell description.
I think I would allow a version that did both physical and stun damage based on the force of the spell. It'd be done by taking a generic elemental manipulation spell (wood) and applying an extra +1 drain level for the extra elemental effect (sleep poison). The final drain code would be +1(DL+2) or +1(DL+3) for the area effect version. Due to the harsh drain it may very well be easier and more effective to simply cast two spells at once.
An area spell can deal damage to two (or more) people simultaniously, how broken could it be to allow a single spell to inflict two types of damage to the same person? This spell is only more effective when the spear damage wouldn't kill someone anyway. You could subtract 1 from the wound level of the wood section or something so that you don't need to kill someone to knock them out. I suppose you could allow the sleep poison to bypass armor if the wood section did damage. That would be particularily powerful though.
As-for the totem mods thing: I think I'd stick with how the mods work right now, anything else can be decided between player and GM and shouldn't be defined in the spell description.
Can't be done. You can't create matter out of nothing. That violates the law of conservation of mass-energy. Or I should say, you can transform energy into matter, but not very much matter. Even a half-pound arrow is equivalent to the amount of energy unleashed by a small atom bomb. The rulebook strictly prohibits violating the laws of physics. One of the less than stellar things about shadowrun.
So what does the spell "create food" do?
| QUOTE (Manipulation spell Drain table @ P55, MitS) |
| Major environmental change (create matter) M |
[edit]That was a response to Panzergeist rather than Herald's post. IE: 'Nuff said.[/edit]
Panzergeist: if magic, energy, and matter are interchangeable, then you can create whatever you want and it'll just cause a massive mana warp if it's too large. See the Magic: what can and can't it do for a more thorough discussion on the relation between magic and physics.
And IMO making physics apply to magic is one of the very good things about Shadowrun. Some of us are sick of the "um... because it's magic!" explaination.
~J
And IMO making physics apply to magic is one of the very good things about Shadowrun. Some of us are sick of the "um... because it's magic!" explaination.
~J
Create food? I've never heard of that spell. What book is it in?
MitS, 147.
Magic in the Shadows, page 147.
I don't like it, and so I got rid of it. Except in very special circumstances (elements, maybe some other misc stuff), I don't believe magic should be allowed to create matter. At least not complex organic stuff like Create Food is supposed to do.
[Edit]Damn I'm slow.[/Edit]
I don't like it, and so I got rid of it. Except in very special circumstances (elements, maybe some other misc stuff), I don't believe magic should be allowed to create matter. At least not complex organic stuff like Create Food is supposed to do.
[Edit]Damn I'm slow.[/Edit]
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| [Edit]Damn I'm slow.[/Edit] |
Only because you took the time to whine about the rules.
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